89 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Comedian]

Silly person. Complaining about guns in a SHOOTER.

I'm a huge Soldier lover actually, I confess I just wanted to read some amusing responses such as yours. Thank U so much 4 biting, silly person.

[Han Shot First]

But that's more psychological than the weapon itself.

Using firearms efficiently isn't just a matter of pointing and shooting unless the target is at point blank range. It requires training and skill, just like using a sword would have.

Assuming that you have no experience with firearms, which seems to be the case, if I handed you an M-16 with no prior preparation or training and had you fire 10 shots at a target 300 meters away you'd probably miss every one, and certainly would from 500 meters out.

Without knowing how to work out the battlesight zero for your weapon, what proper stock to cheek weld or sight alignment and sight picture are, how to make a windage call and make adjustments on your weapon for both wind and elevation, what shooting positions provide the best stability for your weapon, how to clear a jam or a double feed, ect....the only thing you could accomplish with that weapon is making a lot of noise.

if you didn't how to lead a target, much less make adjustments for windage, I could probably safely sprint in front of you at 150 meters out and you'd miss every shot fired at me.

Even prior civilian experience with firearms is no guarantee of skill, since a lot of civilians have bad marksmanship habits that need to be unlearned in the military. There is a reason why marksmanship training makes up a large part of military training, and it is arguably a much more complicated task than learning the basics of a sword or spear.

Tldr: The notion that old timey melee weapons were somehow more honorable (what does that even mean?) or required more skill is romantic nonsense.

[Seraphim24]

That's objectively false.

 

The most overpowered classes in MP are not biotic ones, and in SP guns with modded ammo are the most efficient way to kill enemies.

 

I don't know about MP was referring to SP

[Jedi Comedian]

Using firearms efficiently isn't just a matter of pointing and shooting unless the target is at point blank range. It requires training and skill, just like using a sword would have.

Assuming that you have no experience with firearms, which seems to be the case, if I handed you an M-16 with no prior preparation or training and had you fire 10 shots at a target 300 meters away you'd probably miss every one, and certainly would from 500 meters out.

Without knowing how to work out the battlesight zero for your weapon, what proper stock to cheek weld or sight alignment and sight picture are, how to make a windage call and make adjustments on your weapon for both wind and elevation, what shooting positions provide the best stability for your weapon, how to clear a jam or a double feed, ect....the only thing you could accomplish with that weapon is making a lot of noise.

if you didn't how to lead a target, much less make adjustments for windage, I could probably safely sprint in front of you at 150 meters out and you'd miss every shot fired at me.

Even prior civilian experience with firearms is no guarantee of skill, since a lot of civilians have bad marksmanship habits that need to be unlearned in the military. There is a reason why marksmanship training makes up a large part of military training, and it is arguably a much more complicated task than learning the basics of a sword or spear.

Tldr: The notion that old timey melee weapons were somehow more honorable (what does that even mean?) or required more skill is romantic nonsense.

Haven't read my last post, I take it?

[Element Zero]

There is a difference between need and being optimal which was always my problem with the original description of "well-specced". You have time when your powers are on cooldown and when your squadmates powers are on cooldown, and you are out of or saving grenades. If it is an enemy that will withstand a biotic explosion, or there are enemies outside the aoe, then it is optimal to fire your weapon.
 
I'm also not sure why you are ignoring multiplayer. It is part of the game and it emphasises efficiency to a greater degree than single player, which can actually encourage bad habits. Try doing a solo without shooting your weapon and compare the finishing time to when you use your weapon. It will be a staggering difference.

If I "properly" spec my Adept, I'm only ever waiting on that first cool down, more or less. I don't disagree with the essence of your statement; nor do I support the weaponless biotic nonsense. I just thought you overstated things a bit. I, like you, still fire my weapon, regardless of class. It is sometimes the optimal thing to do.

As to the SP/MP dichotomy, there's an easy answer for that. It seemed to me that your answer was more wholistic, as if including MP in your assessment; whereas the person you were addressing seemed to have a more simple, SP only view. I was making a judgment call on that. (I guessed right, at least on the part of your experience.) Also, most importantly, I don't have XBL, so I don't play MP myself. I couldn't meaningfully discuss it, in this fashion.

[Teabaggin Krogan]

I know what you're thinking... but I just HATE firearms. It's a dishonorable, inferior way of fighting IMO.

Oh the shame!!

 

Spoiler

 

You should probably commit sudoku!

[MyDamnAlterEgo]

Of course, when I say dishonorable and inferior I mean it is an unfair (with a gun you can take out ANYONE whereas a sword duel is a fight between pretty much EQUALS) and usable by any idiot with next to no experience, on the contrary ancient combat took years to master. Heck, OF COURSE IT'S EFFICIENT, it is a way of killing not a way of fighting, you just aim and shoot. I find it pretty boring, but I understand why most people like the powerful, easy stuff.

Well, that and I would also love to go all Magneto-like with my biotic powers in an encounter with gunmen and say "You H. Sapiens and your guns..."

 

Must disappoint you - true MASTERING of the gun (which would allow to take on people who are PROPERLY ARMED and ABLE TO SHOOT, having decent chances to not bite the bullet or some pellets within first 5 seconds) takes pretty much the same time, as mastering the sword or other melee weapon (IPSC guys and gals won't let me lie). Proper shooting is an art in it's own right as well.

[Han Shot First]

Haven't read my last post, I take it?

The one about rifles being able to be used effectively by anyone while swords take years to master?

Romanticized nonsense.

For starters the overwhelming majority of warriors throughout history have not been professional soldiers, but rather were farmers or herders turned part time warriors who maybe had some very rudimentary training with a sword or a spear or a pike, and might be called up for a single campaign season to fight for their chieftan. It is not until relatively recently in history that wars began to be fought near entirely by professional, well-trained armies.

Modern soldiers are far better trained than the nearly every army ever raised in Bronze Age, Iron Age, or the medieval period.

[Mdizzletr0n]

How recent are we talking because feudal Japan... *shrug*

[Jedi Comedian]

The one about rifles being able to be used effectively by anyone while swords take years to master?

No, the one in which I explain I was joking all along... I'm actually more of a weapons/guns dude.

[Laughing_Man]

How recent are we talking because feudal Japan... *shrug*

 

Depictions of Samurai or Knights are also filled with romanticized nonsense and claims for feats which are unlikely to say the least.

 

Many people think of movie / comic book / anime sword masters when they discuss the use of melee weapons.

 

The reality is that there is a very real skill ceiling due to the limitations of the human body, and even a master swordsman can easily be overwhelmed by a group of inferior opponents that attack him at once, so the fact that this sword master trained his entire life can mean very little on an actual battlefield filled with rage, insanity, confusion and arrows flying everywhere.

 

So yes, you can train your entire life to use the sword (just as you can train to become a marksman), but soon you will start to see diminishing returns for your training.

[Helios969]

Using firearms efficiently isn't just a matter of pointing and shooting unless the target is at point blank range. It requires training and skill, just like using a sword would have.

Assuming that you have no experience with firearms, which seems to be the case, if I handed you an M-16 with no prior preparation or training and had you fire 10 shots at a target 300 meters away you'd probably miss every one, and certainly would from 500 meters out.

That's a fact.  I'll go farther, most Army marksmen would miss at 500 meters if you're talking standard sights.  I doubt I could hit a 500 meter target with a full 30 round clip.  And I never shot less than 37/40 50 to 300 meters out...and most of those were closer in targets due poor breathing/mechanics and rushing a shot.  A person without proper training even with a properly zeroed M16 would likely miss all 10 shots at 300.

 

And I'm with you on the whole swords are honorable, guns are not.  I want to live...and I want my buddies to live, so all those sword and honor people can have their honorable funeral with their loved ones sobbing away while me and my fellow soldiers and our loved ones enjoy a Sunday afternoon barbecue with a few cold ones.

[Mdizzletr0n]

Depictions of Samurai or Knights are also filled with romanticized nonsense and claims for feats which are unlikely to say the least.
 
Many people think of movie / comic book / anime sword masters when they discuss the use of melee weapons.
 
The reality is that there is a very real skill ceiling due to the limitations of the human body, and even a master swordsman can easily be overwhelmed by a group of inferior opponents that attack him at once, so the fact that this sword master trained his entire life can mean very little on an actual battlefield filled with rage, insanity, confusion and arrows flying everywhere.
 
So yes, you can train your entire life to use the sword (just as you can train to become a marksman), but soon you will start to see diminishing returns for your training.

I agree that anime/comic depictions are going to be greatly exaggerated. My point was was that they were trained and organized soldiers from a pretty young age as opposed to just villagers that had to use what the had to defend themselves. The other point was that this sort of organization wasn't all that recent of a thing. It's been going on for a pretty good amount of time.

[CHRrOME]

So, people don't like the idea of a full melee class (I certainly don't) aka space ninja, but is ok with a "space mage" class? okay... 

 

I think it's rather nonsensical to go to battle without a gun, realistically wise. Adepts (or biotic users in general) have a lot of stress using their powers, I'm sure it gets really exhausting after a while. In ME universe I see the powers in general, tech and biotic as a support role. You still have to shoot with your guns, but you have the ability to cast tech/biotic powers to help out.

 

ME3 MP did quite alright, there're a few caster classes in which technically you don't need a gun. Still, it doesn't hurt to bring one to the battlefield.

[capn233]

So, people don't like the idea of a full melee class (I certainly don't) aka space ninja, but is ok with a "space mage" class? okay... 

 

I think it's rather nonsensical to go to battle without a gun, realistically wise. Adepts (or biotic users in general) have a lot of stress using their powers, I'm sure it gets really exhausting after a while. In ME universe I see the powers in general, tech and biotic as a support role. You still have to shoot with your guns, but you have the ability to cast tech/biotic powers to help out.

 

ME3 MP did quite alright, there're a few caster classes in which technically you don't need a gun. Still, it doesn't hurt to bring one to the battlefield.

 

Yes, and the last bit was really just because the balance was off.