83 réponses à ce sujet

[BloodyMares]

I understand the whole "formulaic/always happened before the final mission" quip....but the relationships already moved obnoxiously fast. Making them moving any faster would further destroy any modicum of immersion there was left. If anything, I'd say change the formula, make each romance entirely unique from the next. But definitely don't make it "move faster". We don't need intergalactic speed dating.

It's not actually about progressing the relationships faster, It's more of a "Can we get over the sex already so we can move to the interesting stuff"? Sex shouldn't be the reward. Reward should be presented as some emotional bond you share with that other character, some revelation probably from your love interest. If people started relationships just to have sex then how would they last beyond that? "Well, we already had sex, I guess it makes sense for us to break up and move on to bone other people".

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't mind if they have some romances in Mass Effect have sex come in sooner than in the past, as long as they go the opposite way as well and have some romances where sex isn't required for the romance and instead optional, ambiguous, or explicitly not part of the romance. There are people who have relationships like that as well, so would be good to have those as an option too. 

[Mcfly616]

It's not actually about progressing the relationships faster, It's more of a "Can we get over the sex already so we can move to the interesting stuff"? Sex shouldn't be the reward. Reward should be presented as some emotional bond you share with that other character, some revelation probably from your love interest. If people started relationships just to have sex then how would they last beyond that? "Well, we already had sex, I guess it makes sense for us to break up and move on to bone other people".

I don't look at sex as the reward. I just see it as passions heating up with the prospect of imminent death on the horizon. 

[BloodyMares]

I don't mind if they have some romances in Mass Effect have sex come in sooner than in the past, as long as they go the opposite way as well and have some romances where sex isn't required for the romance and instead optional, ambiguous, or explicitly not part of the romance. There are people who have relationships like that as well, so would be good to have those as an option too. 

Not a bad idea. Romance scenes were always optional as I remember because you could always decline and say that's not the right time.
And for relationships without sex at all... such people are a minority. They can put one asexual character just for variety sake but if there are at least two then it will break my suspension of disbelief.

[BloodyMares]

I don't look at sex as the reward. I just see it as passions heating up with the prospect of imminent death on the horizon. 

If you look at it from the story perspective, sure. But I look at it from the gameplay perspective. Sex is the high point of the romance mechanics. And the game basically has nothing to add to the relationship after the "juicy stuff". It's like the feelings aren't there anymore for some reason. That's why Tali's romance was my favorite because there are these little scenes during missions that reinforce the idea that these characters are in love, not just having a fling.

[Shechinah]

Not a bad idea. Except such people are a minority.

 

I'm leaving the rest out because it can be discussed back and forth through hundreds of pages without change and that is not what this thread is about is I think it's best to leave it out least it unintentionally causes a derailment.  

 

As to the rest, Hanako Ikezawa did suggest that. amongst other things, the sexual content in some romances could be optional as oppose to being mandatory content. For a number of reasons, I'd like to see this as well. Not all of the reasons extend to preferring a relationship to be such: some reasons are connected to story and characters.

 

One of the reasons is that the content can occur at an awkward or bad time so it'd be nice with a "Not now" option: the option basically boils down to it is not a no to sex, it is a no to sex right now.

 

This was something that could have been nice in Mass Effect 2, in my opinion, since intimate relations with certain party members literally ran the risk of incapcitating Shepard and even a crewmember. I get what they were going for with the whole we-might-die-and-this-may-be-our-last-night-together but they built the mission up to be so important and needing everybody to be at their best so it seemed a bit... well.   
 

Note: my opinionated opinion.

[BloodyMares]

This was something that could have been nice in Mass Effect 2, in my opinion, since intimate relations with certain party members literally ran the risk of incapcitating Shepard and even a crewmember. I get what they were going for with the whole we-might-die-and-this-may-be-our-last-night-together but they built the mission up to be so important and needing everybody to be at their best so it seemed a bit... well.   

I don't know what is your problem. Every Mass Effect game had option to reject sex. Nobody raped my Shepard.

[Shechinah]

I don't know what is your problem. Every Mass Effect game had option to reject sex. Nobody raped my Shepard.

 

I've... never said anyone raped Shepard.

 

I may have not provided clear enough elaboration on the latter part of my post so here it is rephrased and brief; I thought the timing of the sex in Mass Effect 2 could be ill-timed due to the mission and the importance the game puts on it. This is partially because of how in some romances, intimate contact risked causing negative consequences for Shepard or a certain party member due to the differences between their respective races' biology.

 

 I do not recall there having been an option to say no to sex in Mass Effect 2 without simultaneously ending the romance but that may be me being mistaken?
 

[BloodyMares]

I do not recall there having been an option to say no to sex in Mass Effect 2 without simultaneously ending the romance but that may be me being mistaken?

Oh really? I've never actually romanced anyone in ME2 because I didn't want Tali to die because of infection and other characters just don't make sense to me for a romance choice (Cerberus officer? A murderous biotic psychopath? Really?). They get offended if you turn them down? Now that speaks how childish certain characters in ME2 are.

[Shechinah]

 They get offended if you turn them down? Now that speaks how childish certain characters in ME2 are.

 

It's more that, as far as I can recall, the choices you are presented with during the final cutscene in the romance right before the sex portion is to go ahead with the romance or to end the romance: there is no option, to my knowledge, to basically say; "not now". 

 

I believe there was an option in the first Mass Effect to basically say not now during the final cutscene in the romance but I've heard about that from others as I've yet to romance anyone in that game and so cannot confirm it myself. 
 

[BloodyMares]

It's more that, as far as I can recall, the choices you are presented with during the final cutscene in the romance right before the sex portion is to go ahead with the romance or to end the romance: there is no option, to my knowledge, to basically say; "not now". 

 

I believe there was an option in the first Mass Effect to basically say not now during the final cutscene in the romance but I've heard about that from others as I've yet to romance anyone in that game and so cannot confirm it myself. 
 

Damn, I thought ME2 was stupid only in the main plot and did a decent job with handling its characters. I guess I was wrong.

I can confirm though that in both ME1 and ME3 it doesn't matter if you have sex or not, romance will still continue (but doesn't have any content after that though). If you turn down Ashley in ME1 she says that she will go and entertain herself (which basically means she's going to masturbate).
Here's proof:

[UpUpAway]

Oh really? I've never actually romanced anyone in ME2 because I didn't want Tali to die because of infection and other characters just don't make sense to me for a romance choice (Cerberus officer? A murderous biotic psychopath? Really?). They get offended if you turn them down? Now that speaks how childish certain characters in ME2 are.

 

You can get around the sex scenes simply by only confirming the desire for a relationship after the suicide mission.  That way, the romance does carry over into ME3 without a sex scene taking place (as long as you import the actual save after you do confirm the relationship).

[BloodyMares]

You can get around the sex scenes simply by only confirming the desire for a relationship after the suicide mission.  That way, the romance does carry over into ME3 without a sex scene taking place (as long as you import the actual save after you do confirm the relationship).

The way that you need to "get around" still leaves a bad taste. The romance scene is not something that can be...forced.

[Beerfish]

Just copy and paste the Anders romance from DA2.

 

Player: Hi Anders pleased to meet you!

Anders:  Wait I'll get my things I'm moving in!"

Player: Wait....wut?

[UpUpAway]

The way that you need to "get around" still leaves a bad taste. The romance scene is not something that can be...forced.

 

Not saying it was exceptionally well done... just saying that it is still possible to "skip" the sex and have a romance carryover into ME3.  As far as I know, if you reject their sex offers before the suicide mission, you do offend them (and lets face it, that is the way some people do react if there partner is not yet ready to have sex when they do... so that's the way Bioware wrote it in ME2).

 

Overall, I find any game RPG romances to be somewhat "forced," or "clunky" or "teenaged" or etc.  If I want natural romances, I don't go looking in a videogame and I wouldn't recommend anyone else look for accurate romance examples in videogames either.

[BloodyMares]

Not saying it was exceptionally well done... just saying that it is still possible to "skip" the sex and have a romance carryover into ME3.  As far as I know, if you reject their sex offers before the suicide mission, you do offend them (and lets face it, that is the way some people do react if there partner is not yet ready to have sex when they do... so that's the way Bioware wrote it in ME2).

 

Overall, I find any game RPG romances to be somewhat "forced," or "clunky" or "teenaged" or etc.  If I want natural romances, I don't go looking in a videogame and I wouldn't recommend anyone else look for accurate romance examples in videogames either.

I agree that some people would react negatively about rejecting sex like Miranda: "You want to say that you don't want my perfect body?" But Tali? The quarian with weak immune systems who can actually die of intimate contact with Shepard BEFORE the most important mission? This is nuts. Of all the things she should react understandibly and admit that this is indeed a bad time for risking her health plus Shepard's quarters are probably crawling with Cerberus bugs. And of all people her romance should've been purely platonic. Plus it's not like she can't feel pleasure through her suit...

And it's not about seeking romance in the game. Games, like movies, are stories. In these games I don't look for a virtual girlfriend, I look for a nice chemistry between characters. In the movies romance happens for a reason, It provides stakes, gives the protagonist some character etc. Same with these types of games.

[Cyonan]

Just copy and paste the Anders romance from DA2.

 

Player: Hi Anders pleased to meet you!

Anders:  Wait I'll get my things I'm moving in!"

Player: Wait....wut?

 

and then he proceeds to spend the rest of the romance telling you what a terrible idea it would be to romance him.

[Hammerstorm]

I don't know if I may have misinterpreted the romance with Jack, but i always see it as they only cuddle before the final mission. (for it seems weird to have sex when she just had a breakthrough about her feelings). 

 

Or was I the only one that thought that?

[Pasquale1234]

As to the rest, Hanako Ikezawa did suggest that. amongst other things, the sexual content in some romances could be optional as oppose to being mandatory content. For a number of reasons, I'd like to see this as well. Not all of the reasons extend to preferring a relationship to be such: some reasons are connected to story and characters.

I think part of the issue some people have with that approach is that they count on Bioware to do all of the storytelling - and if it didn't happen on-camera, it didn't happen as far as they are concerned.

I personally don't expect any form of cinematic media to fill in all of the details of every moment of a character's life. I expect the characters eat, sleep, shower, pee, brush their teeth, etc., even though I don't see any of these things happening on-camera. Fiction writers usually tell us only those parts that establish / reveal character and setting, or promote movement in the plot-line.

So I guess there's always been some assumption on my part that there is more interaction between the PC and intended LI than what is actually presented on-camera - and that can include sex. Just because Bioware provides only one sex scene per playthrough does not mean I assume my character has sex only once per playthrough.

So there are other reasons why I value having some ambiguity built into romance arcs.

[Quarian Master Race]

I agree that some people would react negatively about rejecting sex like Miranda: "You want to say that you don't want my perfect body?" But Tali? The quarian with weak immune systems who can actually die of intimate contact with Shepard BEFORE the most important mission? This is nuts. Of all the things she should react understandibly and admit that this is indeed a bad time for risking her health plus Shepard's quarters are probably crawling with Cerberus bugs. And of all people her romance should've been purely platonic. Plus it's not like she can't feel pleasure through her suit...

And it's not about seeking romance in the game. Games, like movies, are stories. In these games I don't look for a virtual girlfriend, I look for a nice chemistry between characters. In the movies romance happens for a reason, It provides stakes, gives the protagonist some character etc. Same with these types of games.

On the other side, Tali's a 24 year old who grew up loving sappy romance flicks, but is still a virgin because she's stuck in a suit with shitty immune disorders. She's probably horny AF (as people of that age group naturally tend to be) and likely tired of getting her rocks off by ****** a piece of suit software at this point. She doesn't exactly react negatively when rejected, anyway, merely saying something like "*sigh* can't fault a girl for trying" then walks out, which honestly is much nicer than I would have put it if a dude had led me on for weeks/months, made me do all kinds of research and jump through hoops due to medical reasons to have a physical relationship, then rejected me anyway. She wants sex, so it makes perfect sense that she gives up on your Shep if he has the libido of a plant, and decides to look elsewhere where there might be someone more compatible with what she wants, like say the forward battery. ( and honestly, the whole "I could die" thing is so overblown for cheap drama to the point of being completely cheesy and laughably stupid, anyway. Like, you're worried about safe snu snu, but going on missions and getting goddamn shot multiple times is totally fine, idiot?)

Honestly, I'd hate it if characters didn't have a predefined attitude on what they want from a relationship. It seemed dumb in ME1 (especially with Ashley), and it'd be dumb with anyone else. Characters should act like people, not malleable drones for your ideal roleplaying experience (they already act far too much like that), and real people who want sex have needs. They aren't just going to be like "sure, I'll wait forever", they're going to start looking elsewhere if you aren't willing to give them what they want in a reasonable timeframe. Assuming otherwise is as self centered and offensive as a character who is defined as willfully abstinent due to religious/cultural reasons suddenly wanting to bang the PC (arguably moreso, because sex drive is innate and natural to everyone who doesn't have a biological disorder, and can't really be completely suppressed, whereas abstinence is a function of the superego that can be easily modified by a new worldview).

We're all animals, and most of us just wanna bang. If anything, it should happen sooner rather than later.

 

[BloodyMares]

On the other side, Tali's a 24 year old who grew up loving sappy romance flicks, but is still a virgin because she's stuck in a suit with shitty immune disorders. She's probably horny AF (as people of that age group naturally tend to be) and likely tired of getting her rocks off by ****** a piece of suit software at this point. She doesn't exactly react negatively when rejected, anyway, just something like "*sigh* can't fault a girl for trying" then walks out, which honestly is much nicer than I would have put it if a dude had led me on for weeks/months, made me do all kinds of research and jump through hoops due to medical reasons to have a physical relationship, then rejected me anyway. She wants sex, so it makes perfect sense that she gives up on your Shep if he has the libido of a plant, and decides to look elsewhere where there might be someone more compatible with what she wants, like say the forward battery. ( and honestly, the whole "I could die" thing is so overblown for cheap drama to the point of being completely cheesy and laughably stupid, anyway. Like, you're worried about safe snu snu, but going on missions and getting goddamn shot multiple times is totally fine, idiot?)

You bring up very good points, I admit that I overlooked the fact that she could very much be horny which makes perfect sense. Yes, she would be angry at Shepard who rejects her in the last moment. BUT. The suicide mission is the most important mission in ME2 for Shepard and he needs everyone at their best. The most logical solution would be to talk with Tali about that in the most Shepard way. Just discuss what they expect from the relationship and instead of leading her on just explain that there would be plenty of times for that after they save the galaxy. Or if the need is really strong just pleasure Tali through her suit while she can fool around with Shepard. Second base is still better than nothing.

[Quarian Master Race]

You bring up very good points, I admit that I overlooked the fact that she could very much be horny which makes perfect sense. Yes, she would be angry at Shepard who rejects her in the last moment. BUT. The suicide mission is the most important mission in ME2 for Shepard and he needs everyone at their best. The most logical solution would be to talk with Tali about that in the most Shepard way. Just discuss what they expect from the relationship and instead of leading her on just explain that there would be plenty of times for that after they save the galaxy. Or if the need is really strong just pleasure Tali through her suit while she can fool around with Shepard. Second base is still better than nothing.

She definitely is, look at the suit process log from LotSB (which remains the same even if you're a femshep). It's only natural, especially considering  she's basically been denied for medical reasons that are outside her control (even seeming to experess frustration with it at one point).

Or just do it long before or after the mission.....you know, that way on the off chance there are negative effects they either don't matter much (after) or so Tali's nonsense space magic immunology has a chance to "adapt" (before, like it apparently does between ME2 and 3). 

The relationships always needing to culminate in sex right before the final mission simply for drama's sake (and even when it doesn't make sense) actually is pretty juvenile, and I agree are something that should go. It was fine in ME3, where it was implied that the LI's were screwing all through the game anyway (in places like the IoS app, look at Kaidan's, Liara's, Garrus' or Tali's in particular).
http://masseffect.wi...ffect:_Datapad)and the endgame scene was just the only explicit example.

but ME1 and 2 were pretty dumb. Okay, there's the fraternization regs excuse for the two VS in ME1, but if they're so willing to break them anyway at the first sign of an excuse, I doubt they were really that interested in following them in the first place.

[Gothfather]

I understand the whole "formulaic/always happened before the final mission" quip....but the relationships already moved obnoxiously fast. Making them move any faster would further destroy any modicum of immersion there was left. If anything, I'd say change the formula, make each romance entirely unique from the next. But definitely don't make it "move faster". We don't need intergalactic speed dating.

hahaha In Dragon age 2 you literally court your love interest for YEARS before you have sex. In DA:I the time scale from the conclave to the end of the vanilla game is about two years. Which was the same for DA:O as well. To me the romance arcs are ridiculously slow based on the actual game time scale. I don't know the exact times for the Mass Effect series but ME1 was over a year if I recall correctly, ME2 was actually pretty short and ME3 I can't recall the scales but it was over a year wasn't it?

 

In pretty much every Bioware game the romance arcs are moving at a snail's pace. I mean people know that the time in the game isn't 1 to 1 right? That days  can go by in transit and if you dock at the citadel to turn in one quest you don't actually turn around a leave right away. There is shore leave and reprovisioning maintenance of the ship and these take TIME.

[fhs33721]

and then he proceeds to spend the rest of the romance telling you what a terrible idea it would be to romance him.

Hey don't hate on the poor guy when he actually gives solid advice for once.

[spinachdiaper]

Bioware's relationship arcs seriously follow the Victorian era's ideals for romance.