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[MisterJB]

 Mages wouldn't. Guards working for them, not the Chantry, would. Oversight would come from the local College/'Circle's' leadership, probably a Council of Enchanters or something.

Right, the people who are supposed to police the mages are those whose salaries are being paid by them.

Do you honestly don't see the potential for abuse here?

 

 Lyrium Addiction-Templars suffer extreme, adverse affects when they don't get regular lyrium doses. The Chantry has a monopoly on lyrium. Don't toe the line, suffer the consequences.

None of which means they have some biological conpulsion to adhere to any ideology. If anything, it's an alliance of convenience.

Mages are literally a walking portal into hell.

 

 

 1-Mages will always have a connection to the Fade, it's true, but the solution to this problem doesn't have to be a compulsory life imprisonment by a religious organization perfectly willing to use them for their own ends.

And yet, I have never seen a better one proposed.

 

 Proper training and respect for their abilities could work just as well (probably better) than having a Templar ready and willing to butcher you looming over you at all times.

And the two are mutually exclusive how?

They already receive a proper training and respect in the Circle while having guards with an interest in protecting the people of Thedas watching over them.

 

 2-Mages need training, and need to oversee each other.

And the people of Thedas are supposed to trust them because...?
 

 

 Templars with the absolute power of life and death

They don't. Templars can't even search their quarters without permission, much less kill a mage on a whim.

 

 

 Chantry that sees magic as both a curse and an opportunity to profit

This may be the third time I am saying this but the Chantry doesn't profit from mage circles. All revenue goes directly to the mages, WOG

 

 

 If a system of mage training existed that didn't mean losing your family, your autonomy, and possibly your mind (via Tranquility) existed, there would absolutely be fewer mages on the run, & more mages who could resist demonic temptation.

 

You know, I think I am just going to repeat what I said above.

 

 

2-Chantry and Templars are not the sole source of stress or fear in the world. Hunger, debts, bandits, sickness, slavers, unrequited love, the sources of pain in Thedas are literally without end. If you argument is that mages need to leave carefree lives that the people of Thedas don't enjoy in order for them to not harm others, then it is a self defeating one.

 

 

Despite the fact, as I said above, there are a million ways for a person to suffer from stress.

 

There is absolutely no reason to believe that fewer Templars would mean fewer Abominations.
And even if it did, it doesn't matter in the sligthest because of simple logic. Let's say with the Circle system, 4 out of 10 mages become Abominations and without it, 2 out of 10.

With the Circle system, those four Abominations are kept away from population centers and are surrounded by specially trained knigths who can respond to the threat within seconds. How many non-mage civillians died from Uldred's insurrection which involved innumerable demons and Abominations? Not one.

 

Without the Circle, those Abominations ocurr in the outside world. How many civillians died from Meredith's sister or Connor? Hundreds.

Therefore, even if the Circle system produced more Abominations, which has yet to be proven, it doesn't change the fact it is still, by far, the more effective system.

 

Furthermore, you are only taking into account the possibility of mages becoming Abominations without adressing the very real one of free mages coming to dominate society.

 

 You brought up Connor: if my system was in place, he wouldn't have become an abomination. Isolde would have happily sent him to be trained, knowing she wasn't going lose her son forever. She wouldn't have had to rely on Jowan, who wouldn't have been catfished by the First Enchanter by texts on blood magic or be afraid of being forced into Tranquility in the first place.

If your system was in place, the mages overlord of Thedas couldn't possibly care less if some hundreds of normal people are killed.

 

I mean, from what I am reading here, your sistem involves guards who are paid by mages and thus beholden to them, blood magic is allowed, Connor could inherit an Arling and there wouldn't even be Tranquility.

 

So, Tevinter.

[Lord of War]

1-Right, the people who are supposed to police the mages are those whose salaries are being paid by them.

Do you honestly don't see the potential for abuse here?

 

2-None of which means they have some biological conpulsion to adhere to any ideology. If anything, it's an alliance of convenience.

Mages are literally a walking portal into hell.

 

3-And the two are mutually exclusive how?

They already receive a proper training and respect in the Circle while having guards with an interest in protecting the people of Thedas watching over them.

 

4-They don't. Templars can't even search their quarters without permission, much less kill a mage on a whim.

 

5-This may be the third time I am saying this but the Chantry doesn't profit from mage circles. All revenue goes directly to the mages, WOG

 

6-If your system was in place, the mages overlord of Thedas couldn't possibly care less if some hundreds of normal people are killed.

 

I mean, from what I am reading here, your sistem involves guards who are paid by mages and thus beholden to them, blood magic is allowed, Connor could inherit an Arling and there wouldn't even be Tranquility.

 

So, Tevinter.

 

1-Mages police mages. The guards are there deal with problems, as directed, but that's honestly superfluous. Every system is open for abuse by its leadership, see the Templars, the Chantry, and the Orlesian Empire: magic doesn't uniquely create corruption, and an independent organization for mages would still be heavily scrutinized by society. It would be in their best interest to behave, and make sure internal problems are dealt with as quietly and efficiently as possible.

 

2-An "alliance of convenience." Where the Chantry controls everything, and holds all the cards. Right.

 

3-Hmm, how is it different to be threatened with death or a lobotomy after being forcibly kidnapped than receiving some temporary schooling at the local college?

 

4-They do. Templars can get away with murder pretty easily as long as they're willing to lie or are just forgetful. See the original Cole.

 

5-And it's just as ridiculous. These institutions that make tons of money and are occupied by the Chantry's army. You really don't think the Divine isn't getting her cut? That Templars aren't skimming off the top? 

 

6-Mage equality. It means they can inherit titles, but don't hold them exclusively. Not Tevinter, just fair. And how the hell do you think hundreds of people dying looks to anyone? It's horrible, and it wouldn't have happened if not for the Chantry.

 

Tranquility is horrific, why the **** would it still exist when mages weren't being punished for existing anymore?

[Lunatica]

We've had to choose between the two sides in all three games and the large majority of players choose mages without thinking twice.

And why wouldn't they? One's first instinct is to help the oppressed. But if it is to be presented as a choice, it shouldn't be so black and white.

While there are a few reasons to be pro Circle and respect the templars' real purpose, the games failed to provide one that is just as compelling as the noble cause of mage freedom.

Its all in how they are portrayed. Up until Inquisition, the Mages main representation on screen has been that of the oppressed slave. They are the outcasts, the ostracized - and people tend to sympathize with that. Also take into account that Mages represent what many gamers and readers want to be - someone with remarkable powers that help them go beyond the banality of the mundane world etc etc,Meanwhile Templars have the unfortunate position of being the people who restrain that freedom, which is never going to endear them to these aforementioned people. They are the 'No you can't!' to the Mages 'Yes we can!'

 

As with all representations of Knights and Magicians, it depends what role they are seen to inhabit, In games where the Templars' role is to restrict and enforce, they seem like 'The Man' and with their intimidating full face helms and large, armoured presences they seem very threatening and dangerous. But in Inquisition, it is flagging up their status as Knights and Champions, and people *really* love things like that (the whole King Arthur ideal - its pretty much the foundation of the appeal of the lore in games like Dark Souls, for example).

 

By the same token, if you focus on Mages as shadowy, political schemers, and/or people who dabble in magics that threaten the world around them, they will start to lose the support of the audience (Basically if the game wants you to sympathize with any given spellcaster, it calls them Mages because that sounds friendly and non threatening. If it wants them to be mysterious, it calls them Wizards or add words like Fade and Sky to their title. if it wants them to seem dangerous it calls them Sorcerors or adds Blood or Death to the name etc), If mages cast in their lot with the enemies, people will also not support them (the Mages join Corypheus out of desperation, but nevertheless do so willingly, whereas the Templars are essentially drugged and poisoned before they join). The Mage's desire for freedom is not gone into in much detail in this game, making their rebellion seem far less justifiable than it did in previous games, whereas the Templars desire to protect the people is flagged up much more this time.

 

Plus the amount of Mages who have ulterior motives of the most dangerous sort are piling up. 'A Mage did it' could be the series catchphrase at this point. With the Magisters invading the Golden City and causing the Blights (which unless some kind of solution is found, will eventually destroy the world, as the darkspawn keep breeding), Anders blowing up the Chantry, Solas and his magic Orb 'o' Destruction, Corypheus, the various schemes of Morrigan and Flemeth, Alexius trading the lives of everyone in Theads for that of his son, and a whole legion of well meaning fools like Avernus and Merrill messing about with forces they should;t...

 

Is it any wonder that the people of Theads mistrust magic?

[Asdrubael Vect]

 

5-And it's just as ridiculous. These institutions that make tons of money and are occupied by the Chantry's army. You really don't think the Divine isn't getting her cut? That Templars aren't skimming off the top? 

 

Divine is not and always(sinse Seekers take controll and create templars army) was just a old woman puppets raised in system what Seekers create and she do what Seekers wanted, if she was not Seekers replace her with new one

 

Orlais Chantry was a tool and propoganda of Seekers will as Templars useless zealots what purpuse was just be who they are and kill who they were told as try to pretend themselfs as protectors of human commons and nobles from heretics, nonhumans and mages, they pretend untill Seekers stop their show and make them use red lyrium and fight with those who oppose Coryfeus

 

it was go fo millenia until a miracle with Justinia and Cassandra as Leliana assasin what broke Seekers contoll and we see what happen in Asunder and Inquisition

 

Seekers cant replace Justinia who was a master bard assasin and Cassandra was not know anything about Seekers order as was become a high ranking seeker and Divine bodyguard cos of killing dragon, so Cassanda was obey to Divine as other minor seekers and templars who not follow their own order

 

The whole mages and heretics problems and fears with holy wars was a Seekers job, and they go with Coryfeus when they see a oportunity to make a new world with him, noone controll them and noone can cos of seekers powers what makes blood magic and deamon control not working on them

[straykat]

Mage becomes Abomination in an isolated village. The closest "wandering Seeker" group is three days ride away.

How do you get word to them and have them arrive before the mage has destroyed the village and moved on?

 

So I should adjust a global policy because I can't immediately curtail every violation?

 

It's a good example of what can go wrong... I understand. But I refuse to go into overkill mode about it. Same with like... gun control. Or software piracy. Or whatever.

 

I'd be curious why the mage went Abomination to begin with though. It doesn't randomly happen. Which is the biggest bullshit templars want everyone to believe.

[MisterJB]

So I should adjust a global policy because I can't immediately curtail every violation?

Well, that does seem to be what most pro-mages want of the Circle.

 

"Some Templars abuse mages? Burn it all to the ground."

 

 

I'd be curious why the mage went Abomination to begin with though. It doesn't randomly happen. Which is the biggest bullshit templars want everyone to believe.

Maybe his dad got sick, there is precedence.

[straykat]

DAI ended up making me even more skeptical of abominations.

 

The freaking sky is split open and the whole world flooded with demons... and Cullen and Vivienne go into panic about free mages..

 

And I didn't see one of them become an abomination.

 

And the difference with DA2? I didn't treat them like ****.

[Daerog]

BioWare isn't consistent on multiple things in DA, especially concerning magic and the Chantry.

Does the Chantry believe the Maker answers prayers or not? DAO and Inquisition are different on the matter. It's going from a kind of deism to more of a judeo-christian(-islamic?) view.

Are mages like psykers in Warhammer 40k, being powerful but vulnerable to metaphysical corruption (capable of dooming planets just due to weak willpower), or more like those Harry Potter wizards, just feared by muggles but really are just like other people (with super powers)?

Does BW just want a misunderstood group, or an actual supernatural issue?

The Avvar let spirits rule over them, allow their children to be at their mercy, and then separate them. This is the kind of culture Andraste came from, the ancesters of Fereldan were one with the Avvar iirc. Why did they change? The Avvar can literally speak to their gods, but Andraste turned away from them, why?

What were things like back then?

We know dalish have to sometimes hunt and kill their keepers when they become abominations, but it is unknown how often that is done, and some clans do just disappear.

Reports on abominations are only talked about in southern Thedas and in more modern times, not much outside that is there any mention.

Mages did kill each other a lot in the past and in Tevinter; only the Circle mages consider themselves a kind of united group, which will be lost eventually with the College and things going closer to the Tevinter model.

Maybe having more mages killing mages reduces abomination incidents? (joking...)

BioWare takes pride on setting up moral dilemmas, but they really weakened the mage issue from game to game, even if codex entries and books try to keep the life of mages naturally dangerous.

Also, the whole cage thing is only true if the Circle is more rebellious or Templars were jerks. Fereldan's Circle allowed Enchanters to leave, like for picking flowers, and even mages could leave if they were going to help with something. Finn had a great relationship with Templars and the Templars there were pretty relaxed... then abominations happened... then they were pretty relaxed again in Witch Hunt... Mages were way more carefree there than anyone else anywhere in Thedas. Even having a total villain as their First Enchanter in The Calling novel, who used BLIGHT MAGIC, didn't cause that Circle Tower any issues with the Chantry or Templars.

Seriously, Fereldan Circle was weird. Evil First Enchanter dealing with darkspawn to learn blight magic and then a huge abomination outbreak around 20-25 years later because a group was learning blood magic.

Mages seem to have very little oversight in Fereldan.

The only overbearing oversight was Kirkwall, and everyone was just going crazy over there.

Edit: hahaha, this is practically a blog post, sorry for oversharing thoughts on the matter.

[thesuperdarkone2]

DAI ended up making me even more skeptical of abominations.

The freaking sky is split open and the whole world flooded with demons... and Cullen and Vivienne go into panic about free mages..

And I didn't see one of them become an abomination.

And the difference with DA2? I didn't treat them like ****.

Plus a recent thread made me wonder if Hawke really did fight so many blood mages and abominations considering da2 is a story told by Varric

[Daerog]

Well, at least Inquisition gave us a new abomination.

A dragon abomination.

People dealing with spirits can make big problems for their neighbors.

[Hellion Rex]

DAI ended up making me even more skeptical of abominations.

The freaking sky is split open and the whole world flooded with demons... and Cullen and Vivienne go into panic about free mages..

And I didn't see one of them become an abomination.

And the difference with DA2? I didn't treat them like ****.

In regards to the demons, though, there isn't much a need to possess people since they can freely manifest through the rifts.

[Qun00]

I see it more as an oversight than confirmation that what we knew about abominations was wrong.

With the Veil becoming fragile in the whole world, the risk of possession SHOULD be greater.

[Hellion Rex]

I see it more as an oversight than confirmation that what we knew about abominations was wrong.

With the Veil becoming fragile in the whole world, the risk of possession SHOULD be greater.

Not necessarily though. While I think the smarter, upper level demons would be clever enough to realize that hiding in plain sight via possession would make them less conspicuous, I understand that the majority of lower demons simply manifest through the rifts, deciding to eschew possession.

[straykat]

Plus a recent thread made me wonder if Hawke really did fight so many blood mages and abominations considering da2 is a story told by Varric

 

Interesting... I never thought of that. But yeah, Varric is full of ****.

[straykat]

I just finished DAO, and I was reminded of Otto. That's a badass Templar. If the world was full of Ottos running around, I'd be happy with that.

 

He says it himself... that he'd rather be helping people than sitting in a temple. And he's nearly blind...and he voluntarily goes to the Alienage specifically. Good man.

 

I kind of think siding with Temps + Divine Leliana gets you this. It's hard to say though.

[Hellion Rex]

I just finished DAO, and I was reminded of Otto. That's a badass Templar. If the world was full of Ottos running around, I'd be happy with that.

 

He says it himself... that he'd rather be helping people than sitting in a temple. And he's nearly blind...and he voluntarily goes to the Alienage specifically. Good man.

 

I kind of think siding with Temps + Divine Leliana gets you this. It's hard to say though.

I would argue that Divine Cassandra would offer the same. I vividly remember my first conversation with Cassandra in the game, and she told the PC how she wished the Chantry could truly return to it's root, that of charity and piety, instead of focusing sewing the Divine's gowns and backstabby politics.

[Lulupab]

Unless they move the seat of the divine to someplace other than Orlais, backstabby politics are not going anywhere I'm afraid. Orlesians...

[straykat]

I would argue that Divine Cassandra would offer the same. I vividly remember my first conversation with Cassandra in the game, and she told the PC how she wished the Chantry could truly return to it's root, that of charity and piety, instead of focusing sewing the Divine's gowns and backstabby politics.

 

Her reign still focuses on circles and stationary Templars.

 

All of them do, I guess... since Trespasser. But lets assume there are still some differences. I'm almost sure that Leliana's reign will allow a lot more Wilhelms and Wynnes and even Viviennes. And even lesser mages get more free time. Cassandra merely tiptoes in that direction, as a Divine. I'd rather just see her doing the Seeker job herself and eventually building more leaders like herself.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I just finished DAO, and I was reminded of Otto. That's a badass Templar. If the world was full of Ottos running around, I'd be happy with that.

He says it himself... that he'd rather be helping people than sitting in a temple. And he's nearly blind...and he voluntarily goes to the Alienage specifically. Good man.

I kind of think siding with Temps + Divine Leliana gets you this. It's hard to say though.

Considering the majority of good Templars left prior to the Mage Templar war and the good Templars that didn't leave were likely at the conclave and during the red lyrium consumption, I'd say the Templars left are the fanatics.

[Hellion Rex]

Considering the majority of good Templars left prior to the Mage Templar war and the good Templars that didn't leave were likely at the conclave and during the red lyrium consumption, I'd say the Templars left are the fanatics.

And where are you getting that from?

[straykat]

Considering the majority of good Templars left prior to the Mage Templar war and the good Templars that didn't leave were likely at the conclave and during the red lyrium consumption, I'd say the Templars left are the fanatics.

 

I wouldn't say there are a lot either, but Barris and his friends are proof enough that they're not all fanatics. Just scared/lost/confused. Even the ones who joined Cullen in the Inquisition are still a bit cautious. But I think I should have faith here too, in the same way I can have faith in mages. Less faith, but still.

 

What's important is having an actual Divine edict that creates a job that attracts people like Otto. Instead of the jailer duties...which attracts sociopaths.

[Hellion Rex]

Her reign still focuses on circles and stationary Templars.

 

All of them do, I guess... since Trespasser. But lets assume there are still some differences. I'm almost sure that Leliana's reign will allow a lot more Wilhelms and Wynnes and even Viviennes. And even lesser mages get more free time. Cassandra merely tiptoes in that direction, as a Divine. I'd rather just see her doing the Seeker job herself and eventually building more leaders like herself.

I disagree about Cassandra tiptoeing. Slower yes, as opposed to Leliana's arguably bulldozing method of reforms. Anywho, she does still rebuilds and reforms the Seekers, even if you get her to be Divine, as you still get the "Cassandra also spent time in the Hunterhorn Mountains north of Orlais, where she worked to rebuild the Seekers. For a time, the new Seekers remained reclusive, showing no interest in wordly affairs and working to a purpose few outside their order could guess." slide

[straykat]

I disagree about Cassandra tiptoeing. Slower yes, as opposed to Leliana's arguably bulldozing method of reforms. Anywho, she does still rebuilds and reforms the Seekers, even if you get her to be Divine, as you still get the "Cassandra also spent time in the Hunterhorn Mountains north of Orlais, where she worked to rebuild the Seekers. For a time, the new Seekers remained reclusive, showing no interest in wordly affairs and working to a purpose few outside their order could guess." slide

 

Bulldozing? I soften her. She's a bard to me. Not some assassin or bully.

[MisterJB]

Considering the majority of good Templars left prior to the Mage Templar war and the good Templars that didn't leave were likely at the conclave and during the red lyrium consumption, I'd say the Templars left are the fanatics.

Oh so you have a psychological and demographic study that rates the morality of every single Templar and their fate with which you can prove your wild claims?

 

Please, post it here.

 

[MisterJB]

Bulldozing? I soften her. She's a bard to me. Not some assassin or bully.

Bulldozing does not require violence. It merely requires a leader changing the ideals and methods of a system in a singular decision.

It's the different between Cassandra introducing reasonable reforms that pave the way for further improvements down the line while adhering to the existing ideals of the Chantry and what is expected of the Divine and Leliana's "Mages are free, everyone can be everything in the Chantry and even the Divine can have lovers if she wants to."