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Gameplay Differences Based on Playable Character's Gender


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#76
Dalinne

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Are you insane? You just mentioned it. In fact, you even brought it up with more examples.  Like I said, gender denigration is only a problem for you when it happens to women, you encourage it to happen to men. Also, as Wrex (accurately) points out, they aren't equal. Having women on the front lines in a battle is a stupid idea because of the genophage. This was quite similar to hunting and gathering way back in prehistory, the women did the work that was less dangerous because the biological differences inherent with human pregnancy. 

 

You're right: They aren't equal. Given the genophage, however, they really can't be. 

 

Because of the Genophage, a lot of female Krogan are sterile. Why couldn't they become warriors or mercenaries as the males of their species? 1)Because they put the women in a tribe without given to consideration their ability to fight if they are sterile (that's the epitome of sexism of the Krogan). 2) Because the developers didn't know if they will gonna make the model of the female krogans  :lol:

 

 

Don't speak about Prehistory and biological issues. I respect a lot my fellow prehistorians, but without writen sources, the interpretation of the few data they find is pretty subjective and very limitated by our own preconceptions.

And the biological differences between males and females are not so crucial as you make. You are probably stronger than some women and some women are stronger than you. Men are capable of feeling and having empathy and women can be violent. The difference is what society make as model. Men is the measure of all things, even right now despite things are changing.


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#77
The Real Pearl #2

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I love the andromurder forums 


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#78
drummerchick

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My femSheps are jealous that my broShep got a kiss from Gianna Parasini and they didn't.   :wub:

 

Heaven forbid a woman should be straight. 

*bris

Summer Donna, Heterosexual Enforcement Squad Leader. 

You see, while not a part of combat mechanics, dialogue and NPC interactions are a part of playing the game, or "gameplay" if you will.
I was attempting (and obviously failing) to humorously point out the existence of a gender-based gameplay difference, which is, in fact, the subject of this polarizing thread.

Sorry I'm not funny. I will make every attempt to rectalfy that.  :)



#79
DuskWanderer

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Because of the Genophage, a lot of female Krogan are sterile. Why couldn't they become warriors or mercenaries as the males of their species? 1)Because they put the women in a tribe without given to consideration their ability to fight if they are sterile (that's the epitome of sexism of the Krogan). 2) Because the developers didn't know if they will gonna make the model of the female krogans  :lol:

 

 

Don't speak about Prehistory and biological issues. I respect a lot my fellow prehistorians, but without writen sources, the interpretation of the few data they find is pretty subjective and very limitated by our own preconceptions.

And the biological differences between males and females are not so crucial as you make. You are probably stronger than some women and some women are stronger than you. Men are capable of feeling and having empathy and women can be violent. The difference is what society make as model. Men is the measure of all things, even right now despite things are changing.

They are put in a separate tribe away from the fight because of their value: As the story states, very little is more valuable to a krogan than fertile females. 

 

I also asked you a question. Am I to take from your silence that you accept my statement? That you are only angry when someone denigrates all women, but are quite happy when someone denigrates all men?



#80
Battlebloodmage

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Too much resources would have to be spent on that, and doing things like this just tend to end with girls being weaker and guys being stronger so they could do more with the strength and girls will use some tactics like seduction or something. Although I kinda hope for some variations to some actual romance, all bi characters are basically react the same the save resources. If it would cost the same to animate bi characters than making separate scenes then make some separate scenes or dialogues for bi characters. Maybe a bi guy shy around the girl the first time but more comfortable and treating the guy like a bro and things like that. Outside of romance, maybe some acknowledge on gender is enough, no need to give differences based on gameplay, I can already see them do something like give femRyder weaker physical and meelee attacks but strong biotic shooting abilities but maleRyder is the opposite. 



#81
Hanako Ikezawa

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Because of the Genophage, a lot of female Krogan are sterile. Why couldn't they become warriors or mercenaries as the males of their species? 1)Because they put the women in a tribe without given to consideration their ability to fight if they are sterile (that's the epitome of sexism of the Krogan). 2) Because the developers didn't know if they will gonna make the model of the female krogans  :lol:

They are not sterile. The Genophage did not make any krogan sterile. That was a huge goal of the salarians, to find a way to limit the krogan birthrate to stop the overpopulation problems but also a way to keep the krogan from being sterile which would result in genocide. Eventually they calculated that the 1 in 1000 birthrate was the best option so implemented it. As monstrous as it is, they had a point since if the krogan peacefully colonized a less hostile world than Tuchanka they would still have one of the best population growth rates of all Milky Way species. 

But since they are on Tuchanka which is extremely hostile and they continue to fight others and themselves, the numbers are at risk so every female krogan is protected since all can produce children which is the only thing keeping them from extinction.

 

 

i.e. first new Tomb Raider you have a sutil rapey scene.

It's a bit silly to make comparisons to "every encounter with an Asari" because one scene with Lara in the new TR is a bit rapey or Sten has one conversation about women in the Qun.

What scene in that game was "rapey"? I've played it and there isn't a single scene that comes off as "rapey." 



#82
Cyonan

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I'm scared of what new strange and bizarre part of David Cage is gonna be released with Detroit...  :D  :D  :D

I'm definitely not saying the treatment of female characters are bad in general in Dragon Age, Mass Effect or Fallout 4 . As a female player I feel pretty comfortable playing those games, they have pretty good characters both sex, regardless of their race, age, magical powers or lack of...

I'm talking about little moments, very especific times where my inmersion as a player broke because of rapey scenes (none in Bioware or Bethesta that I can think of) or little moments with sexist characters. Of course I know sexism of certain characters doesn't mean Bioware is sexist! But gives me the the impression of lazy writing: they use moments like this without purpose, just for shock value or because they want you to feel uncomfortable. 

I'm not saying they must not use elements to make us feel uncomfortable. I'm saying if you want to make us, the players, feel uncomfortable you have to work hard on the enviroment, in the scene, in the agresive way of a character appears, on music, on dialogue... Don't throw a sexist comment or a slur in order to gain that easily. It's not morally wrong, it's just lazy writing!

 

It's not exactly without purpose.

 

In Mass Effect it's used to show that Harkin is a sleazeball of a guy, and in Mass Effect 2 it's used to show that the Blue Suns Recruiter(and Omega as a whole) is a sleazy place. Such places exist in the real world, and it gives impact when it's direct at the player.

 

With Sten it's used to show that there is considerable differences in the societal structures between the Qunari and everybody else, and you can challenge him on it. It gave the Qun a flaw and fit with the whole "You must always remain at the position you were given" thing they had going on. The Qunari in Origins were portrayed as a very ordered and closed minded race.

 

Sure there are other ways to establish such things but there are always multiple ways to establish a character. It's not lazy just because it makes people uncomfortable.

 

I don't think that a writer should shy away from a topic simply because it makes people uncomfortable, because there are a lot of topics out there that people will have a similar opinion of that you do of sexism. Should we just never direct anything bad about Humanity at the player because somebody is going to find it uncomfortable?

 

Having trained in Jeet Kune Do I agree. But strength is a must for any martial artist regardless of "style" or gender. Bruce Lee emphasized strength and flexibility training. Not trying to sound sexist but thats how a lot of men overpower women. Don't underestimate physical power. In Brazilian jiu jitsu leverage and proper technique can defeat one who has bigger strength and size. But in a real fight it's not that easy. A bigger stronger individual is a huge threat. You have to be smart about fighting. You're not invincible. They can still knock you out in one hit if you're not careful. Form, flexibility, speed, and power. Having all those attributes in abundance is most important.

 

Well the point is that strength isn't going to be as big of a deal as people like to make it out to be. It's a factor, just not 90% of the fight.

 

It's also going to be even less of a factor in Mass Effect where all Shep's melees are either a biotic punch or omni-blade attacks. When you can simply increase the mass of your fist on impact, it's gonna hit hard regardless.


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#83
Dalinne

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They are put in a separate tribe away from the fight because of their value: As the story states, very little is more valuable to a krogan than fertile females. 

 

I also asked you a question. Am I to take from your silence that you accept my statement? That you are only angry when someone denigrates all women, but are quite happy when someone denigrates all men?

How in the human hell can I be happy when someone denigrates men?

That's all you got from reading all these lines that I wrote?

I feel like a parent. I guess this is how my parents feel when they spent so many hours trying to explain me something and I sum it up very randomly.

 

Sorry mum. Sorry dad. Kheela s'elai.


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#84
Dalinne

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They are not sterile. The Genophage did not make any krogan sterile. That was a huge goal of the salarians, to find a way to limit the krogan birthrate to stop the overpopulation problems but also a way to keep the krogan from being sterile which would result in genocide. Eventually they calculated that the 1 in 1000 birthrate was the best option so implemented it. As monstrous as it is, they had a point since if the krogan peacefully colonized a less hostile world than Tuchanka they would still have one of the best population growth rates of all Milky Way species. 

But since they are on Tuchanka which is extremely hostile and they continue to fight others and themselves, the numbers are at risk so every female krogan is protected since all can produce children which is the only thing keeping them from extinction.

 

 

What scene in that game was "rapey"? I've played it and there isn't a single scene that comes off as "rapey." 

 

If I recall correctly, Bakara herself says that she discovered she was sterile with her first stillborn.

 

Minute 1:06



#85
Dalinne

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It's not exactly without purpose.

 

In Mass Effect it's used to show that Harkin is a sleazeball of a guy, and in Mass Effect 2 it's used to show that the Blue Suns Recruiter(and Omega as a whole) is a sleazy place. Such places exist in the real world, and it gives impact when it's direct at the player.

 

 

I'm just saying that unpleasent social moments because of the gender could be played for male PC too or none unpleaseant social moments for none. I demand the right of having bad experiences for all!!  :lol:


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#86
sjsharp2011

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Meh. I think the replay value is already there. MaleShep have some different dialogue from Shepard, and there are already different romance path for male and female. Quite frankly, some dialogue/reaction/situation and romance are all the differencee I need as replay value.

 

Agred that's enough for me too tbh.



#87
DuskWanderer

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How in the human hell can I be happy when someone denigrates men?

That's all you got from reading all these lines that I wrote?

I feel like a parent. I guess this is how my parents feel when they spent so many hours trying to explain me something and I sum it up very randomly.

 

Sorry mum. Sorry dad. Kheela s'elai.

Because that is what you said: You stated quite clearly that you get angry at the scene in Omega when it is assumed a femShep is a table dancer because it denigrates women. Later, you mention that you liked the scene when femShep and Eve talk, the one where they "show the men how it's done"

 

I get it, I really do. You claim to be angry about generalization and sexism, but only on your favored group. 



#88
Hanako Ikezawa

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If I recall correctly, Bakara herself says that she discovered she was sterile with her first stillborn.

 

Minute 1:06

*snip*

The fact she later gets pregnant with Mordin shows neither she or the others female krogan were sterile. Limited fertility =/= sterile. 

 

I figured that would be the scene. That scene doesn't come off as rapey to me at all.



#89
AlanC9

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Well, "Eve" was a survivor of Maelon's experiments, so she's not a great example of the genophage in action.

As for sterility, note that a 1/1000 cut in the birthrate doesn't have to be uniformly applied to all females. You could get to the same result with a lot of females being completely sterile and a few being only moderately effected.

#90
Monk

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The fact she later gets pregnant with Mordin shows neither she or the others female krogan were sterile. Limited fertility =/= sterile. 

 

I figured that would be the scene. That scene doesn't come off as rapey to me at all.

 

Think the scene plays out differently for people with experience versus those who don't. From a male who hasn't been raped, the scene's definitely on the creepy side. Based on violent experiences i've dealt with, someone who gets triggered might fill-in contact where none's there. The NPC's definitely written to go for such an encounter.

 
All this considering, it's a scene that needs trigger warnings.


#91
Battlebloodmage

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Think the scene plays out differently for people with experience versus those who don't. From a male who hasn't been raped, the scene's definitely on the creepy side. Based on violent experiences i've dealt with, someone who gets triggered might fill-in contact where none's there. The NPC's definitely written to go for such an encounter.

 
All this considering, it's a scene that needs trigger warnings.

 

I think it's just more of an issue when it comes to rape that almost all rapes happen to females, so people usually associate that she's being raped because she's female while the guys often just get maimed or killed. When a guy get raped, it's either treated as a joke or if it's serious, it's usually a young boy so it's more about the issue of pedophilia. I don't know if guy rape gets joked around because they don't want to face that reality and use humor to avoid it, but it can be a serious issue. Guys can get raped by both males and females, and it can be very traumatized for the guys to be raped. Seeing how the media treats male rape as a joke can be pretty damaging and sweep the issue under the rug. 


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#92
Jedi Comedian

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I think it's just more of an issue when it comes to rape that almost all rapes happen to females, so people usually associate that she's being raped because she's female while the guys often just get maimed or killed. When a guy get raped, it's either treated as a joke or if it's serious, it's usually a young boy so it's more about the issue of pedophile. I don't know if guy rape gets joked around because they don't want to face that reality and use humor to avoid it, but it can be a serious issue. Guys can get raped by both males and females, and it can be very traumatized for the guys to be raped. Seeing how the media treats male rape as a joke can be pretty damaging and sweep the issue under the rug.

American History X is a good example of male rape treated not as a goddamm joke (can't frakin believe there are people in the world that see such thing as a punchline, well frak 'em for being such evil beings) but as the tragedy it is.

#93
Dalinne

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Because that is what you said: You stated quite clearly that you get angry at the scene in Omega when it is assumed a femShep is a table dancer because it denigrates women. Later, you mention that you liked the scene when femShep and Eve talk, the one where they "show the men how it's done"

 

I get it, I really do. You claim to be angry about generalization and sexism, but only on your favored group. 

This attacks are pointless.

I sense your weakness.

Irrelevant.

This hurts you.

You are shortsighted.

Pitiful.

Evolution cannot be stopped.

You prolong the inevitable.

I am the Harbinger of your perfection.



#94
Dalinne

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American History X is a good example of male rape treated not as a goddamm joke (can't frakin believe there are people in the world that see such thing as a punchline, well frak 'em for being such evil beings) but as the tragedy it is.

The Shawshank Redemption is another good example.

However, it's remarkable both examples have a prison as background for male rapes.



#95
Battlebloodmage

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The Shawshank Redemption is another good example.

However, it's remarkable both examples have a prison as background for male rapes.

It's just a common stereotypes with movies and TV shows where rape happens in prison, and it's not the issue of gay preying on other straight guys either. Most of them are actually straight. Statistically, most people engage in homosexuality activity in prison haven't done it before prison and many of them are in straight relationship after prison. It's usually the lack of women, so they use other guys more like a sex toy, and sometimes it's about power and dominant over the other person. Actually, in the military, guys get raped way more than girls and quite frequently. 38 military men are sexually assaulted every single day, according to the Pentagon. The issue is we look down on male victims, guys being raped are being viewed as effeminate and weak. Many of these cases go unreported. There is a culture of men must endure and don't cry. It's often being viewed as shameful for a guy to be raped. Maybe when the media actually starts to treat male rape as a "thing" instead of treating it as a joke, maybe male victims would actually suffer less and may even report these incidents. It's never shameful for the guys to be raped, the shame should be lied on the perpetrator, not the victim. It's sad how we view male rape in society nowadays when it happens everywhere, even outside the prison, in the military, at the party, on the street, or even in the comfort of their home.

 

http://www.gq.com/lo...e-military-rape


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#96
Seboist

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I started thinking about (hypothetical) gameplay differences between the sexes and I remembered how the classic PS1 ninja assassin game "Tenchu" did it; During this one mission where you had to assassinate a corrupt minister, how it plays out differs on which ninja you're playing as, if you're the male ninja Rikimaru, the minister accepts his fate and commits seppuku, but if you play as the female ninja Ayame, he doesn't take her seriously and you end up with an exclusive boss fight.

 

Rikimaru 3:37

 

Ayame 5:33

 

Elements like this are ace ^



#97
EpicNewb

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I started thinking about (hypothetical) gameplay differences between the sexes and I remembered how the classic PS1 ninja assassin game "Tenchu" did it; During this one mission where you had to assassinate a corrupt minister, how it plays out differs on which ninja you're playing as, if you're the male ninja Rikimaru, the minister accepts his fate and commits seppuku, but if you play as the female ninja Ayame, he doesn't take her seriously and you end up with an exclusive boss fight.

 

Rikimaru 3:37

 

Ayame 5:33

 

Elements like this are ace ^

I like this example because it shows how the player can get more value playing as a female character.

 

An extra boss battle makes up for any potential physical disadvantages of playing a girl.


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#98
Grieving Natashina

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HpvWY.gif

Wait, what? No, just no. Some dialogue differences sure, but stat/gameplay changes? BioWare has never done that and thank Odin that they won't. That was one of the reasons why I got into BG and NWN in the first place. Men should be allowed to play as weak/strong or social/asocial as they feel like and not have to feel forced to play a woman. It works both ways.

It's an interesting but pretty crappy idea. Nothing against the OP, but I think that's unnecessary. I'm not going to sit here and say that posters aren't allowed to offer a suggestion, but this one is futile to say the least.

Much has changed for BioWare in 18 years, but that's something that's stayed the same. As it should be.

Edit: I see that the conversation has shifted to male rape. This is what I get for not reading the whole thread. I need to get it into my thick skull that I shouldn't read the BSN until after the first cup of coffee.
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#99
Battlebloodmage

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HpvWY.gif

Wait, what? No, just no. Some dialogue differences sure, but stat/gameplay changes? BioWare has never done that and thank Odin that they won't. That was one of the reasons why I got into BG and NWN in the first place. Men should be allowed to play as weak/strong or social/asocial as they feel like and not have to feel forced to play a woman. It works both ways.

It's an interesting but pretty crappy idea. Nothing against the OP, but I think that's unnecessary to say the least. I'm not going to sit here and say that posters aren't allowed to offer a suggestion, but this one is futile to say the least.

Much has changed for BioWare in 18 years, but that's something that's stayed the same. As it should be.

Edit: I see that the conversation has shifted to male rape. This is what I get for not reading the whole thread. I need to get it into my thick skull that I shouldn't read the BSN until after the first cup of coffee.

Try Folgers


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#100
Grieving Natashina

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:lol:

I prefer Duken Donuts' French Vanilla flavor. It's awesome.