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Cassandra's Age & Her Romance.


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#151
Sah291

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That is the average gamer age in the United States, not the world. Also, American gamers tend to be overweight and depressed. So does that mean we should have an obese and depressed woman as a love interest in the next game ? I doubt it.

If that's what was actually popular among the demographics buying their games, then probably. It isn't though.

Should they not make content that appeals to their target audience?

Game developers aim to do that. I remember a time when there was virtually no attempt to appeal to female audiences at all, and either no or only one romance option, with less content, than for the male player. Most female protagonists, if they existed at all, were still designed to appeal to men. I lived through it somehow without being offended. I knew most gamers were male at the time. Same for films and other media. The list goes on. That didn't stop me from watching and enjoying media.

Cassandra was popular and requested by the fanbase. That's a logical reason.

If this is about the short hair, scars, etc. All the characters got the tough and grizzled look, including the PC, not just those meant to be LI for male players. I don't really like it either (reminds me too much of a military shooter game and not a high fantasy), but I don't feel like they were singling out one gender or anything. It's the art style they went with.
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#152
Almostfaceman

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Who am I to decide that ? How about a player with an opinion ?

 

 

*snip for pithy's sake*

 

If you don't want people commenting on your personal life decisions, why are you airing them on a public message board? This isn't the place for it anyway. 


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#153
Sah291

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Besides, isn't that whole half shaved hair style meant to appeal to the younger 20 something demographic? It shows up a lot in other media targeted at young millennials (Hunger Games, etc), so I assumed it was.

Things like that go in and out of style. Like gender neutral clothing. It was popular in the 80s. Then it went out. Now it appears to be back. Taylor Swift brought back high waist pants (ugh). If you start to notice your female friends wearing unattractive mom jeans, you can probably thank her. ;)

#154
Beren Von Ostwick

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I think I've found the perfect companion for DA4 that should totally make Hipstershot happy.  Never gets old and will never leave him.

 

And yes, it's country music again having all the answers.

 


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#155
BioWareMod02

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Hello everyone. Let's keep it civil and on topic in here. Thank you.



#156
thesuperdarkone2

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Hello everyone. Let's keep it civil and on topic in here. Thank you.


Ah first n7valentine is allowed to ruin threads with his sjw BS now bayonet can say nonsense yet still the mods do nothing. And people wonder why this forum is considered toxic.

Guess people forget how bayonet also said all Muslims are evil. His attitude shouldn't be a surprise considering that.

#157
AlanC9

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That is the average gamer age in the United States, not the world. Also, American gamers tend to be overweight and depressed. So does that mean we should have an obese and depressed woman as a love interest in the next game ? I doubt it.


Do you have figures for other countries? If not, what's your point?

And if you're saying that player demographics shouldn't govern the LIs, then what's the problem with Cassandra?

#158
PapaCharlie9

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Also, American gamers tend to be overweight and depressed.
 
http://www.nbcnews.c...d_science-games


Which headlines:

Study: Average gamer is 35, fat and bummed

and contains this quote:
 

Investigators from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Emory University and Andrews University analyzed survey data from 552 adults in the Seattle-Tacoma area.


I had been planning to make two great jokes about this, but this thread has gotten so toxic that now the mod has stepped in, so the whole effect is ruined. Talk about being bummed!

For those who could use a laff at this point:
Spoiler

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#159
Monica21

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Hello everyone. Let's keep it civil and on topic in here. Thank you.


Great job moderating. Really good. Excellent.
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#160
Bayonet Hipshot

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Ah first n7valentine is allowed to ruin threads with his sjw BS now bayonet can say nonsense yet still the mods do nothing. And people wonder why this forum is considered toxic.

Guess people forget how bayonet also said all Muslims are evil. His attitude shouldn't be a surprise considering that.

 

Ah, how refreshing to have a personal fanboy who keeps track of what I say.

 

If there exists a cruel, unethical and oppressive ideology, what would you label its adherents ? Cute ? Lovely ? No, you would either label them as bad or naive or both.

 

Also, aren't you one of those hardcore pro-mage folks who think that the Templars and the Chantry are evil ? Why are you so Templarphobic and Chantrophobic ? Not all of them are like that. :rolleyes:  Check you mage privilege, yo.

 

If you don't want people commenting on your personal life decisions, why are you airing them on a public message board? This isn't the place for it anyway. 

 

Someone asked me a personal question a few pages about real life romance and marriage. I replied to them. Also, when did I mentioned I wanted people to stop commenting. I am not like you folks who censor or block people. If have got something to say, no matter how delusional it is, such as real life romance and weddings are all sunshine and rainbows, then say it.
 

Which headlines:

Study: Average gamer is 35, fat and bummed

and contains this quote:
 

Investigators from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Emory University and Andrews University analyzed survey data from 552 adults in the Seattle-Tacoma area.


I had been planning to make two great jokes about this, but this thread has gotten so toxic that now the mod has stepped in, so the whole effect is ruined. Talk about being bummed!

For those who could use a laff at this point:
Spoiler

 

 

Quite frankly I don't know how you can conduct a study consisting of only 552 adults in a single county and then determine that the average  age of American gamers is 35 years old.

 

But hey, somehow these statistics are okay and can be used to justify making an aunt-esque woman as the primary romance in favor of the younger better counter part. However, other statistics are "pseudo-intellectual garbage"

 

:rolleyes:



#161
Sah291

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Do you have figures for other countries?


The Canadian average age is 33, so still fairly close to the US average. I believe the figure is similar for the UK and Australia as well.

Anyway, my point in bringing it up wasn't to say that younger audiences shouldn't continue to be catered to, they should, and I'm sorry they didn't have a younger female character in the mix, or that not all characters got equal romance content. I would have liked more for some of the other characters too.

But a lead character Cassandra's age isn't strange, and may very well be due to changing gamer demographics, that skew older 30+, especially in this genre, and with Bioware fans who have been following the company for a number of years now.

#162
veeia

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I think it's strange to use any statistics about gamers/men/etc as a primary justification for the inclusion of certain character types. If you want a quality narrative, you can't twist it to your demographics and force the creators to write things they don't want to write. Cassandra is who she is and her content is the way it is because they wanted to do it. Bioware's commitment to diversity, for example, makes sense because of the diversity of people who enjoy them or could be drawn in by the promise of it, but the commitment on behalf of the company to doing it is clearly something they enjoy and see value in beyond statistics.

 

It seems to me that this switch to having older characters could be justified in a business sense by the average age of gamers, but it also opens a world of narrative possibilities when your characters have potentially more history, experiences, knowledge, etc to draw on. That's not to say that younger characters have less narrative value, just that they offer different possibilities. Both Blackwall and Cassandra's arcs work so well because of their ages, and they're both interesting stories worthy of telling with a romance option.


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#163
roselavellan

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2) The average person in Seattle-Tacoma is 35, fat and bummed. :) (Sorry Seattleites, but it had to be said).

 

Actually, less so than many other areas in the US, apparently: http://stateofobesit.../adult-obesity/



#164
thesuperdarkone2

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Funny how bayonet completely ignores how Solas and Blackwall are in their 40s

#165
Monica21

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Funny how bayonet completely ignores how Solas and Blackwall are in their 40s


Apparently Solas doesn't matter because he's magic or whatever. And I could talk about the decline in male virility at the age of 40, but a ) I think it's gauche and b ) this entire discussion is stupid.

Cassandra is sexy and beautiful, and could kick Bayonet's ass from one end of Skyhold to the other. But he likes weak, generically pretty girls, so there's not much of a discussion to have.
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#166
Bayonet Hipshot

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Funny how bayonet completely ignores how Solas and Blackwall are in their 40s

 

Solas is an Elf with access to magics like Uthenara. Even without Uthenara or other forms of magics, Elves do not age like Humans. For example, Fiona is supposed to be in quite old, possibly in her 50s or 60s now but she looks like a woman in her late 20s. Ameridan is an 800+ year old Elf who only had white hair and some minor forehead wrinkles to even indicate that he is old. Solas is centuries old but because he is from a time before the Veil and had access to Uthenara, he looks like a 40 year old man. Abelas is centuries old yet because of his Elven biology and Uthenara, he looks young.

 

Point is, Elves =/= Human, especially when it comes to matters of aging and beauty. It is commonly established in many works of fantasy that Elves are more beautiful than Humans and either live far longer than Humans or age far more gracefully than Humans do. The only exception to this that I can think of right now is Harry Potter but I am sure there are others.

 

As for Blacknier / Rainwall, I made the thread focusing about the straight male love interest. If you want to make a thread about the straight female love interest, then by all means, be my guest.



#167
Serza

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Ah first n7valentine is allowed to ruin threads with his sjw BS now bayonet can say nonsense yet still the mods do nothing. And people wonder why this forum is considered toxic.

Guess people forget how bayonet also said all Muslims are evil. His attitude shouldn't be a surprise considering that.

Great job moderating. Really good. Excellent.

 

WOAH. WOULD THE BOTH OF YOU CHILL OUT? Not even I'm this *****y at the Mods, and I never go far for a profanity in the first place!

 

SO LEMME TELL YA: *****ing about them on the forums does nothing. Do something active about it instead of just saying "WOAH HEY YOU GUYS SUCK".

 

Report the posts you don't like. Back it up with exerpts from the Forum rules. Get them stone evidence, so the only job they have to do is say "Whoa! This person has a good point!" and wave the banhammer around.

 

 

Or, you can try to prove the people making those posts that their opinion is wrong, by remaining civil, and using concrete arguments. That's not always going to succeed, and frankly, there ARE people trying to stir up the pot for their own amusement, but those folks are what the first option is for!


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#168
veeia

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Bayonet though, do you believe that what you see as the "added value" of having a romance option that fits your ...idk, what kind of standards they are, biological? Aesthetic? Anyway, do you think that what you are proposing has more value to the game than the devs pursuing a story that they are invested in? If so, I would suggest that character driven RPGs like Inquisition are not designed to give you what you are looking for. While there is an emphasis on character creation and player created stories, it is heavily balanced out by the need to tell a compelling narrative that frames it and gives it weight. That drive is what fuels the addition of things like Cassandra's romance. You can't ask someone to create a story and then demand it fits your terms. Furthermore, given that the story actually does fit your terms by offering you an arc you enjoy, it seems petty to demand that other arcs be different. As said before, if your complaint was about the lack of content for Josie, it would more more reasonable. The way you're framing it now is just entitled.

 

Blackwall is brought up because it's further evidence that the older characters are intentional, not an oversight. All players have the option of romancing someone older (Blackwall, Solas, Cass, IB) or someone younger (Josie, Sera, Dorian, Cullen). This allows for a range of romances and stories. If you don't like having that kind of range, that's okay, but it's not your decision to make and your specific priorities don't get to dictate how they make their game.


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#169
Monica21

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WOAH. WOULD THE BOTH OF YOU CHILL OUT?


I think this is an appropriate time for the Pot/Kettle analogy.

SO LEMME TELL YA: *****ing about them on the forums does nothing. Do something active about it instead of just saying "WOAH HEY YOU GUYS SUCK".


How would you know what I have or have not said to a moderator?
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#170
Serza

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Ah, fine. Have it your way.



#171
Bayonet Hipshot

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Bayonet though, do you believe that what you see as the "added value" of having a romance option that fits your ...idk, what kind of standards they are, biological? Aesthetic? Anyway, do you think that what you are proposing has more value to the game than the devs pursuing a story that they are invested in? If so, I would suggest that character driven RPGs like Inquisition are not designed to give you what you are looking for. While there is an emphasis on character creation and player created stories, it is heavily balanced out by the need to tell a compelling narrative that frames it and gives it weight. That drive is what fuels the addition of things like Cassandra's romance. You can't ask someone to create a story and then demand it fits your terms. Furthermore, given that the story actually does fit your terms by offering you an arc you enjoy, it seems petty to demand that other arcs be different. As said before, if your complaint was about the lack of content for Josie, it would more more reasonable. The way you're framing it now is just entitled.

 

Blackwall is brought up because it's further evidence that the older characters are intentional, not an oversight. All players have the option of romancing someone older (Blackwall, Solas, Cass, IB) or someone younger (Josie, Sera, Dorian, Cullen). This allows for a range of romances and stories. If you don't like having that kind of range, that's okay, but it's not your decision to make and your specific priorities don't get to dictate how they make their game.

 

From my point of view, Josephine Montilyet is the better woman. Age is but one reason but I will try to list all of them.

 

Religion

 

Cassandra is a devout Andrastian. She tries to be preachy with you. For example, early game, she talks about adding one more God to your roster of Gods. I find it hypocritical that Cassandra doesn't try to incorporate other Gods but pushes for others to accept hers.

 

By contrast Josephine is a moderate/liberal Andrastian. The protagonist's faith or lack of it or indifference to it does not matter to her.

 

Beliefs

 

Cassandra can disapprove of your stances, actions and beliefs, doubly so if you toggle certain option in the menu, courtesy of Trespasser DLC.

 

Josephine is pretty chill with what you do. She does offer commentary on them such as when you recruit the Mages or Templars as allies or conscripts but her demeanor towards you do not change.

 

Culture

 

Cassandra gives next to zero **** about the culture of the non-Human protagonist. She doesn't care about any problems he might face.

 

Josephine's first introduction to the protagonist involves her giving specific responses, depending on your racial background. Later when you converse with her, she asks you if you have been facing any discrimination as well as more details about your past.

 

Romance Arc

 

Cassandra's romance arc is one where the protagonist gives everything and receives next to nothing. You pursue her, you declare you will woo her, you buy things for her and then later in Trespasser, you try to propose to her. In return, she, well, doesn't really give you anything.

 

Josephine's romance arc is far more balanced. If you did not bring your love interest to Halamshiral, Josephine is the one that comes to talk to you at the balcony scene. She also takes you out on a date to the theater, which can be a very thrilling and new experience to a Dalish Elf or a Carta Dwarf or a Tal-Vashoth mercenary. She lets you win the Wicked Grace match. When its all over post-Trespasser, her familiar home is open to you. In return, you pursue here, give her gifts and duel for her. There is giving and taking from both sides.

 

A relationship of any form, especially the romantic kind, is a two way street, not a one way street. If its a one way street, its nothing more than blind worship or if you want me to put it bluntly, **** begging.

 

Conclusion

 

On the one hand, you have a woman, Cassandra,  who is around the age of an auntie, who is from a family with questionable proclivities, who is judgemental, who is devoutly religious and tries forces her God onto you, who gives next to no care about any possible discrimination or problems you might face, who makes you do everything in the courtship process while giving next to nothing in return.

 

On the other hand, you have a woman, Josephine, in her mid to late 20s, who is from a good family, who is pretty chill, who is religiously liberal or religiously moderate, who cares about the problems you might face and who reciprocates during the courtship ritual

 

My question is:- Why is Cassandra the primary love interest option who was given more content ? IMO, she doesn't deserve it.

 

If what many of you say is true, that Bioware needs to cater to the majority of gamers, then why did they not make the woman who is more chill, more moderate, more reciprocal, more open the primary love interest option with more content ? 

 

Now some of you might say that Bioware is doing this because of request from the fanbase. Well, if that is the case, then why the Inquisitor was not able to romance Varric ? If I recall correctly, there were numerous requests for Bioware to make Varric romanceable. Yet Bioware did not do it. So why the double standard ? Why no Varric but yes to Cassandra ? So that argument holds no water.

 

My Personal Real Life Stances

 

My real life stances are due to the evidence that I have that is available to me.

 

I am not the kind guy who looks around at all the other men who got cleaned out by divorce, who had their lives ruined by things like alimony and child support, looks at the statistics and naively think to myself:- "You know what, those things won't happen to me. Somehow, magically, I will make it work. Somehow, by the power of faith, I will make all this romance, marriage and kids thing work"

 

Faith is a belief based on an absence of data. It invites disaster. Data tells me that romance, marriage and kids are risky as ** with very little benefits. Therefore, I am not interested in it and that does not make me a misogynist, it makes me a cautious realist. Besides, I do not recall telling anyone else not to get romantically involved, get married and have kids.

 

"But your parents made it work." Yeah, they did but they were people born in the 1960s living in Southeast Asia. It is, to use SJW lingo, current year. 2016 =/= 1960s. Different times, different circumstances, different environment, different data sets, different people.

 

I mean, I don't smoke weed or pot. I don't drink alcohol. I don't do drugs. I know many others do it but I don't. Why ? Because I come from a family with crappy genes health wise (both grandparents had alcohol addiction, many of my aunts & uncles suffer from diabetes, stroke, high blood pressure, etc). So am I an alcoholophobe ? Or a drugophobe ? Or a drugophobe ? Or a cautious realist who understands that things such as alcoholic addiction can be inherited ? I haven't told anyone else to not partake in these things either.

 

Cheers.



#172
thesuperdarkone2

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From my point of view, Josephine Montilyet is the better woman. Age is but one reason but I will try to list all of them.

Religion

Cassandra is a devout Andrastian. She tries to be preachy with you. For example, early game, she talks about adding one more God to your roster of Gods. I find it hypocritical that Cassandra doesn't try to incorporate other Gods but pushes for others to accept hers.

By contrast Josephine is a moderate/liberal Andrastian. The protagonist's faith or lack of it or indifference to it does not matter to her.

Beliefs

Cassandra can disapprove of your stances, actions and beliefs, doubly so if you toggle certain option in the menu, courtesy of Trespasser DLC.

Josephine is pretty chill with what you do. She does offer commentary on them such as when you recruit the Mages or Templars as allies or conscripts but her demeanor towards you do not change.

Culture

Cassandra gives next to zero f*cks about the culture of the non-Human protagonist. She doesn't care about any problems he might face.

Josephine's first introduction to the protagonist involves her giving specific responses, depending on your racial background. Later when you converse with her, she asks you if you have been facing any discrimination as well as more details about your past.

Romance Arc

Cassandra's romance arc is one where the protagonist gives everything and receives next to nothing. You pursue her, you declare you will woo her, you buy things for her and then later in Trespasser, you try to propose to her. In return, she, well, doesn't really give you anything.

Josephine's romance arc is far more balanced. If you did not bring your love interest to Halamshiral, Josephine is the one that comes to talk to you at the balcony scene. She also takes you out on a date to the theater, which can be a very thrilling and new experience to a Dalish Elf or a Carta Dwarf or a Tal-Vashoth mercenary. She lets you win the Wicked Grace match. When its all over post-Trespasser, her familiar home is open to you. In return, you pursue here, give her gifts and duel for her. There is giving and taking from both sides.

A relationship of any form, especially the romantic kind, is a two way street, not a one way street. If its a one way street, its nothing more than blind worship or if you want me to put it bluntly, p*ssy begging.

Conclusion

On the one hand, you have a woman, Cassandra, who is around the age of an auntie, who is from a family with questionable proclivities, who is judgemental, who is devoutly religious and tries forces her God onto you, who gives next to no care about any possible discrimination or problems you might face, who makes you do everything in the courtship process while giving next to nothing in return.

On the other hand, you have a woman, Josephine, in her mid to late 20s, who is from a good family, who is pretty chill, who is religiously liberal or religiously moderate, who cares about the problems you might face and who reciprocates during the courtship ritual

My question is:- Why is Cassandra the primary love interest option who was given more content ? IMO, she doesn't deserve it.

If what many of you say is true, that Bioware needs to cater to the majority of gamers, then why did they not make the woman who is more chill, more moderate, more reciprocal, more open the primary love interest option with more content ?

Now some of you might say that Bioware is doing this because of request from the fanbase. Well, if that is the case, then why the Inquisitor was not able to romance Varric ? If I recall correctly, there were numerous requests for Bioware to make Varric romanceable. Yet Bioware did not do it. So why the double standard ? Why no Varric but yes to Cassandra ? So that argument holds no water.

My Personal Real Life Stances

My real life stances are due to the evidence that I have that is available to me.

I am not the kind guy who looks around at all the other men who got cleaned out by divorce, who had their lives ruined by things like alimony and child support, looks at the statistics and naively think to myself:- "You know what, those things won't happen to me. Somehow, magically, I will make it work. Somehow, by the power of faith, I will make all this romance, marriage and kids thing work"

Faith is a belief based on an absence of data. It invites disaster. Data tells me that romance, marriage and kids are risky as f*ck with very little benefits. Therefore, I am not interested in it and that does not make me a misogynist, it makes me a cautious realist. Besides, I do not recall telling anyone else not to get romantically involved, get married and have kids.

"But your parents made it work." Yeah, they did but they were people born in the 1960s living in Southeast Asia. It is, to use SJW lingo, current year. 2016 =/= 1960s. Different times, different circumstances, different environment, different data sets, different people.

I mean, I don't smoke weed or pot. I don't drink alcohol. I don't do drugs. I know many others do it but I don't. Why ? Because I come from a family with crappy genes health wise (both grandparents had alcohol addiction, many of my aunts & uncles suffer from diabetes, stroke, high blood pressure, etc). So am I an alcoholophobe ? Or a drugophobe ? Or a drugophobe ? Or a cautious realist who understands that things such as alcoholic addiction can be inherited ? I haven't told anyone else to not partake in these things either.

Cheers.


So in other words you just made this thread to bash on Cassandra.

#173
Bayonet Hipshot

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So in other words you just made this thread to bash on Cassandra.

 

She occupies a position (primary straight male protagonist love interest with lots of content) that she does not deserve due to a multitude of reasons I listed. Otherwise, she is a decent tank follower and her Templar abilities are good against enemy mages and demons.



#174
veeia

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Well, first off, I did not posit that Bioware needs to cater to the majority of games. I understand you're responding to other people's reactions there, but since my question doesn't assume that, I have to discard that part. Their responsibility, imo, is to deliver a good story with good characters and a range of options for people to navigate that through. By doing this, I think they will service the majority of gamers, but it cannot be a sole priority. For example,  I agree with Bioware's stance on offering equality in terms of your character's gender and sexuality. I think it's a wonderful thing. I don't think they need to do it. In fact, it's because they choose to do it that makes it so meaningful. I don't know if I'd play the games if they didn't offer that anymore, but that would be my choice to stop.

 

Secondly, the majority of your reasons why Josie is "better" revolve around what I suggested is only half of what Bioware's priorities are: the player story. You didn't address the narrative aspects outside of that at all. I could argue that all of the qualities that make Cassandra unappealing to you make her more narratively appealing to me. Josie's romance may have the potential to appeal to a broader diversity of player created stories, but for others, Cassandra's specificity makes her more compelling. That is not a slam at Josie at all, who I like very much, but her lack of expressed internal conflict about the large issues shaping the game can lower the stakes in a relationship with her. Some people prefer that though, which is fine. If you want a game that prioritizes the player story and the players potential desires to that degree instead of attempting to balance it with the overall story and establishing well rounded characters with agendas and motivations of their own, then you're going to have trouble with this series.

 

edit: also, I don't care about the way you live your life. I mean, you're welcome to share but don't feel the need to defend it. It's your life. I don't care what you do as long as its not actively harming people. This is a discussion about a game, not a moral debate. If it was, I'd be approaching it a lot differently :lol:


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#175
Monica21

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She occupies a position (primary straight male protagonist love interest with lots of content) that she does not deserve due to a multitude of reasons I listed. Otherwise, she is a decent tank follower and her Templar abilities are good against enemy mages and demons.


The fact that you believe this is an objective reality as opposed to simple opinion on your part proves the arrogance with which you've approached this subject.

From your post above, you've described a fully developed character. My Lavellan may not agree with Cass on many issues (including the roster of gods you noted, to which I can only reply that Bioware doesn't give an elf Inquisitor the option to respond the way you'd like) but she manages to get along with Cass just fine, despite repeated claims that she was not sent by Andraste. Everything you listed is your own personal dislike. And frankly it just doesn't matter.
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