105 réponses à ce sujet

[Draining Dragon]

Why don't we just lay down and die?

We're all going to die...

Die or go to jail.

It's the end of the world as we know it.

[The Dystopian Hound]

I have been a fan of Bioware since their 1st game and have played them all. They have been the industry leaders in Gaming and love all their work.
For the future a little advice from me and anyone else who agrees, Life has enough loss, trauma and death, and for this reason we could use more happy endings in this crazy chaotic world. Even though there are some super creative people writing at Bioware and i did pick-up on some very existential happy endings, but would still want something more concrete.

Just a thought...

Have a Wonderful Day

I love bioware. They do questionably things from time to time but they keep on delivering awesome content. They screw up on one the they work their butts off to make the next thing even better.

[ui876will]

Good endings are always the best.

I hate to see the main characters suffering or dying...

[AlanC9]

Well, in BG2, Irenicus pretty well trashes you every time you cross paths right up until the end.

I didn't find Irenicus too threatening at Spellhold. Much better balanced than the horrible first Malak fight, but he didn't look all that formidable. Though that's mostly the constraints of the ruleset; D&D just isn't organized around a wizard vs. party battle lasting more than a couple of rounds.

[AlanC9]

However,  if people create a character, and spend many many hours, even multiple games playing that character, making choices for them, they will feel a sense of ownership of that character (whether they actually own the character or not)  Forcing a tragic outcome on them despite what they may want to do (and remember, people generally want to succeed at a game) is a douche move.

This strikes me as being awfully limiting on games as a medium. Can this be restricted to, say, a particular subgenre?

[DuskWanderer]

I've got nothing wrong with a happy ending, as long as it's done correctly. 

 

I do wish BioWARE gave us more joy in their creations, though. Enjoying the experiences and the characters. I feel like they make so many jerks for the sake of MATUREZ that it turns the whole thing into a joke as unfunny as John Oliver. 

[Seraphim24]

Irenicus was a joke

[AlanC9]

I do wish BioWARE gave us more joy in their creations, though. Enjoying the experiences and the characters. I feel like they make so many jerks for the sake of MATUREZ that it turns the whole thing into a joke as unfunny as John Oliver.

Idle curiosity: what crowd does "as unfunny as John Oliver" play well to? I'm not sure I know a single person in meatspace who wouldn't give me a blank stare if I said that; either I'd be obviously wrong, or they wouldn't remember who he is.

[Seraphim24]

Idle curiosity: what crowd does "as unfunny as John Oliver" play well to? I'm not sure I know a single person in meatspace who wouldn't give me a blank stare if I said that; either I'd be obviously wrong, or they wouldn't remember who he is.

 

Idle curiosity, meatspace?

[Iakus]

This strikes me as being awfully limiting on games as a medium. Can this be restricted to, say, a particular subgenre?

Thus why I said "narrative based games that tout player choice"

 

If player choice is going to be limited to "what gun should I use?" then no, I don't expect to have any influence on the story.

[KaiserShep]

Idle curiosity: what crowd does "as unfunny as John Oliver" play well to? I'm not sure I know a single person in meatspace who wouldn't give me a blank stare if I said that; either I'd be obviously wrong, or they wouldn't remember who he is.

 

 

Bah, these silly contrarians, spouting their silliness into the ether. 

[Iakus]

I didn't find Irenicus too threatening at Spellhold. Much better balanced than the horrible first Malak fight, but he didn't look all that formidable. Though that's mostly the constraints of the ruleset; D&D just isn't organized around a wizard vs. party battle lasting more than a couple of rounds.

And unless you get the inmates to help you, he one-shots the party with a Wish spell.

 

So yeh, that wizard vs party battle doesn't last more than a couple rounds  

 

But even then, at most you mildly inconvenience him, because ultimately he gets what he came for.

[DesioPL]

 

En Taro Zeratul!

[Drone223]

By the ending, a Pyrrhic victory was already happening.  The exact level of it depending on an arbitrary number.  But forcing Shepard to go along with Glowjob's broken logic (and oh, yeah BURN in the process) was a whole new level of "Art"

No one is defending starkid, the whole point is that a happy ending would be out of place with the intended Phyrrhic victory tone.

[correctamundo]

@beerfish: Admit though that The Idiot is a hell of a trip even though the ending is rather tough on us readers.

[Il Divo]

Thus why I said "narrative based games that tout player choice"

 

If player choice is going to be limited to "what gun should I use?" then no, I don't expect to have any influence on the story.

 

I'd say that's still too limiting, since the type of player choice desired isn't a universal standard. Again, you can have dramatically diverging story-lines that don't have happy endings as the end goal (Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR, anyone)? Both games seem to have gone over pretty well with fans. 

[Lord Kiran]

I'd say that's still too limiting, since the type of player choice desired isn't a universal standard. Again, you can have dramatically diverging story-lines that don't have happy endings as the end goal (Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR, anyone)? Both games seem to have gone over pretty well with fans. 

Remember Peter Molyneaux?  Remember how he had a nasty habit of promising the moon and then falling horribly short each and every single time within the last 30 years? We shouldn't let Bioware slide anymore than Peter.

[Il Divo]

Remember Peter Molyneaux?  Remember how he had a nasty habit of promising the moon and then falling horribly short each and every single time within the last 30 years? We shouldn't let Bioware slide anymore than Peter.

 

Maybe not, but that's not really what I was referencing: I meant the idea of a developer having a player choice-based narrative which doesn't offer  happy endings, which Witcher 2 and Deus Ex: HR don't really do and (from what I've seen) are still held in high regard for their choice-based narratives. It's not what I'd call an impossible standard for BIoware to match. 

 

That's not really relevant to Peter Molyneaux offering much more than he can deliver with Fable. 

[jtav]

Endings should suit the story, and both comedy and tragedy produce great art. A bittersweet ending was entirely appropriate and the bitter part should come from something of meaning to the player, not a faceless mass. The problem with ME3's ending is that it contradicts the prior story.

[Patricia08]

I have been a fan of Bioware since their 1st game and have played them all. They have been the industry leaders in Gaming and love all their work.

For the future a little advice from me and anyone else who agrees, Life has enough loss, trauma and death, and for this reason we could use more happy endings in this crazy chaotic world. Even though there are some super creative people writing at Bioware and i did pick-up on some very existential happy endings, but would still want something more concrete.

 

Just a thought...

 

Have a Wonderful Day

 

Don't forget the losses the trauma's and so many deaths that i lost count in the game as well it's not just in real life that we experience those losses  . 

 

And uh you have a Wonderful Day as well.

[Lord Kiran]

Maybe not, but that's not really what I was referencing: I meant the idea of a developer having a player choice-based narrative which doesn't offer  happy endings, which Witcher 2 and Deus Ex: HR don't really do and (from what I've seen) are still held in high regard for their choice-based narratives. It's not what I'd call an impossible standard for BIoware to match. 

 

That's not really relevant to Peter Molyneaux offering much more than he can deliver with Fable. 

See I dispute the notion that ME was destined for a bitter-sweet victory. This is more of a problem of changes in the writing staff after ME1. ME1 was conservative, dignified and ultimately optimistic. ME2/3 went into grimdark and also failed to maintain a consistent tone throughout. I just get the impression that the people responsible for both were just winging it and went off the intended plan. Which may actually be the case.

[Il Divo]

See I dispute the notion that ME was destined for a bitter-sweet victory. This is more of a problem of changes in the writing staff after ME1. ME1 was conservative, dignified and ultimately optimistic. ME2/3 went into grimdark and also failed to maintain a consistent tone throughout. I just get the impression that the people responsible for both were just winging it and went off the intended plan. Which may actually be the case.

 

ME2 might have a number of writing problems, but I'm not sure I'd call it grim dark - in any capacity. Compared to Virmire as a scenario, it's about as optimistic as writing gets, particularly in scenarios where no one dies on the suicide mission which is easily doable. Even Shepard's death ends up being a deus ex machina for an overly optimistic outcome - his resurrection/return as a messiah figure. 

 

Still, my comment was more directed at the general claim that "narratives which emphasize player-choice should have the option for happy endings". ME3 is an example where I understand that desire - but that doesn't provide any justification for extending it as a general rule - it just means that ME3 messed up. But there are more than a few examples of RPG's which have avoided that restrictive approach to game design. 

[AlanC9]

And unless you get the inmates to help you, he one-shots the party with a Wish spell.
 

Never knew that. I have a tough time picking dumb options in RPGs; I can do them, but only if I set up the playthrough around them.

[Iakus]

I'd say that's still too limiting, since the type of player choice desired isn't a universal standard. Again, you can have dramatically diverging story-lines that don't have happy endings as the end goal (Witcher 2, Deus Ex: HR, anyone)? Both games seem to have gone over pretty well with fans. 

This depends on how you define a "happy ending"  

 

Some seem to think that it refers to a flawless victory, a Golden Ending where no real loss is suffered.  They derisively refer to it as a "unicorns and rainbows" ending.  But that's simply not true.  A happy ending can still be dotted with sadness and loss.  As I said before, I do like Earn Your Happy Ending.  Even MEHEM doesn't undo the losses accrued up until the docking of the Crucible.  

 

Edit:  And even in endings that aren't "meant to be happy" There is the possibility of headcanon:  DXHR  (until Makind Divided, at least) leaves it up to the player what happens next with Adam.  Even Planescape: Torment, a game designed around an immortal trying to figure out how to die, can have a hopeful note as the Nameless One goes off to join the Blood War.

[Iakus]

Never knew that. I have a tough time picking dumb options in RPGs; I can do them, but only if I set up the playthrough around them.

I hardly think deciding not to  trust a bunch of dangerously insane spellcasters (I mean, Tiax is one of them!)  to have your back as you face another dangerously insane spellcaster qualifies as "dumb"