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[Hellion Rex]

Bulldozing? I soften her. She's a bard to me. Not some assassin or bully.

I meant that she's simply reforming everything practically at once, which I don't believe is the correct approach to deal with this delicate situation.

[straykat]

Bulldozing does not require violence. It merely requires a leader changing the ideals and methods of a system in a singular decision.

It's the different between Cassandra introducing reasonable reforms that pave the way for further improvements down the line while adhering to the existing ideals of the Chantry and what is expected of the Divine and Leliana's "Mages are free, everyone can be everything in the Chantry and even the Divine can have lovers if she wants to."

 

What ideals is she really changing? She's actually implementing ideals rather than changing any. There's nothing there to begin with on these areas except bullshit. Their stance on races is morally bankrupt. And the stance on mages has nothing to do with Andraste. Andraste never said anything about this stuff. It's all there because the Chantry aligned itself with the Inquisition -- which wasn't an Andrastian movement at first. They were just mage hunters that sprouted up after the first blight. People who merely angry about Tevinter. That's just anger. Not ideals. And for a thousand years, people have tried to pretend it's more than that. But it really isn't. It's petty.

[Lulupab]

Still, Leliana knows exactly how to do it. If anyone can bring those changes, its her. She does change a lot of things at once, but she changes what Justinia was going to change, only faster. We all know how much of idol Justinia is.

 

However Leliana doesn't attempt to change fundamentals of a nations, she is quite familiar how to do things in Orlais and succeed in politics. It may be my opinion, but realistically Cassandra and even Gaspard are too simple to have a political position in a country like Orlais. 

 

Cassandra is one of those divines that doesn't accomplish anything great and simply keeps everyone happy until she dies, then all the problems begin again.

 

I think you guys are underestimating politics here.

[Hellion Rex]

Still, Leliana knows exactly how to do it. If anyone can bring those changes, its her. She does change a lot of things at once, but she changes what Justinia was going to change, only faster. We all know how much of idol Justinia is.

 

However Leliana doesn't attempt to change fundamentals of a nations, she is quite familiar how to do things in Orlais and succeed in politics. It may be my opinion, but realistically Cassandra and even Gaspard are too simple to have a political position in a country like Orlais. 

 

Cassandra is one of those divines that doesn't accomplish anything great and simply keeps everyone happy until she dies, then all the problems begin again.

 

I think you guys are underestimating politics here.

And I think you are severely underestimating Cassandra. And considering she ain't dead yet, I find it odd you are making such assertion when she's only been Divine for 3 years or so. And you had best believe that she is changing the fundamental of nations, by allowing both men and elves into the priesthood. Whether you agree with it or not (I actually do) is irrelevant. The act of allowing those people (the elves) mostly into a position of power unknown to them in Southern Thedas most definitely will change or at the very least, affect the cultural and religious perceptions of everybody in Southern Thedas, affecting EVERY. SINGLE. NATION. 

 

And yes, it is only your opinion that Cass and Gaspard are too simple to handle Orlais, although why even drag Gaspard into this debate?

 

As a whole, Leliana may be doing good things, but she's doing way too much way too fast. She can't just change everything in one night and not have lots of problems down the road. It's an extremely naive approach. You say she knows Orlais? I'd argue otherwise, cause sudden, rapid change is not the way to deal with a conservative place like Orlais. 

[straykat]

For a religious movement that started with both Andraste AND Shartan, this should have already happened. She isn't rushing anything.

 

What's even worse is that after the Dales, they still kept the Andrastian elves down and relegated to Alienages. It's one thing to keep up some enmity against Dalish beliefs, but these were Chantry believers. And the Chantry still screwed them over.

 

There should be no more waiting on this. It's like saying the Civil Rights protesters were "uppity" and not recognizing their place... that they should just accept Jim Crow laws, a hundred years after Lincoln. That it'll slowly "improve" in time.

[MisterJB]

What ideals is she really changing? She's actually implementing ideals rather than changing any. There's nothing there to begin with on these areas except bullshit. Their stance on races is morally bankrupt. And the stance on mages has nothing to do with Andraste. Andraste never said anything about this stuff. It's all there because the Chantry aligned itself with the Inquisition -- which wasn't an Andrastian movement at first. They were just mage hunters that sprouted up after the first blight. People who merely angry about Tevinter. That's just anger. Not ideals. And for a thousand years, people have tried to pretend it's more than that. But it really isn't. It's petty.

Yeah, just because you dislike the culture, norms and ideals that millions of people in Andrastian society have lived their lives in accordance with and strived towards for 900 years, that doesn't make them any less real. Andrastian society was created on the basis that people should be free of Tevinter in particular and magic in general which, mind you, is hardly a singular case since the Dalish or this very mage rebellion were formed by their member's desire to stand against something.

It doesn't require Andraste passing down a written codex in order for something like "The Divine must be chaste" to become part of Andrastian culture and pardon me, but I do believe the way people have lived for nearly a thousand years deserve more respect that simply being changed on a whim by a crazy woman whose proclamations will change if she is getting it on the regular with the Warden.

 

[straykat]

Yeah, just because you dislike the culture, norms and ideals that millions of people in Andrastian society have lived their lives in accordance with and strived towards for 900 years, that doesn't make them any less real. Andrastian society was created on the basis that people should be free of Tevinter in particular and magic in general which, mind you, is hardly a singular case since the Dalish or this very mage rebellion were formed by their member's desire to stand against something.

It doesn't require Andraste passing down a written codex in order for something like "The Divine must be chaste" to become part of Andrastian culture and pardon me, but I do believe the way people have lived for nearly a thousand years deserve more respect that simply being changed on a whim by a crazy woman whose proclamations will change if she is getting it on the regular with the Warden.

 

Andrastian society? If anything, I'm trying to get to something closer to Andraste. Not what Joe Bumfuck Orlesian thinks.

 

All she was talking about was mage rulers... and magic being a gift that shouldn't be abused.  

 

How it got from that to control and fear and imprisonment is because of the Inquisition. It has nothing to do with Andraste.

[MisterJB]

Andrastian society? If anything, I'm trying to get to something closer to Andraste. Not what Joe Bumfuck Orlesian thinks.

 

All she was talking about was mage rulers... and magic being a gift that shouldn't be abused.  

 

How it got from that to control and fear and imprisonment is because of the Inquisition. It has nothing to do with Andraste.

 

Not only does what you are saying have nothing to do with Andraste (after all, she never actually set down written laws that opposed imprisioning mages, if you want to use that term,) you are diminishing how the experiences of the people that came after her helped shape society and basically throwing them in the garbage along with 900 years of history.
 

[straykat]

Not only does what you are saying have nothing to do with Andraste (after all, she never actually set down written laws that opposed imprisioning mages, if you want to use that term,) you are diminishing how the experiences of the people that came after her helped shape society and basically throwing them in the garbage along with 900 years of history.
 

 

Give me a break. It's like saying Luther was diminishing the culture of Europe..... because he wanted the church to give individuals their dignity again. Just because the older tradition existed for a millennium before him.

 

Other than that, you're just way too dramatic. Helping elves is not kicking other people in the "garbage". Is that how deluded you are... that culture is at risk of falling apart, unless one group is treated like rats.

[Lulupab]

And I think you are severely underestimating Cassandra. And considering she ain't dead yet, I find it odd you are making such assertion when she's only been Divine for 3 years or so. And you had best believe that she is changing the fundamental of nations, by allowing both men and elves into the priesthood. Whether you agree with it or not (I actually do) is irrelevant. The act of allowing those people (the elves) mostly into a position of power unknown to them in Southern Thedas most definitely will change or at the very least, affect the cultural and religious perceptions of everybody in Southern Thedas, affecting EVERY. SINGLE. NATION. 

 

And yes, it is only your opinion that Cass and Gaspard are too simple to handle Orlais, although why even drag Gaspard into this debate?

 

As a whole, Leliana may be doing good things, but she's doing way too much way too fast. She can't just change everything in one night and not have lots of problems down the road. It's an extremely naive approach. You say she knows Orlais? I'd argue otherwise, cause sudden, rapid change is not the way to deal with a conservative place like Orlais. 

 

I said Fundamentals of nations, not Chantry. There might be some relevance between these, but ultimately they are different. So don't get me wrong, Leliana is shaking the Chantry, but she is doing it how it should be done, with politics. Cassandra objects how things are run in Orlais, take the ball for example. If she doesn't get the favor of nations and Orlais, she can't accomplish anything. Therefore she will simply revert back the system to a slightly better version of the old one and be stuck with it until she is no longer divine. And this is exactly what happens with all endings of Cassandra except the one in which you ally with mages, even then its only a slight change.

 

I brought Gaspard into the discussion because of the similarity. Gaspard wants to remove the game from Orlais, we both know he can't. He may enforce it for a while, but he is going to die some day or simply lose power. Then all of it will come back immediately. Gaspard may even be a better candidate for the immediate situation of dealing with Elder One, but not in the long run.

 

As I said, what Leliana is doing is almost impossible. But she is perfect position to do it. For reference you can look at Queen Elizabeth of England who was in a very similar position with Leliana. Had a large spy network and brought rapid changes quickly. Influence of religion faded, art and literature flourished and England enjoyed a long time of peace and prosperity. You do realize how hard it was to do all these things in her time with all the fanatics and zealots around? I do see the merit behind people questioning Leliana's objectives and how fast she achieves them, but again Bioware has put her in the perfect position to do this. if you are going to blame anyone, blame them. 

 

I'm not sure if you have seen hardened Leliana in Trespasser DLC as divine, I mean you yourself, not some youtube video. As you play the game you can talk to minor npcs, they are absolutely terrified of her and vie for her favor.

 

Similarly the same people worship her in softened version.

 

Not to mention Cassandra fully supports Leliana in all of it, even in the hardened approach. You may think its naive, but there is zero evidence of her method not working in the game. Only opinions of people outside of the game.

[straykat]

I don't even mind Cassandra as Divine. I love the character. It's just when I'm told nothing else works. Like I'm reduced to one choice. Please. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I said Fundamentals of nations, not Chantry. There might be some relevance between these, but ultimately they are different. So don't get me wrong, Leliana is shaking the Chantry, but she is doing it how it should be done, with politics. Cassandra objects how things are run in Orlais, take the ball for example. If she doesn't get the favor of nations and Orlais, she can't accomplish anything. Therefore she will simply revert back the system to a slightly better version of the old one and be stuck with it until she is no longer divine. And this is exactly what happens with all endings of Cassandra except the one in which you ally with mages, even then its only a slight change.

I brought Gaspard into the discussion because of the similarity. Gaspard wants to remove the game from Orlais, we both know he can't. He may enforce it for a while, but he is going to die some day or simply lose power. Then all of it will come back immediately. Gaspard may even be a better candidate for the immediate situation of dealing with Elder One, but not in the long run.

As I said, what Leliana is doing is almost impossible. But she is perfect position to do it. For reference you can look at Queen Elizabeth of England who was in a very similar position with Leliana. Had a large spy network and brought rapid changes quickly. Influence of religion faded, art and literature flourished and England enjoyed a long time of peace and prosperity. You do realize how hard it was to do all these things in her time with all the fanatics and zealots around? I do see the merit behind people questioning Leliana's objectives and how fast she achieves them, but again Bioware has put her in the perfect position to do this. if you are going to blame anyone, blame them.

I'm not sure if you have seen hardened Leliana in Trespasser DLC as divine, I mean you yourself, not some youtube video. As you play the game you can talk to minor npcs, they are absolutely terrified of her and vie for her favor.

Similarly the same people worship her in softened version.

Not to mention Cassandra fully supports Leliana in all of it, even in the hardened approach. You may think its naive, but there is zero evidence of her method not working in the game. Only opinions of people outside of the game.

Don't forget how cass can only accomplish things diplomatically with outside help or through military force. Also, her diplomatic ending still has her go back on some of her reforms to ensure peace. That doesn't bode well for her reforms

[Daerog]

Eh, I prefer Viv as Divine. A Loyalist mage is a good example to the people of a faithful mage who can do the most good with fewest resources and knows how to bring good out of bad situations (even if she is viewed as unsympathetic).

Not like this matters, they all end up doing the same reforms, just by different means.

At least with Viv, the Chantry will have a better shot at easing relations and possibly reuniting with the Imperial Chantry so the Chant can be united and spread and bring the world to paradise in the Maker. (And the south will gain more influence in Tevinter, supporting magisters that oppose slavery and blood magic.)

Imperial Chantry has cooler holidays, too.

[MisterJB]

Give me a break. It's like saying Luther was diminishing the culture of Europe..... because he wanted the church to give individuals their dignity again. Just because the older tradition existed for a millennium before him.

Yeah, that only led to the Thirty Year's War. And Martin Luther wasn't even the Pope.

What? Shall we have Nevarra fight Orlais for the sake of Leliana?

 

 

Other than that, you're just way too dramatic. Helping elves is not kicking other people in the "garbage". Is that how deluded you are... that culture is at risk of falling apart, unless one group is treated like rats.

You're twisting my words. I never said was against helping elves or even reasonable reforms.

I am against unilateral decisions made by an authoritarian leader that are based on her sex life. Because we aren't just talking about, say, equal treatment for female humans and elves in the priesthood, we're talking about a complete ovewrite of not just Andrastian traditions but policy making for the sake of Leliana's feelings. She literally only allows the priesthood to marry if she is in a romance with the Warden.

Does this sound like sound decision-making to you? She is not reaching an understanding of Andraste's teachings, she is not pursuing a policy that was much needed for the sake of society and its people, she wants to get laid.

 

Might as well rewrite the Chant while we're at it.

[Daerog]

If she is going to rewrite the Chant... if she adds the Canticle of Silence, I'll support it.

[MisterJB]

If she is going to rewrite the Chant... if she adds the Canticle of Silence, I'll support it.

The one that was written by an Archon and reads that the Archon of the time was totally not in on Corypheus&Co's plan and he did, in fact, single handedly defeat them all but could not destroy the Blight no matter how hard he tried?

 

Sorry, I am going with propaganda.

[Akiza]

DAI ended up making me even more skeptical of abominations.

 

The freaking sky is split open and the whole world flooded with demons... and Cullen and Vivienne go into panic about free mages..

 

And I didn't see one of them become an abomination.

 

And the difference with DA2? I didn't treat them like ****.

Who knows maybe this mean that demons make abominations because they want to enter in the mortal realm rather than to possess the mage which mean that with the Breach they had no reason to possess mages because they had already a door at disposal.

[Daerog]

Deleted, need to better check lore next time*

[Lord of War]

 

Might as well rewrite the Chant while we're at it.

 

Well, it's not like they haven't already done this whenever it was convenient for them before. The Chantry and Andrastianism aren't really the same thing anyway: Emperor Drakon founded the Chantry as a tool and justification for Orlesian imperialism, and all other forms of Andrastian worship were brutally suppressed (with the help of the old Inquisition, who would become the Templars). 

[Lulupab]

Andraste had an earthly husband though, no?

 

Chantry might have been completely wrong with the whole idea with female priests, not like it hasn't been wrong before. Many times in fact.

[Daerog]

Well, it's not like they haven't already done this whenever it was convenient for them before. The Chantry and Andrastianism aren't really the same thing anyway: Emperor Drakon founded the Chantry as a tool and justification for Orlesian imperialism, and all other forms of Andrastian worship were brutally suppressed (with the help of the old Inquisition, who would become the Templars).

Unless Andraste's visitation to Drakon was true and he was sincere in his service to Andraste's command.

The canticle of shartan was controversial even before the Dales, as Chantry scholars believed it was just old elf tales being twisted to fit the Chant, which is credible considering the confusion between solas and shartan.

[Daerog]

Andraste had an earthly husband though, no?

Chantry might have been completely wrong with the whole idea with female priests, not like it hasn't been wrong before. Many times in fact.

Andraste wasn't a Divine, and her earthly husband betrayed her. Not a good example of pious marriage.

[Lulupab]

Andraste wasn't a virgin though and their relationship was going pretty well until later when she had a lot of power. The betrayal is completely irrelevant when we are talking about sexuality and love. The marriage was unsuccessful, sure, but it was a marriage.

 

Also you do accept that the whole divine thing is made up by people after Andraste, hell its gender is different on parts of the world. 

 

I'm not saying Leliana got it right, but the ones before her didn't either. They simply had it going for longer period of time.

[MisterJB]

Well, it's not like they haven't already done this whenever it was convenient for them before. The Chantry and Andrastianism aren't really the same thing anyway: Emperor Drakon founded the Chantry as a tool and justification for Orlesian imperialism, and all other forms of Andrastian worship were brutally suppressed (with the help of the old Inquisition, who would become the Templars). 

Untrue, for instance the Canticle of Transfigurations can be traced back to an Andrastian group in Ferelden in -130 Ancient, a century before Drakon's birth, and it is the closest Chantry scholars can find to the versions that were likely spread amongst the Alamarri followed Andraste. The World of Thedas Volume 2, page 62

 

Another example would be the Canticle of Andraste that is sourced to an Andrastian cult in -165 Ancient and was the oldest form of the Canticle that could be found. World of Thedas Volume 2, page 61.

 

Thus, this proves that while there were certainly many different versions of Andraste's history, the choosing of Chantry Canon was not done with the toss of a coin but rather extensive archeologic work.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

I've got no problem with Mages having a safe place to live, learn, and protect so long as it's actually safe. The Circles had become unsafe for pretty much everyone, providing only the illusion of security. Like the Marvel Comic Civil War I approve of having training and regulation being available so long as it is the individual's choice (baring initial training so they don't lose control of their powers early on).

 

Treat Mages like monsters and they become monsters. Treat them like people, and they remain people. Some will be saints, others will be jackasses. It's life.