1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

I've got no problem with Mages having a safe place to live, learn, and protect so long as it's actually safe. The Circles had become unsafe for pretty much everyone, providing only the illusion of security. Like the Marvel Comic Civil War I approve of having training and regulation being available so long as it is the individual's choice (baring initial training so they don't lose control of their powers early on).

Treat Mages like monsters and they become monsters. Treat them like people, and they remain people. Some will be saints, others will be jackasses. It's life.

Well the problem with giving people an option in this setting is that they then have a possibility of becoming an abomination, turning to blood magic, or simply losing control of their magic and harming innocents.

At the very least, I would not be opposed to having extremely loyal/well trained/trusted mages (such as Wynne) more freedom to roam outside Circles, but I don't think it's necessarily the best plan to let people simply live wherever they want, at this stage of the game.

[Lulupab]

I wish the game explained how the College works instead of having Morrigan simply say it worked.

 

(I mean the new college)

[Vit246]

Well the problem with giving people an option in this setting is that they then have a possibility of becoming an abomination, turning to blood magic, or simply losing control of their magic and harming innocents.

 

How would these possibilities happen in that context?

A properly trained mage will guard himself against demons and possession and loss of control.

A well-treated mage will have little incentive to seek out demons or turn to blood magic or lash out at innocents.

 

You need to think about the contexts in which the things you are worried about happen.

[Daerog]

Andraste wasn't a virgin though and their relationship was going pretty well until later when she had a lot of power. The betrayal is completely irrelevant when we are talking about sexuality and love. The marriage was unsuccessful, sure, but it was a marriage.
 
Also you do accept that the whole divine thing is made up by people after Andraste, hell its gender is different on parts of the world. 
 
I'm not saying Leliana got it right, but the ones before her didn't either. They simply had it going for longer period of time.

We are not given enough/all the theology on these topics to make informed judgements on Chantry doctrine.

Whether it is doctrine or just tradition to have unmarried clergy, I don't know. Maybe the whole unmarried thing can be lifted without breaking any dogma. However, I prefer the idea of clergy fully dedicated to their chantry and not have marriage or family possibly getting in the way, but that is just my preference.

As for virginity, Divines certainly don't need to be virgins. I'm not sure if the Chantry puts any sacredness on virginity.

The betrayal is very significant to Chantry teachings, as it is used as a reason for no male clergy.

Do we know those in the past didn't get it right? Drakon could be completely right in how he supported the Chantry, he could have been given a divine mandate from Andraste that he followed to the letter.

Maybe Hessarian's Chantry was right, as he had the Visitations during his reign. Maybe the Imperial Chantry is closest to Truth with magic being a divine gift and only mages should be in the clergy.

The Divine was a station created after Andraste's death, true, but maybe Andraste wished it so when speaking to Drakon, or maybe it was a tradition started by one of Andraste's disciples.

I'm all for the fun of debating lore, but in all honesty, we don't have enough info to outright say the Chantry is totally wrong. Mistaken on some historical details, ya, but that doesn't make the institution or faith wrong.

However, maybe it is all wrong!

[MisterJB]

How would these possibilities happen in that context?

Look, I could literally write a hundred scenarios where those possibilities could happen.

Suffice it to say that well treated mages are just as capable of arrogance, greed, sadism, pettiness, vindictiveness, etc as anyone else.

In fact, given their ability to conjure things out of thing air, I would say they have a better chance of falling to temptations than people who can't turn a "no" into a "yes" with a slight cut on the wrist.

 

And, likewise, a great many trained mages become Abominations.
 

[Daerog]

How would these possibilities happen in that context?
A properly trained mage will guard himself against demons and possession and loss of control.
A well-treated mage will have little incentive to seek out demons or turn to blood magic or lash out at innocents.
 
You need to think about the contexts in which the things you are worried about happen.

"Properly" trained mages can still be fooled into possession, like how the pride demon tried in the mage origin.

Well treated mages can still find more power too tempting to resist and resort to meddling with demons. Even well-meaning mages can fall, just look at what happened to Anders. Even if there was no mage stigma, there are always causes people can go overboard with, and a mage can go waaayyy overboard, all the way to the Void.

Mages are freely housed and fed, but must live and train in the Circle, like the wizards in Harry Potter, but unlike HP, it is for life. They could leave and return and left alone by the magic police.

Fereldan's Circle wasn't bad, it just had evil or stupid enchanters that really screwed up. If the Templars weren't so lax in their duties, the blight and blood magic stuff probably wouldn't have happened.


Now I'm starting to think BW did okay with the magic issue. We do have Wynne, Finn, and Viv giving positive views on the Circle, but they seem to be ignored.

Well, now there is the Circle and College, how that works, I don't know. I assume it'll be up to local government to force mage kids into the Circle or give the option of the College. Maybe they will force kids to the College, too, as Sera said there was a kid blowing stuff up who really needed to be trained.

[Daerog]

And, likewise, a great many trained mages become Abominations.

Uldred. There was no need for him to be an abomination for his plans, and he was a well trained Senior Enchanter. All he wanted was freedom to practice his blood magic. Still gets possessed by pride demon, and no one wants their soul to be a plaything for a demon.

[Hellion Rex]

Look, I could literally write a hundred scenarios where those possibilities could happen.
Suffice it to say that well treated mages are just as capable of arrogance, greed, sadism, pettiness, vindictiveness, etc as anyone else.
In fact, given their ability to conjure things out of thing air, I would say they have a better chance of falling to temptations than people who can't turn a "no" into a "yes" with a slight cut on the wrist.

And, likewise, a great many trained mages become Abominations.

Quite. With the powers to shape reality come a lot more temptations for those with magic.

[Lord of War]

Now I'm starting to think BW did okay with the magic issue. We do have Wynne, Finn, and Viv giving positive views on the Circle, but they seem to be ignored.

 

I have to point out that Vivienne is effectively rescued from the Circle and Templar scrutiny by Bastien's patronage, and Finn never goes back after Witch Hunt.

[Daerog]

I have to point out that Vivienne is effectively rescued from the Circle and Templar scrutiny by Bastien's patronage, and Finn never goes back after Witch Hunt.

Wasn't Viv made the court enchanter before Bastien? Mages could leave the Circles, they just had to be in good standing and with permission.

Also, Viv recreates the Circle if it disbands, so she liked it, and she lived from bottom to top there, with no family support or noble background.

I forgot that Finn didn't return... something about leather was mentioned, too iirc. Still, his Circle experience was positive. Thanks for the reminder, though!

[Lulupab]

We are not given enough/all the theology on these topics to make informed judgements on Chantry doctrine.

Whether it is doctrine or just tradition to have unmarried clergy, I don't know. Maybe the whole unmarried thing can be lifted without breaking any dogma. However, I prefer the idea of clergy fully dedicated to their chantry and not have marriage or family possibly getting in the way, but that is just my preference.

As for virginity, Divines certainly don't need to be virgins. I'm not sure if the Chantry puts any sacredness on virginity.

The betrayal is very significant to Chantry teachings, as it is used as a reason for no male clergy.

Do we know those in the past didn't get it right? Drakon could be completely right in how he supported the Chantry, he could have been given a divine mandate from Andraste that he followed to the letter.

Maybe Hessarian's Chantry was right, as he had the Visitations during his reign. Maybe the Imperial Chantry is closest to Truth with magic being a divine gift and only mages should be in the clergy.

The Divine was a station created after Andraste's death, true, but maybe Andraste wished it so when speaking to Drakon, or maybe it was a tradition started by one of Andraste's disciples.

I'm all for the fun of debating lore, but in all honesty, we don't have enough info to outright say the Chantry is totally wrong. Mistaken on some historical details, ya, but that doesn't make the institution or faith wrong.

However, maybe it is all wrong!

 

Yep, the lore is kinda lacking, specially the lore before DAO.

 

One of the things that bugs me is Tevinter captured all of Thedas and enslaved people. The issue I have with this is there had to be mages who were not from Tevinter, a lot of them in fact. They obviously had no role in any of that, but were punished for it. Not only that, almost a thousand years later the same thing is still happening.

 

Another issue I have is Tevinter is pretty much rampant with magic with almost no Templar control, yet there have been more abomination incidents in the south than Tevinter. Now this can mean a few things, the most obvious is mages can keep other mages in check much better than any 3rd party entity, be it Templars or else. A more ideal conclusion is mages are less likely to become an abomination when they are not pressured, but this is a bit idealistic so take this with a grain of salt.

[Lord of War]

Wasn't Viv made the court enchanter before Bastien? Mages could leave the Circles, they just had to be in good standing and with permission.

Also, Viv recreates the Circle if it disbands, so she liked it, and she lived from bottom to top there, with no family support or noble background.

I forgot that Finn didn't return... something about leather was mentioned, too iirc. Still, his Circle experience was positive. Thanks for the reminder, though!

 

Uh, no, Vivienne met Bastien when she was sent with some other mages to serve as entertainment at a party. After Bastien, though, her rise was quite rapid, and against all Circle orthodoxy. With a lover like Bastien, the Templars couldn't touch her if they wanted to, she gained political power without a new Tevinter rising, and was able to make it stick. I respect her ability, even if she is a hypocrite and a traitor to her own kind.

 

As for Finn, well, not positive enough to ever return, even when his parents hired mercenaries to bring him back by force?

[Daerog]

Yep, the lore is kinda lacking, specially the lore before DAO.
 
One of the things that bugs me is Tevinter captured all of Thedas and enslaved people. The issue I have with this is there had to be mages who were not from Tevinter, a lot of them in fact. They obviously had no role in any of that, but were punished for it. Not only that, almost a thousand years later the same thing is still happening.
 
Another issue I have is Tevinter is pretty much rampant with magic with almost no Templar control, yet there have been more abomination incidents in the south than Tevinter. Now this can mean a few things, the most obvious is mages can keep other mages in check much better than any 3rd party entity, be it Templars or else. A more ideal conclusion is mages are less likely to become an abomination when they are not pressured, but this is a bit idealistic so take this with a grain of salt.

Good points.

However, I expect more pressure and paranoia for mages in Tevinter than the Circle. Vint mages are a threat to other mages, mages get assassinated, mages are pressured by family to achieve and raise their house, and mages have more responsibilities for everyday life. Circle mages can live more care-free lives and not worry about rivals.

Abominations are rarely mentioned, really. They are mostly in game mobs, it seems. We know they exist, but only few accounts given. Abominations are a big part of Avvar culture. They can even make a dragon abomination. Seers are similar.

I bet there are abominations in Tevinter and they just end up getting killed by their family or other mage warriors, like the dalish have to deal with their abominations. Tevinter probably sees them more like natural disasters caused by weak fools.

[Daerog]

Uh, no, Vivienne met Bastien when she was sent with some other mages to serve as entertainment at a party. After Bastien, though, her rise was quite rapid, and against all Circle orthodoxy. With a lover like Bastien, the Templars couldn't touch her if they wanted to, she gained political power without a new Tevinter rising, and was able to make it stick. I respect her ability, even if she is a hypocrite and a traitor to her own kind.
 
As for Finn, well, not positive enough to ever return, even when his parents hired mercenaries to bring him back by force?

Thanks for answering my question on Viv, it's been a while since I played. I think I fanboy enough about Viv, so won't bother with details and just go "nuh-uh, Viv was no traitor, Viv is awesome, Fiona is the stupid one, Viv for Divine!"

I am just recalling in-game Finn too much, I need to read up on him again it seems.

[Lulupab]

Good points.

However, I expect more pressure and paranoia for mages in Tevinter than the Circle. Vint mages are a threat to other mages, mages get assassinated, mages are pressured by family to achieve and raise their house, and mages have more responsibilities for everyday life. Circle mages can live more care-free lives and not worry about rivals.

Abominations are rarely mentioned, really. They are mostly in game mobs, it seems. We know they exist, but only few accounts given. Abominations are a big part of Avvar culture. They can even make a dragon abomination. Seers are similar.

I bet there are abominations in Tevinter and they just end up getting killed by their family or other mage warriors, like the dalish have to deal with their abominations. Tevinter probably sees them more like natural disasters caused by weak fools.

 

I mean there have to magic disasters in Tevinter, but its usually blood magic not abominations. I mean based on what we know anyway.

[Daerog]

I mean there have to magic disasters in Tevinter, but its usually blood magic not abominations. I mean based on what we know anyway.

Maybe Tevinter has a zoo of animal abominations, since they are cool with using spirit fragments to enchant stuff, like books and brooms.

Nevarra's death rituals deal with spirits possessing corpses, which all started from a Tevinter advisor.

Maybe Tevinter has more knowledge on possession, like a mix of Avvar shamanism and necromancy... They did get a demon to possess a tower to imprison it...


I want to go visit a Tevinter zoo, it'd be magical. Probably have socks act like rabbits and have talking statues... wait... they do have talking statues... that were once people... I don't want to go to a magical zoo anymore.

[straykat]

Another issue I have is Tevinter is pretty much rampant with magic with almost no Templar control, yet there have been more abomination incidents in the south than Tevinter. Now this can mean a few things, the most obvious is mages can keep other mages in check much better than any 3rd party entity, be it Templars or else. A more ideal conclusion is mages are less likely to become an abomination when they are not pressured, but this is a bit idealistic so take this with a grain of salt.

 

It's seem plausible enough to me. If you're constantly hovering over people..or worse, just making them feel like crap, then they're going to explode eventually. Even in real life, where there isn't magic. Whether they're bully victims or getting poked around in the workplace. Whatever. Leave people alone and they won't flip out on you.

 

And in Kirkwall, it's much much worse. It's like an onslaught of fear, distress, and torment. And if there was an actual thing like Tranquility, people would go crazy just thinking about it.

[Hellion Rex]

It's seem plausible enough to me. If you're constantly hovering over people..or worse, just making them feel like crap, then they're going to explode eventually. Even in real life, where there isn't magic. Whether they're bully victims or getting poked around in the workplace. Whatever. Leave people alone and they won't flip out on you.

And in Kirkwall, it's much much worse. It's like an onslaught of fear, distress, and torment. And if there was an actual thing like Tranquility, people would go crazy just thinking about it.

Well, then you have things Connor who existed outside the Circle and so became an abomination because he wanted to save his father. Granted, there are a lot more circumstantial factors surrounding Connor but there are certain stressors and events that can produce abominations that have nothing to do with Circles at all, things that I'd argue that humans have to deal with everyday. Mages simply have the capacity to do more than the average person in response to these events.

[Lord of War]

Well, then you have things Connor who existed outside the Circle and so became an abomination because he wanted to save his father. Granted, there are a lot more circumstantial factors surrounding Connor but there are certain stressors and events that can produce abominations that have nothing to do with Circles at all, things that I'd argue that humans have to deal with everyday. Mages simply have the capacity to do more than the average person in response to these events.

 

I would blame the Circle system for what happened at Redcliffe. Connor never would have been hidden if Isolde thought that she'd actually see her son again, or thought he'd have been treated humanely.

[Lulupab]

Yeah, if being a mage was not frowned upon and there was open education centers, Isolde would send Connor willingly to one of them to develop his magical abilities and learn to control them.

 

I suppose the College of magi ending kinda does this. The thing is a trained mage getting possessed accidentally is very rare. Note that I'm not counting a mage who summons a demon getting possessed an "accident". By accident I mean in their dream or similar situation. 

[Hellion Rex]

I would blame the Circle system for what happened at Redcliffe. Connor never would have been hidden if Isolde thought that she'd actually see her son again, or thought he'd have been treated humanely.

If you had read what I said, then you saw that that I mentioned that Connor of course had other factors involved. But wanting to save your father from sickness or wanting to save any loved one in general is something that doesn't have anything to do with a Circle. With magic however, there is the risk of having your dreams and desires fulfilled through dangerous routes, a la possession or blood magic.

[Steelcan]

I would blame the Circle system for what happened at Redcliffe. Connor never would have been hidden if Isolde thought that she'd actually see her son again, or thought he'd have been treated humanely.

She was being selfish pure and simple, she didn't think about the possible ramifications her decisions would have and her son and husband paid the price.  If he is sent to the Circle we can see in the epilogue that indeed she had no reason to be frightened of his future, and we know that it is very possible for families to visit mages and vice versa (or at least so given power and influence which Eamon has)

[Daerog]

No happy ending for Connor. Forever will he be haunted by his choices, haunted by a demon, or dead.

Poor guy, and all because of a maleficarum. Jowan's foolishness destroyed a lot of lives.

[straykat]

No happy ending for Connor. Forever will he be haunted by his choices, haunted by a demon, or dead.

Poor guy, and all because of a maleficarum. Jowan's foolishness destroyed a lot of lives.

 

It's a cycle though too. I don't like Jowan, but his back was against the wall... probably even earlier than what we saw. He probably wouldn't have even been that way without the pressures or upbringing he had. And even when Irving wasn't sure about the blood magic bit, he was still willing to make Jowan go Tranquil because of politics with Gregoir and/or because of Lily. Jowan was screwed.

 

Remove the pressure and you remove the motivation for him to do the stupid **** he did.

 

As for Connor, remove the ominous fears of sending him to the circle and his mother wouldn't have been so drastic either. What if he was allowed tutors.. or just weekends.. or something...anything less controlling. She might have not tried taking it in her hands. The whole idea of ripping families apart (either permanently or indefinitely) is messed up. There are primitive tribes.. and even animals.. that aren't even cool with this. This desire to make this world more orderly and "civilized" makes it more insane.

[Gervaise]

The thing is about the Connor situation is that it was made something of a nonsense of by subsequent stories and codices.    True he would have been sent to the Circle but unlike peasant children, Isolde would have been able to keep contact with him, whether by letter or actually visiting him.   Even in the strictest regime of them all in Kirkwall, the Du Lancet's were in regular contact with their son and Bethany received frequent visits from her family.   When Emile ran away, his father was able to appeal for clemency, which you suspect would not have been the case for a commoner, since their families were being persecuted for hiding runaways.   I wouldn't mind betting the illegal rite of Tranquility being performed on so many mages would have been picked up far sooner if any children of nobles had been involved.   Nor would I imagine would Templars get away with abusing the children of nobles.   It was also possible to arrange for Bethany to leave the Circle to attend Duke Prosper's hunting party, as well as look into the attacks on the family in Legacy.   This is the way nobles are treated.   Vivienne was not lying about this.  As an Orlesian Isolde would know of nobles with children there who had been able to negotiate better treatment for their children, hand picked Templars to look after them, able to live outside the Circle once they had been properly trained.     The only thing Connor could not do would be inherit the title from his father but that would surely be something that would trouble Eamon more than Isolde.   Still the idea that Isolde did what she did because otherwise she would never see Connor again was nonsense.   He came from a powerful noble family and in Thedas there is one rule for the rich/titled and another for the poor/commoner.