1158 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord of War]

I really don't think occasional visits and letters are an acceptable alternative for getting to raise your own (and only) son, especially in Isolde's case.

[introverted_assassin]

I think the one problem that I have with it all is the fact that it's easier to file the Mages away in a tower and forget about them in the sense that it creates this fear among the mundane that they are dangerous because nobody has contact with them. if you lock that sect of society away and pushed this image that all Mages are dangerous because, the ones that you actually seem to run into fit that description, the prevalent thought is that all Mages are dangerous and have to be locked away. why not make it so that Mages are a commonplace thing and are not locked away in some Tower away from society? College of Magi comes to mind...like yeah we have these powers and are responsible enough to train ourselves accordingly...without force.

Snatching children from their families isn't working. I believe that aids in fostering the resentment and escalates that us vs them mentality.

[MisterJB]

I don't think Connor's freedom is worth more than the lives of everyone in Redcliff.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I don't think Connor's freedom is worth more than the lives of everyone in Redcliff.

So when are morrigan and Kieran going to the circle?

[Hellion Rex]

So when are morrigan and Kieran going to the circle?

Why even bring those two up? Assuming one could even track them down what makes you think you would have any chance at dragging them to a Circle?

[Dean_the_Young]

So when are morrigan and Kieran going to the circle?

 

Probably after that codex is found. It's sure to be an epic quest to find it.

[Catilina]

She was being selfish pure and simple, she didn't think about the possible ramifications her decisions would have and her son and husband paid the price.  If he is sent to the Circle we can see in the epilogue that indeed she had no reason to be frightened of his future, and we know that it is very possible for families to visit mages and vice versa (or at least so given power and influence which Eamon has)

The fact, that Isolde are stupid or/and selfish (beautiful, ugly, fat or thin) or just weak, does not make to more acceptable the Circle system. Not all parents give their children to prison voluntarily. This is selfish? Stupid? Let's just judge those who are not willing to do this! But (almost) all parents are happy to give their children to school. 

[MisterJB]

If you are saying that your right to raise your child is more important than the lives of everyone around you, then you are selfish.

 

If you are failing to take into account you're likely to end up a victim of your child's rampage, then you are stupid.

[Catilina]

If you are saying that your right to raise your child is more important than the lives of everyone around you, then you are selfish.

 

If you are failing to take into account you're likely to end up a victim of your child's rampage, then you are stupid.

And desperate. The system is wrong.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why even bring those two up? Assuming one could even track them down what makes you think you would have any chance at dragging them to a Circle?

Because jb says no exceptions are to be made as all mages should be in the circle yet he showed hypocrisy in saying he would never put his mage wife and child in a circle. I'm wondering why they get a pass yet people like Isolde should give up their families to the circle with the beleif in he greater good?

If you are saying that your right to raise your child is more important than the lives of everyone around you, then you are selfish.

If you are failing to take into account you're likely to end up a victim of your child's rampage, then you are stupid.

[MisterJB]

And desperate. The system is wrong.

 

It's not perfect but let's really analyze this.

 

Uldred, a senior enchanter is posessed by the most powerful type of demon there is. The Abomination proceeds to create more, summon untold numbers of lesser demons, raise the dead, bewitch Templars creating a veritable small army.

How many non-mage civillians casualties? Not a one.

 

Meredith's sister, a little girl with no training is possessed by a random demon. 72 casualties.

 

What is the difference between these two cases? Uldred was in a Circle, Meredith's sister was in a town.

 

So yes, the system is not perfect by any means but it certainly works.

[Catilina]

It's not perfect but let's really analyze this.

 

Uldred, a senior enchanter is posessed by the most powerful type of demon there is. The Abomination proceeds to create more, summon untold numbers of lesser demons, raise the dead, bewitch Templars creating a veritable small army.

How many non-mage civillians casualties? Not a one.

 

Meredith's sister, a little girl with no training is possessed by a random demon. 72 casualties.

 

What is the difference between these two cases? Uldred was in a Circle, Meredith's sister was in a town.

 

So yes, the system is not perfect by any means but it certainly works.

Lady Harimann. She was "normal", not mage.The danger is there elsewhere. Everyone can be dangerous. Everyone should be closed, before thinking about sin.

[MisterJB]

Because jb says no exceptions are to be made as all mages should be in the circle yet he showed hypocrisy in saying he would never put his mage wife and child in a circle. I'm wondering why they get a pass yet people like Isolde should give up their families to the circle with the beleif in he greater good?
 

Not at all, mein guter freund! I am a firm believer in making allowances for mages who, through hardship and service, have proven their strength and character; after all, without a carrot, mages are more likely to rebel against the system. Helping to stop a Blight is a good benchmark.

Now, who has Morrigan harmed that did not seek to harm her first? No one. When did she ever show likelihood of falling to possession? Never. When did she ever took action or even expressed a desire to rule over Man? Again, never.

[Hellion Rex]

Lady Harimann. She was "normal", not mage.The danger is there elsewhere. Everyone can be dangerous. Everyone should be closed, before thinking about sin.

You have no proof whatsoever that she didn't have magic. She simply could have hidden her abilities.

[Daerog]

The back and forth is great; however we are dealing with lore that isn't all that solid. Tolkien spent decades on his stuff and there are still some contradictions and cracks in the lore.

The best "evidence" tends to be codex entries and the World of Thedas, as all else is made for fun and drama first, what sticks to the lore comes later.

Dwarves don't dream or hear the whispers of demons, and yet there was a dwarf abomination that became a dwarf revenant in The Calling novel (iirc)... how does that work? If normal dwarves can go all abomination under great stress, why don't more mundanes get possessed in all the crazy wars and oppression? Was there some possessed item in that room, like an enchanted axe?

There is also a disconnect between how mages are said to live and in game experience.

The discussion is still fun, but all the evidence is faulty. Except for dev quotes and probably what is written in WoT.

[Catilina]

[...]
The discussion is still fun...

And what else do we need?

[Hellion Rex]

The back and forth is great; however we are dealing with lore that isn't all that solid. Tolkien spent decades on his stuff and there are still some contradictions and cracks in the lore.

The best "evidence" tends to be codex entries and the World of Thedas, as all else is made for fun and drama first, what sticks to the lore comes later.

Dwarves don't dream or hear the whispers of demons, and yet there was a dwarf abomination that became a dwarf revenant in The Calling novel (iirc)... how does that work? If normal dwarves can go all abomination under great stress, why don't more mundanes get possessed in all the crazy wars and oppression? Was there some possessed item in that room, like an enchanted axe?

There is also a disconnect between how mages are said to live and in game experience.

The discussion is still fun, but all the evidence is faulty. Except for dev quotes and probably what is written in WoT.

Hold up, there is a clarification that has to be made here. An abomination is ONLY a living mage that has been possessed. The dwarf you are referring to was simply possessed, nothing more. A revanant is also not an abomination. To be an abomination you have to be both living and have magic when possessed. There is nothing that says dwarves can't be targeted by demons or hear them, dwarves simply don't visit the fade as they dream.

[Daerog]

And what else do we need?

I'm just hoping all the interest in the inherent danger of being a mage is not lost in favor of DnD sorcerers or Harry Potter wizards.

I like the drama of great power bringing great danger. It makes any mage who strives for discipline and restraint heroic, even the ones who have little power or magical potential.

[Catilina]

You have no proof whatsoever that she didn't have magic. She simply could have hidden her abilities.

Does not matter. May be closed without evidence. If there is no need criminal act to imprisonment anyone, then why need the evidence for it?

 

Well, then seriously: does not need to be a mage someone to awaken a demon's attention. Good enough to have strong desires. It is true that the mages can be easier preys, because they is connected to the Fade.

[Daerog]

Hold up, there is a clarification that has to be made here. An abomination is ONLY a living mage that has been possessed. The dwarf you are referring to was simply possessed, nothing more. A revanant is also not an abomination. To be an abomination you have to be both living and have magic when possessed. There is nothing that says dwarves can't be targeted by demons or hear them, dwarves simply don't visit the fade as they dream.

The dwarf was a mundane, not a mage. When the darkspawn began destroying the dwarf empire, a dwarf leader was possessed and killed all dwarves and darkspawn in a closed room.

Jump to the Dragon Age, Maric and Company find the corpse of that dwarf, the demon stirs and traps the party in the Fade, similar to the Fade part in Origins.

Looking up the definition in the lore, the possessed needs magical abilities to be considered an abomination, so I guess the dwarf wouldn't be considered an abomination. Okay, thanks for correcting me.

I was just pointing out that there is a lack of mundane possessed being mentioned, if it does happen, during Blights and such. Are mundanes just as susceptible as mages? Or was that just a once in an Age incident?

[Lulupab]

If something like the college or even bright hand existed during Connor incident, it was pretty like Isolde would send Connor there willingly knowing that he would be trained free of potential suffering. I mean other than dangers of magic itself. Also she would know that they would very likely let Connor go after the training, unless he showed clear signs of lack of control or something.

 

I truly believe mages should be able to leave after proper evaluation. I mean in how many incidents a circle trained mage got accidentally possessed? 

 

Also regarding "Is a mage's freedom worth blah blah". I'd say the same thing about Nobles. They have power too and if intents are malicious they have the potential to kill more than mages. After all it was Tevinter's NOBLE mages who conquered south, not the mages in general because that represents the pinnacle of power, both magic and nobility. So why should people suffer in order for tarts with crowns to lead luxury lives?

 

That said I always agreed with mages not being able to be Nobles.

[Hellion Rex]

 

 

Also regarding "Is a mage's freedom worth blah blah". I'd say the same thing about Nobles. They have power too and if intents are malicious they have the potential to kill more than mages. After all it was Tevinter's NOBLE mages who conquered south, not the mages in general because that represents the pinnacle of power, both magic and nobility. So why should people suffer in order for tarts with crowns to lead luxury lives?

 

I don't think you can definitively say the "noble mages" conquered the South. Perhaps they were doling out all the orders, but it was most definitively the collective mages of the Imperium (not just nobles) who brought the South to its knees.

[Lulupab]

I don't think you can definitively say the "noble mages" conquered the South. Perhaps they were doling out all the orders, but it was most definitively the collective mages of the Imperium (not just nobles) who brought the South to its knees.

 

Masses are easily to manipulate anyway, but the people behind this manipulation were the noble mages. Not to mention mages of the south had nothing to do with that invasion. In fact Tevinter attacked and created hostility between mages and mundanes but it was not Tevinter who paid the price, it was southern mages, who are still paying that price. 

 

On another related note to this thread, the old circles are gone for good in all of the endings, no matter who becomes divine. We have college if Leliana becomes divine. We either have the bright hand or a much free circle if Cassandra becomes divine (depends on who you side with). And we have a circle fully in control of mages if Vivienne becomes divine, in which case Templars become nothing much different than Templars in Tevinter, glorified watchdogs.

 

So in a sense Templars get the boot on 2/3 of the endings. Even in Cassandra's case they are only able to keep their old power and prestige if you actually side with Templars, since if you side with mages they create the bright hand which is not so different than college aka Templar free.

 

My point is it was obvious the game would lead us to a state where mages have better lives no matter what, however the scale of this "better" is in player's hand. But there is no option to bring the old circles back and definitely no option to make more restrictions on their lives.

[mireisen]

*snip*

 

My point is it was obvious the game would lead us to a state where mages have better lives no matter what, however the scale of this "better" is in player's hand. But there is no option to bring the old circles back and definitely no option to make more restrictions on their lives.

 

I sided with mages in DAO1, templars in DA2, and mages in DAI, because it's a eeny meeny miny moe situation at this point for me.

 

The state of magic is definitely going to change. But playing it through with Trespasser spoilers in mind I figure it might not matter in the end, anyways. Might as well try to ally with the best chance you've got to fight back (freed mages).

[Lord of War]

Then again, you have Vivienne's new Circle if she isn't Divine, but I'm not really sure how it's supposed to work if the Templars are already gone.