125 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

Some specialized melee powers could be an interesting addition for the Soldier.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Some specialized melee powers could be an interesting addition for the Soldier.

 

I always felt that melee was kind of the Vanguard's shtick. And the Infiltrator's to a degree. Soldier is about heavy firepower- more Dakka, so to speak.

 

Whereas Adepts are about pure biotic power, Engineers are about diverse support options, while Sentinels are versatile and very tough to kill. Soldier should also be durable, but not as much as a Sentinel.

[straykat]

If i had to make a design decision, it'd be about the weapons. ME3 changed all of that. I didn't care much at the time, but it does suck if I think about it.

[capn233]

Well if ammo powers become consumables or weapon mod slot items, then you have to fill the "combat" slots somehow.  Some talents/powers are bound to overlap with Infiltrator and Vanguard anyway.

 

ME2 and ME3 soldier did get buffs (indirectly and directly) to their melee from Adrenaline Rush.  Since splitting out some of its roles seems like a decent idea, perhaps it might make sense to turn this into a power that buffs "physical abilities."  So movement speed, melee speed, damage reduction.  Time dilation and movement speed are essentially the same buff from different reference frames of course.

 

Marksman like power could cover weapon buffs.

 

Of course this leaves 4 more powers if you go with the same number as ME3, not counting the passives and bonus.  Don't know how far powers should be divided up.  In ME1 each talent usually did one thing and there weren't really branching evolutions that altered them.

 

The difficulty is when you start going down lines of thought like "well how about we give Soldier something that breaks shields," or "how about a power that ragdolls multiple targets."  Then it starts to sound like it could be stepping on the toes of Engineers or Adepts.

[straykat]

Well if ammo powers become consumables or weapon mod slot items, then you have to fill the "combat" slots somehow.  Some talents/powers are bound to overlap with Infiltrator and Vanguard anyway.

 

ME2 and ME3 soldier did get buffs (indirectly and directly) to their melee from Adrenaline Rush.  Since splitting out some of its roles seems like a decent idea, perhaps it might make sense to turn this into something that buffs "physical abilities."  So movement speed, melee speed, damage reduction.  Time dilation and movement speed are essentially the same buff from different reference frames of course.

 

Marksman like power could cover weapon buffs.

 

Of course this leaves 4 more powers if you go with the same number as ME3, not counting the passives and bonus.  Don't know how far powers should be divided up.  In ME1 each talent usually did one thing and there weren't really branching evolutions that altered them.

 

I like ME2 the most.. Adrenaline rush was a good addition (even if they trimmed the skills... it's not like I cared much), but they were still the best weapon class. Weapons are what define a soldier. And they still should.

[Pasquale1234]

I always felt that melee was kind of the Vanguard's shtick.

They can certainly engage in close quarters combat, but it's mostly fueled by biotics.
 

And the Infiltrator's to a degree.

CQC enhanced by stealth - the element of surprise.

Notice that both classes (Vanguard and Infiltrator) are Combat hybrids. The Soldier is pure Combat.
 

Soldier is about heavy firepower- more Dakka, so to speak.

That doesn't do much to set them apart, especially when every other class can use the same weapons.
 

Whereas Adepts are about pure biotic power, Engineers are about diverse support options, while Sentinels are versatile and very tough to kill. Soldier should also be durable, but not as much as a Sentinel.

I have a bit different interpretation, based primarily on ME1 mechanics. Sentinels were limited to light armor, Soldiers being the only class eligible for heavy. Also, ME1 Soldiers had health regen and immunity, which made them more krogan-like, and virtual tanks. Thus, the suggestion that they might have some special heavy melee powers.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Now this is what you call a cool Soldier.

 

 

I've got you in my sights.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The thing is, Soldier is already the most played class by a significant margin. I'm really not sure that making (say) half of the game's guns exclusive to them would actually achieve. If any class really needs some love, it's the caster classes which are the least played. And making so they are stuck with light armor and/or dingy little pistols and SMGs wouldn't help their case at all.

 

As I said, I think the Soldier's superior firepower is best represented with abilities like Adrenaline Rush, the best weapon/ammo/accuracy buffs, and extra abilities like rocket launchers and flamers, rather than deciding that highly trained N7 operatives suddenly can't use rifles unless they are Soldiers.

 

I could see heavy weapons returning as Soldier-exclusive toys, sure. But all the basic weapon types (rifle, sniper, shotgun, pistol, SMG) should be available to all classes. If I want to be an Adept with a rifle or an Infiltrator with a shotgun, I should be able to. The weight system is there to balance it all and stop Adepts from carrying a Claymore and still fire off Biotics like there's no tomorrow, so Soldiers are still the best with a gun.

 

@Pasquale: I base myself on ME2's (and onwards) class design because I think it was much stronger. ME1's sentinel was a jack of most trades and master of none. That's boring. A master of defense that can throw both Biotics and Tech powers for wicked combos seems much more interesting. Soldiers being the most tanky and having the most weapon damage means that Sentinels have nowhere they excel, and every class should have a niche in which they are just better than others. Otherwise, as I see it what's the point of classes at all.

[straykat]

The thing is, Soldier is already the most played class by a significant margin. I'm really not sure that making (say) half of the game's guns exclusive to them would actually achieve. If any class really needs some love, it's the caster classes which are the least played. And making so they are stuck with light armor and/or dingy little pistols and SMGs wouldn't help their case at all.

 

As I said, I think the Soldier's superior firepower is best represented with abilities like Adrenaline Rush, the best weapon/ammo/accuracy buffs, and extra abilities like rocket launchers and flamers, rather than deciding that highly trained N7 operatives suddenly can't use rifles unless they are Soldiers.

 

I could see heavy weapons returning as Soldier-exclusive toys, sure. But all the basic weapon types (rifle, sniper, shotgun, pistol, SMG) should be available to all classes. If I want to be an Adept with a rifle or an Infiltrator with a shotgun, I should be able to. The weight system is there to balance it all and stop Adepts from carrying a Claymore and still fire off Biotics like there's no tomorrow, so Soldiers are still the best with a gun.

 

@Pasquale: I base myself on ME2's (and onwards) class design because I think it was much stronger. ME1's sentinel was a jack of most trades and master of none. That's boring. A master of defense that can throw both Biotics and Tech powers for wicked combos seems much more interesting. Soldiers being the most tanky and having the most weapon damage means that Sentinels have nowhere they excel, and every class should have a niche in which they are just better than others. Otherwise, as I see it what's the point of classes at all.

 

I think the games in general need a lot more environmental damage... and that alone would improve biotics. Especially if they got to hurl large objects or their shockwave plows through anything in front of it. But they don't need better guns. Every class should be distinct, if you have classes at all. Else just give up on the idea and make one class.

[capn233]

The thing is, Soldier is already the most played class by a significant margin. I'm really not sure that making (say) half of the game's guns exclusive to them would actually achieve. If any class really needs some love, it's the caster classes which are the least played. And making so they are stuck with light armor and/or dingy little pistols and SMGs wouldn't help their case at all.

 

Don't think anybody is calling for half of the guns to be restricted to Soldier.  Even in the "oppressive" ME2 system, the only weapon that was actually exclusive to Soldier was the Revenant.  And Soldier didn't ever gain access to SMGs.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Don't think anybody is calling for half of the guns to be restricted to Soldier.  Even in the "oppressive" ME2 system, the only weapon that was actually exclusive to Soldier was the Revenant.  And Soldier didn't ever gain access to SMGs.

 

That was only until the Collector Ship, however. I'd much prefer all weapons being equippable by any class anytime. Solider can get exclusive heavy weapons to add that special flair.

 

And ME1 is actually the most restrictive system IMO. Oh, sure, you could equip a rifle as an Engineer. Good luck hitting the broad side of a Reaper with it however.

[Pasquale1234]

The thing is, Soldier is already the most played class by a significant margin.

Soldier was the default class, so that's really no surprise. Most people play a game only once (if they even finish it), and probably don't try any of the other classes.
 

@Pasquale: I base myself on ME2's (and onwards) class design because I think it was much stronger. ME1's sentinel was a jack of most trades and master of none. That's boring. A master of defense that can throw both Biotics and Tech powers for wicked combos seems much more interesting. Soldiers being the most tanky and having the most weapon damage means that Sentinels have nowhere they excel, and every class should have a niche in which they are just better than others. Otherwise, as I see it what's the point of classes at all.

ME2&3 class design may have been better for other classes, but I feel the Soldier lost out. AR is the only unique power afforded the Soldier - and I don't use it, because I don't like the time dilation effect. Ammo powers? Not unique to Soldiers, and could be mods instead. ME2 Soldiers had the advantage of being able to use more weapon types, but that was lost in ME3.

The beauty of the jack-of-all trades Sentinel is having both tech and biotic powers. You can take a tech squaddie and a biotic squaddie and the Sentinel can trigger either type of 'splosion. That's a team that has all bases covered.

When you look at the composition of the classes - biotics, combat, tech, and hybrids of each - it doesn't make any sense to me that both combat hybrids have special skills that enhance them in CQC but the pure combat class does not.

Sorry, but I don't think being a weapons platform is enough to make the Soldier interesting, especially since every other class can make plenty of pew-pew.

[capn233]

That was only until the Collector Ship, however. I'd much prefer all weapons being equippable by any class anytime. Solider can get exclusive heavy weapons to add that special flair.

 

And ME1 is actually the most restrictive system IMO. Oh, sure, you could equip a rifle as an Engineer. Good luck hitting the broad side of a Reaper with it however.

 

Personally, I would rather the heavy weapons not make a return unless you simply class light machineguns, anti-material (sic), and bigass shotguns as heavy weapons.

 

But with respect to equipping any weapon, here is my question:  How do you keep the non-combat classes from being overpowered if they have the powers with the most damage and utility, but also have access to all the best weapons?  Or are weapons gimped from the start and have to be buffed by powers on the combat classes to be decent?  ME3 was a mix of the two, although it started more at the latter end of the spectrum and moved to the former with a million weapon buffs.

 

Oh and I actually agree with you about ME1 being more restrictive as far as weapons go, but it seemed like ME2 always got the heat for that issue.

[The Dystopian Hound]

Some specialized melee powers could be an interesting addition for the Soldier.

They could be interesting to for all classes.

[The Dystopian Hound]

Now this is what you call a cool Soldier.



I've got you in my sights.

He looks like an 10 year old's action figure.

[AlanC9]

Oh and I actually agree with you about ME1 being more restrictive as far as weapons go, but it seemed like ME2 always got the heat for that issue.

If I had to guess, that'd be caused by people filing ME1 in the "RPG" box and ME2 in the "shooter" box.

[Han Shot First]

He looks like an 10 year old's action figure.

That was my thought as well. He looks like one of the G.I. Joe action figures I had as a kid.

Please, no.

[Fixers0]

Realisticaly speaking, any one in the miltary should be able to use a basic assault rifle, not so sure about sniper rifles. Though, personally I think it's actually  a good idea to re-introduce weapon profiecency to the point were the soldier is just slightly more apt at using each weapon than the other classes, or he reloads faster, or can mod weapons easier, or whatever.

[10K]

I still think basic weapons should be used by all classes, while specialized weapons such as the revenant, the widow, the Claymore, etc... should be only used by classes that are spacifically trained in specific combat. I think classes should be played the way they are described. Seriously like what is the point of playing vanguard when you can be an infiltrator whom can cloak and be better at close range combat than Vanguard? Like I said before, restrictions pushed players to play the class as it was meant to be played.

What is the purpose of classes if one can play like the other? At that point there's no distinction. So I'd say just restrict the specialized weapons so there can be something that shows that Vanguards trained in close ranged combat by letting them, and soldier, be the only classes with access to Claymore. Same goes for infiltrator with widow and soldier with revenant and all other specialized weapons.

For classes that are not weapon orientated; engineer, sentinal, and adept should get power damage and recharge buffs and still have access to all basic weapons. Or just get rid of classes altogether, because they have no distinction in ME3 they all just got different powers, but fight exactly the same.

Edit: They could also make abilities; for example cloak only grant bonuses towards sniper rifles.

[Han Shot First]

Realisticaly speaking, any one in the miltary should be able to use a basic assault rifle, not so sure about sniper rifles. Though, personally I think it's actually a good idea to re-introduce weapon profiecency to the point were the soldier is just slightly more apt at using each weapon than the other classes, or he reloads faster, or can mod weapons easier, or whatever.

It isn't typical for people who haven't gone through some sort of scout sniper school or indoc to train with sniper rifles, but there would be no reason realistically why any soldier or marine who wasn't trained on the weapon, couldn't use it somewhat effectively. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship would be the same for both assault rifles and sniper rifles. Snipers would be better of course generally speaking, both due to experience and screening requirements that only accept people with the highest grade of rifle qualification scores, but any basically trained marksman could use the weapon.

Engagements in the ME universe also seem to always occur at very close range. Very rarely are enemies more than the equivalent of 200 meters away, and the majority seem less than 100. You don't have to be a crack marksman at those ranges. For comparison every US Marine has to qualify up to 500 meters at the rifle range annually. The US Army trains up to 300 meters I believe, which is still about 2 or 3 times the max distance of the range at which contact is made in the ME games. I'm using the US military as an example, but nearly all first world nations have similar marksmanship programs & standards. You don't really get engagements in the ME games, or most shooters for that matter, that occur at ranges beyond the capabilities of the average soldier or Marine in the real world.

On that note I think all classes should be able to use the sniper rifles, with the sniper class (infiltrator?) either getting a buff to max range, if there are now levels where contact occurs at greater distances, or a buff to damage if there aren't.

[Ahriman]

They should feel more unique, now that the other classes can use every weapon as well.

They should be totally playable without player knowing that there are some things called "skills" and "abilities" in game. That's all what "I'll just press Default" pick needs to be. N7 Destroyer fits this role better than Soldier though, since he feels bigger than just assault riffle holding device.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Personally, I would rather the heavy weapons not make a return unless you simply class light machineguns, anti-material (sic), and bigass shotguns as heavy weapons.

 

But with respect to equipping any weapon, here is my question:  How do you keep the non-combat classes from being overpowered if they have the powers with the most damage and utility, but also have access to all the best weapons?  Or are weapons gimped from the start and have to be buffed by powers on the combat classes to be decent?  ME3 was a mix of the two, although it started more at the latter end of the spectrum and moved to the former with a million weapon buffs.

 

Oh and I actually agree with you about ME1 being more restrictive as far as weapons go, but it seemed like ME2 always got the heat for that issue.

 

Weight mechanism takes care of that, as well as other classes's inferior weapon damage/accuracy/ammo boosts. I'm pretty sure the Soldier also has the most carrying capacity, and thus can carry the most guns without being too overburdened; hell, if you don't care about power cooldowns, you can make a Soldier into a walking armory if you want, whereas you'd gimp yourself doing that in an Adept.

 

I mean, sure, an Adept can carry a Revenant around if they want. They're not going to trigger many Biotic comboes if they do, so it might not actually be a great choice. But they should be able to. restriction in the name of balance is a pretty shaky argument in a single-player game is you ask me, and it's not like Mass Effect was ever hard anyway.

[capn233]

Weight mechanism takes care of that, as well as other classes's inferior weapon damage/accuracy/ammo boosts. I'm pretty sure the Soldier also has the most carrying capacity, and thus can carry the most guns without being too overburdened; hell, if you don't care about power cooldowns, you can make a Soldier into a walking armory if you want, whereas you'd gimp yourself doing that in an Adept.

 

The weight mechanic didn't actually accomplish this for a variety of reasons.  And the example of a Soldier and Adept in ME3 will actually illustrate why.

 

Shepard always has a starting encumbrance of 75 regardless of class.  Technically Soldier can get the most weight capacity bonus, but half of that is at Rank 6 where he has to give up Weapon Master, his only decent evolution in passive.  If you take Weapon Master you have the same listed weight capacity bonus as an Adept (50) with typical evolutions in Biotic Mastery.

 

The difference is that Adept gets to cheat.  The first way is with Combo Mastery at Rank 6 of Biotic Mastery, which is equivalent to a weight capacity buff of 40 lasting 30 seconds after detonating a combo.  And if you don't think that is enough cheating, then you could have taken Recharge Combo at Rank 5 of Throw to completely reset cooldown each time a combo detonates.  Meanwhile Soldier's trademark power has a base 10 second cooldown that cannot start until the duration is finished, which is a minimum of 5.2 seconds if it is maxed.  Soldier can only partly cheat cooldowns with the "power use" evolution, which only allows certain powers to be used and for vanilla soldier is only mediocre Concussive Shot.

 

So which class is actually better to load up with high weapon encumbrance?  It isn't Soldier.

 

This is before you get to the question of whether or not more than one weapon grants you any sort of advantage in single player or multiplayer.  Largely it does not since weapon specialization against protections (and protections themselves) went the way of the dodo, and ammo is shared and also abundant.

 

Maybe some idealized version of weapon encumbrance / PRS would actually work, but you would need to get rid of all the loopholes for the alleged power classes as well as limit highest weapon damage to the heaviest weapons such that a caster running a Claymore would largely be extremely inefficient.  And you know that what will happen then: "Why can't my Adept use heavy guns and powers at the same time, it isn't fair!"

[The Hierophant]

Just add the abilities to blindfire from cover, and to dual wield all guns.

[Cyonan]

Now this is what you call a cool Soldier.

 

I've got you in my sights.

 

That's just an old man who requires aim bots.

 

Give me Pharah so that I can rain justice from above.

 

If I had to guess, that'd be caused by people filing ME1 in the "RPG" box and ME2 in the "shooter" box.

 

I think it's more cause ME2 actually flat out refused to let you equip the item while ME1 let you equip it even if you were so hilariously inaccurate with it you couldn't hit the Citadel if you were standing on the Presidium.