22 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

Slight mad theory here but I though it worth airing.   We've never really been told how the Wardens first came up with the idea of the joining.   The mixture involved needs you not just to ingest darkspawn blood but a drop of archdemon as well and the whole potion created with magic.   That is not really something you come up with by accident.    Presumably the reason the 1st Blight lasted as long as it did was that people had managed to "kill" the archdemon, only for it to respawn by that only identified the problem, not the solution.   Trying to stop people falling to Blight sickness or simply cure it, may have been an initial motivation for concocting the potion, although it doesn't explain why they thought to use archdemon blood as well as darkspawn.

 

So it seems more likely that someone actually guided them in that direction.   Could it have been a sentient darkspawn?   Not necessarily Corypheus but one of the others?    It was noticeable in Legacy that whilst Cory seemed to attract the darkspawn, possibly without intending to, he was not actually in control of them.    In DAI he prefers the idea of a demon army rather than a darkspawn one, when you would think the latter would be much easier to control.    

 

The Chant suggests that the fallen Magisters blame the old gods for their fate.   Cory certainly wasn't happy when we revived him in Legacy and he was Dumat's servant.    If others had been persuaded to assist in the ritual, they might be even less happy at what Dumat had led them to.    Then their servants who had also been turned into darkspawn ignored their commands and went off seeking him.   Even if the darkspawn had originally been under their control, when Dumat arose they followed him.    Is it possible that the darkspawn Magisters resented this?    One of them was able to resist his call and sought a way to defeat him and take back control of their followers.   It would also explain why a by-product of the Joining is that it creates a suitable vessel for the Magister to regenerate into and that they are in control of the Grey Wardens, particularly mage Grey Wardens as a result.   

 

The proto-Grey Wardens would listen to them because after 100 years of Blight people were pretty desperate and why wouldn't they believe the sentient darkspawn wanted to help?    Plus all the original Grey Wardens died defeating Dumat, so there was no one left to say how they knew to create the Joining, simply a record of what was involved.    Then shortly after his defeat, the later Grey Wardens discovered sentient darkspawn.    If they had been fighting on the side of the archdemon, you'd think the Grey Wardens would have known about them before that.    Also, if they existed, why didn't the soul of Dumat jump to them in preference to a darkspawn?  Clearly something must have prevented it from doing so.   The sentient darkspawn may have realised that it would have to actually kill the archdemon itself for this to happen and they didn't want to get killed trying to get to it.   Whether the sentient darkspawn realised that the passage of the old god soul would kill both itself and the sentient being or whether it thought it would be a way of acquiring the old god power through later possessing the Grey Warden, the likely outcome was still to remove Dumat as the controlling force behind the darkspawn.

 

It just seems too convenient that the very thing intended to overcome an archdemon actually gives greater power to the darkspawn Magister over the Grey Wardens and a means for cheating death for the whole thing to have come about entirely by chance.

[thepiebaker]

I look at it this way.
They knew lyrium had power in it therefore drink it for power.
They knew dragon blood had power in it therefore drink it for power (reavers)

Some tribes, especially cannibalistic ones in today's world believe if I eat X thing I gain it's strength.
They thought "hey mix archdemon blood with lyrium and drink it" much like mixing crack, 5 hour energy, redbull, and coffee and jamming it into your bloodstream. Eventually they realized it was a bad idea and put a spell/other stuff in it so it would not be as likely to kill them.

VOILA grey wardens are super templar reavers fueled by the taint.

The magisters when found decades after the defeat of archdemonized dumat were confused and dazed as if the defeat of dumat freed them from the fade or some sort of trance.

[Almostfaceman]

Actually the origins of the Joining are in the wiki and they got them from it looks like the Dragon Age tabletop RPG... the Game Masters Guide, set 2, p.3. 

 

In -305 Ancient (890 TE), after nearly a century of bitter war against the darkspawn hordes, a group of veteran warriors came together in Weisshaupt Fortress in the Anderfels, the western part of the Tevinter Imperium. Warden legends sing of their leader Carinus, and the sacrifice the founders made as they tried to save the world while their families perished. It is thought that Nakiri of The Donarks was the one who first suggested imbibing the blood of the darkspawn, as his people were known to consume the blood of their enemies to absorb their power. Tevinter mages in the group added to this knowledge, and it is said that elven slaves also contributed ancient knowledge from Arlathan. This was in return for being treated as equals in the order and with the intention that, after the Blight was ended, they would concentrate on freeing the elves. The Joining symbolically cut their ties to all worldly concerns, in order to dedicate themselves to fighting the darkspawn. They called themselves the Grey Wardens, and would accept anyone, no matter their race or background, without distinction if only deemed suitable to join the order.[6]

 

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grey_Wardens

 

http://dragonage.wik...ens#cite_note-5

[Lunatica]

 

The flaw in your story is that simply drinking darkspawn blood does not make one a Grey Warden.
Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone, rather than slowly enough to sicken them. Archdemon blood can be used (though is understandably much rarer), but any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work. Your rank-and-file darkspawn simply doesn't have enough of the corruption within him to do the trick... though who knows? If he drank enough, maybe it might work. I don't doubt a story of an "accidental" Grey Warden could be justified, although it would take some doing. 

 

[Akiza]

The archdemon blood is not necessary to create GW.

Someone who is dying from the taint can be saved simply by force that person to drink even more taint until it become a GW.

[Gervaise]

Thank you for the quote from the Table Top RPG.   That makes it very clear.   It is a pity that wasn't included in the subsequent source books.   However, the details do appear to have been changed from how they were originally envisaged (or DG maintains).   In World of Thedas it definitely says you need a drop of archdemon blood as well as ordinary darkspawn in order to make it remotely possible to consume.    It is the intensity of the archdemon blood that makes the effect either instantly fatal or completes the Joining.    It would be interesting to know what ancient knowledge of Arlathan that the elves specifically contributed.   Could it have been the bit about counteracting the soul jump?

 

I'd still like to know what the darkspawn Magisters were doing for the 200 years of the 1st Blight and why the Grey Wardens only discovered their existence after it was over.  If Dumat held them in its thrall, then presumably other archdemons should have done the same and they should have returned to the Deep Roads with the rest of the darkspawn.  Also if Dumat controlled their thinking, why weren't they more active in the Blight?   Yet 12 years after the death of Dumat, the Grey Wardens first "discovered" their existence, capture Corypheus and study him for 10 years before concluding the only way of dealing with him is to permanently imprison him.     Then instead of using normal people to mount a permanent guard on his prison (considering they know there are others like him out there) they take their secrecy to extreme lengths of stupidity and apparently leave it open to chance that innocent travellers might stumble into the trap or someone might do so who was capable of freeing him.   They didn't even seem capable of informing their own people of the danger.   There is no way Janeka, as a mage, should have been allowed anywhere near the prison.   Thinking back, did it say she had given the joining to those Carta dwarves; otherwise how did Corypheus manage to control them? 

 

It is also puzzling why Corypheus ceased attracting darkspawn to his vicinity the moment he was freed.   Likewise, once the Wardens knew his prison had been breached, an immediate warning should have gone out across their membership.     Clarel apparently did know about Corypheus and yet not once did anyone think that the mass Calling might have something to do with him. 

[Dai Grepher]

I think it was explained somewhere that Tevinter Magisters researched the taint and tried to find a way to slay the Archdemon. The Anders kept fighting the Blight, but the Archdemon kept rising. It wasn't until the Magisters developed the Joining that things started to turn around. Then after it proved successful, the Grey Wardens were founded.

Here Lies the Abyss has a sidequest where you find a vial of Darkspawn blood and place it on a table of a spirit praying for the solution on how to kill the Archdemon. This Fade representation could be inaccurate, but it might imply that the Magisters sought the spirits, and they were answered eventually.

BioWare will probably make Mythal the source of the information regarding the Joining. That would also explain why she was able to come up with the Dark Ritual and how to kill Corypheus. Though it would raise the questions of why she didn't take a host long before this if she could communicate, and also why she didn't also design the Dark Ritual along with the Joining in order to preserve Dumat's soul.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Is the tabletop RPG stuff canon? Because I know the Nakiri were mentioned there, but the World of Thedas books suggest the Donarks is unexplored by Thedosians, and if there have inhabitants, they are unknown.

[Almostfaceman]

Is the tabletop RPG stuff canon? Because I know the Nakiri were mentioned there, but the World of Thedas books suggest the Donarks is unexplored by Thedosians, and if there have inhabitants, they are unknown.

 

That would be a good question for a twitter post to the devs. It's as close as we have to a definitive answer at this time, however. 

[Gold Dragon]

Riordan In DAO actually does speak of this, if you speak to him in the Arl's house.

[German Soldier]

BioWare will probably make Mythal the source of the information regarding the Joining. That would also explain why she was able to come up with the Dark Ritual and how to kill Corypheus. Though it would raise the questions of why she didn't take a host long before this if she could communicate, and also why she didn't also design the Dark Ritual along with the Joining in order to preserve Dumat's soul.

Indeed Mythal is the all source of everything in the universe.

GW have nothing to do with Mythal period.

[thepiebaker]

I think it was explained somewhere that Tevinter Magisters researched the taint and tried to find a way to slay the Archdemon. The Anders kept fighting the Blight, but the Archdemon kept rising. It wasn't until the Magisters developed the Joining that things started to turn around. Then after it proved successful, the Grey Wardens were founded.

Here Lies the Abyss has a sidequest where you find a vial of Darkspawn blood and place it on a table of a spirit praying for the solution on how to kill the Archdemon. This Fade representation could be inaccurate, but it might imply that the Magisters sought the spirits, and they were answered eventually.

BioWare will probably make Mythal the source of the information regarding the Joining. That would also explain why she was able to come up with the Dark Ritual and how to kill Corypheus. Though it would raise the questions of why she didn't take a host long before this if she could communicate, and also why she didn't also design the Dark Ritual along with the Joining in order to preserve Dumat's soul.

There is room that mythal may have preserved dumat's soul anyway. From what I've seen adrastate could very well be an ogb. Mythal also could have had a host prior to flemeth or flemeth's history is skewed.

[Dai Grepher]

No, the Grey Warden who slayed Dumat died with him. That's how they knew the Joining worked. All the UltSac Wardens have their own tomb at Weisshaupt, which means the Dark Ritual wasn't around until the Fifth Blight.

[thepiebaker]

No, the Grey Warden who slayed Dumat died with him. That's how they knew the Joining worked. All the UltSac Wardens have their own tomb at Weisshaupt, which means the Dark Ritual wasn't around until the Fifth Blight.

So are you telling me that they knew for sure 100% without a doubt that prior to the "ultimate" death of the first Archdemon that that is EXACTLY how it was going to play out?

I'd say that the gw died from sustained wounds after the final blow.


Let's assume that mythal gave a nudge in finding the process of the joining. Would she have told them about the dark ritual... we don't know how manipulative mythal was before flemeth. She could have omitted that tidbit. Seduced one with her host at the time to be the mother of an ogb.

But the dark ritual, andrastate being the product or no, had to be done before to be confirmed and not just theorized.

[Gervaise]

I dare say the writers would explain the bit about the Donarks in that the Nakiri died out through drinking the blood of their enemies seeing as in this case they would have been darkspawn and they probably didn't have the essential archdemon drop of blood needed to ensure survival.   Even if they did, the Joining generally makes you infertile, so it would amount to the same thing.     Then people generally forgot about them or their contribution to ending the First Blight.     There has to be something of interest up in the Donarks because the Qunari have a colony up there, so at least one group in Thedas knows about the area and whether it is inhabited or not.  Legends of fierce beasties have deterred the rest of Thedas from trying to find out.

[Sifr]

The archdemon blood is not necessary to create GW.

Someone who is dying from the taint can be saved simply by force that person to drink even more taint until it become a GW.

 

The lore has been a bit iffy on this point (as have the writers) and gone back and forth a couple times, whether you need Archdemon blood or treated darkspawn blood with sufficient levels of corruption?

 

The World of Thedas books are going with the idea that a drop of Archdemon blood is needed to prime the mixture in order for it to work, so that might be the "official" answer they seem to be going with?

 

I think it was explained somewhere that Tevinter Magisters researched the taint and tried to find a way to slay the Archdemon. The Anders kept fighting the Blight, but the Archdemon kept rising. It wasn't until the Magisters developed the Joining that things started to turn around. Then after it proved successful, the Grey Wardens were founded.

 

Do you have a source?

 

Tevinter Mages might have researched the taint and have been involved with the proto-Wardens, since the Anderfels was part of the Imperium by that point, however the idea that it was the Tevinters and not the Wardens who came up with the Joining is dubious.

 

Why would Tevinter have discovered the means to make their troops immune to the Darkspawn and not put them through the Joining? Nor have ever bothered to use this means to keep back Darkspawn in the many Blights that have happened since? And if they could create an army that could potentially fight back, would they have been so quick to abandon the Anderfels and it's people to the horde?

 

Here Lies the Abyss has a sidequest where you find a vial of Darkspawn blood and place it on a table of a spirit praying for the solution on how to kill the Archdemon. This Fade representation could be inaccurate, but it might imply that the Magisters sought the spirits, and they were answered eventually.

 

The codex that goes with the sidequest says that the Warden would often go to sleep afraid that they'd never find a way to defeat the Archdemon or the Darkspawn. It never says he was a mage, a magister or even sought spiritual help, only that he was one of the earliest Wardens.

 

Avernus states in Warden's Keep that while he believes that the origin of the taint lies in the Black City, it seems to be utterly "alien" to the spirits of the Fade, who never were able to offer him any insight what it is and where it came from as they didn't seem to know? It's part of why he considered tapping into the corruption for more power, because it one doesn't have to truck with demons to acquire the power and they cannot control it.

 

(Nightmare in Inquisition seems to be manipulating the Warden's fears and connection to the Fade to mimic the Calling, rather than manipulating the corruption within their systems to make them hear it).

[Dai Grepher]

So are you telling me that they knew for sure 100% without a doubt that prior to the "ultimate" death of the first Archdemon that that is EXACTLY how it was going to play out?

No. They probably thought it was just their best hope.

I'd say that the gw died from sustained wounds after the final blow.

But the death comes directly following the final blow. A Warden isn't likely to die immediately after the final blow. He would have to be on his last breath already for anyone to think that he died from preexisting injuries. Plus, they must have known something about the Archdemon's soul being destroyed. It would be easy to conclude that the Grey Warden's soul would be destroyed as well.

Let's assume that mythal gave a nudge in finding the process of the joining. Would she have told them about the dark ritual... we don't know how manipulative mythal was before flemeth. She could have omitted that tidbit. Seduced one with her host at the time to be the mother of an ogb.

My impression is that the Dark Ritual is rather obvious to the Grey Warden who is being bedded. Otherwise, why would Morrigan bother talking about it ahead of time? Why wouldn't she just trick the Warden or Alistair into sleeping with her?

But the dark ritual, andrastate being the product or no, had to be done before to be confirmed and not just theorized.

That makes no sense. It wouldn't have been done before the first time it was done. What truly must have been done before was a Grey Warden slaying the Archdemon and dying from it. They had to prove a Grey Warden could do it before any Dark Ritual could be created around their seed.

It's entirely possible that the Dark Ritual didn't exist until after the Fourth Blight.

Do you have a source?

I think this is where I read it.

http://dragonage.wik...nd_the_founding

Tevinter Mages might have researched the taint and have been involved with the proto-Wardens, since the Anderfels was part of the Imperium by that point, however the idea that it was the Tevinters and not the Wardens who came up with the Joining is dubious.

Why? Seems logical that Magisters would come up with a magic ritual, doesn't it?

Why would Tevinter have discovered the means to make their troops immune to the Darkspawn and not put them through the Joining?

Nor have ever bothered to use this means to keep back Darkspawn in the many Blights that have happened since?

Probably something to do with the failure rate and the negative drawbacks, like the 30 year lifespan.

Your point exactly? Tevinter could have been doing this regardless, but they don't.

And if they could create an army that could potentially fight back, would they have been so quick to abandon the Anderfels and it's people to the horde?

Either they didn't have the Joining yet, or they wrote it off as not worth trying to get back even with the taint resistance. And by the time the darkspawn were cleared off the surface, Andraste was rising up against Tevinter, so they had other things to worry about.

The codex that goes with the sidequest says that the Warden would often go to sleep afraid that they'd never find a way to defeat the Archdemon or the Darkspawn. It never says he was a mage, a magister or even sought spiritual help, only that he was one of the earliest Wardens.

I wrote that the memory suggests that they may have turned to spirits for help. I didn't write that this was fact. I even wrote that the Fade memory could be inaccurate, as most Fade memories are.

Avernus states in Warden's Keep that while he believes that the origin of the taint lies in the Black City, it seems to be utterly "alien" to the spirits of the Fade, who never were able to offer him any insight what it is and where it came from as they didn't seem to know? It's part of why he considered tapping into the corruption for more power, because it one doesn't have to truck with demons to acquire the power and they cannot control it.

Again, I wrote that spirits may have been sought out, and they may have answered. I didn't write that they definitely gave the solution, but they may have given some answers regarding magic, bindings, or spiritual connections (such as "songs"). Also, just because Avernus learned nothing from lower level demons doesn't mean all spirits and demons are incapable of understanding the taint. Imshael knows enough to turn people into red templars, and also how to remove red lyrium from a body. His understanding of the real world probably gives him better insight.

[straykat]

I think it'd suck if Andraste turns out to be an OGB. It in effect makes her less interesting than real heroes and slave rebellions...especially women that Gaider based her on. Joan of Arc and Boudicca. These were women who did remarkable things as just soldiers.

 

It'd be nice if just one passionate, skilled person kicked ass.... even for a brief moment. Instead of turning everything into Wonderland.

 

 

 

 

I didn't know that bit about the tabletop RPG.. interesting.

[Dai Grepher]

Andraste was special no matter what. Even as a normal human, certain natural events occurred that hindered Tevinter's defense efforts against her. So in that case, it implies she did have the Maker's assistance. Otherwise they would have to explain this somehow. Solas was asleep. The evanuris were sealed away. Mythal wasn't active. Even Flemeth wasn't powerful enough to do those things. And I think if she were carrying Dumat's soul and casting magic, people around her would have noticed.

[straykat]

I'm just saying it'd be nice to see one big hero kick ass that way..

 

That's sort of the basis of DAO to me. Loghain was a hero by any standard... but he gets turned into a villain for refusing to acknowledge "legends". He thought he could win through sheer badassery, and left the Wardens and Cailan to their own devices. After that, everything is an act of desperation on his part.

 

I know I'm getting off-topic. This is loosely tied to the joining, I guess. Loghain only learns when he goes through it himself. It's only because of this that he's "complete" in this world. Everything else isn't good enough.

[Gervaise]

Well Garahel was pretty kick ass in his way.   He was certainly charismatic and it would appear gathered all the various outcasts from society throughout Thedas to his cause: castless dwarves, apostate mages and slaves from Tevinter, together with getting the various Freemarcher states to work together for once.   Yet he started out as just an ordinary city elf who wanted to support his sister who was a mage.   Mind you he did have a griffon to give him an edge over his foes.

 

The shine was taken off Andraste a bit for me when it was revealed that she wasn't a child slave (like Calpurnia) who managed to escape, made her way back home south and then married a warlord, but was already the wife of Maferath when she was captured by local Tevinter slavers, with whom Maferath needed to negotiate her release in order to keep his support with the majority of Alamarri who had been loyal to her father and thus to her.  She had status from the beginning and had been having visions for years even before her capture.   Her marriage had always been part of a plan to unify the tribes in the south but some were rather slow at warming to the idea of supporting the plan to oust Tevinter control from the area, although their presence wasn't nearly as strong as the Chantry later made out.   Then conveniently Andraste started having even more vivid visitations from the Maker and impressed the locals enough to want to support a military campaign.    The Chant makes the whole thing sound very inspirational and the aim was to free the enslaved from the rule of the tyrannical Magisters but the reality would appear to be that Maferath just wanted to extend his own power base and take advantage of the weakness of the Imperium in the south.   Which is why when Andraste's crusade became a liability, he gave her up.    Strangely enough I think that reduces the likelihood that Andraste was anything other than an ordinary woman who was a bit Fade touched as a result of the incident that killed her half sister.  Mind you even that is contained in an account written by the Emperor Drakon, so probably overlaid with his own interpretation of events. 

 

I like the idea of Andraste as an inspirational warrior woman who fought for the downtrodden and oppressed slaves of the Tevinter Imperium but I'm starting to believe that is just a Chantry myth.

[straykat]

Well Garahel was pretty kick ass in his way.   He was certainly charismatic and it would appear gathered all the various outcasts from society throughout Thedas to his cause: castless dwarves, apostate mages and slaves from Tevinter, together with getting the various Freemarcher states to work together for once.   Yet he started out as just an ordinary city elf who wanted to support his sister who was a mage.   Mind you he did have a griffon to give him an edge over his foes.

 

The shine was taken off Andraste a bit for me when it was revealed that she wasn't a child slave (like Calpurnia) who managed to escape, made her way back home south and then married a warlord, but was already the wife of Maferath when she was captured by local Tevinter slavers, with whom Maferath needed to negotiate her release in order to keep his support with the majority of Alamarri who had been loyal to her father and thus to her.  She had status from the beginning and had been having visions for years even before her capture.   Her marriage had always been part of a plan to unify the tribes in the south but some were rather slow at warming to the idea of supporting the plan to oust Tevinter control from the area, although their presence wasn't nearly as strong as the Chantry later made out.   Then conveniently Andraste started having even more vivid visitations from the Maker and impressed the locals enough to want to support a military campaign.    The Chant makes the whole thing sound very inspirational and the aim was to free the enslaved from the rule of the tyrannical Magisters but the reality would appear to be that Maferath just wanted to extend his own power base and take advantage of the weakness of the Imperium in the south.   Which is why when Andraste's crusade became a liability, he gave her up.    Strangely enough I think that reduces the likelihood that Andraste was anything other than an ordinary woman who was a bit Fade touched as a result of the incident that killed her half sister.  Mind you even that is contained in an account written by the Emperor Drakon, so probably overlaid with his own interpretation of events. 

 

I like the idea of Andraste as an inspirational warrior woman who fought for the downtrodden and oppressed slaves of the Tevinter Imperium but I'm starting to believe that is just a Chantry myth.

 

I barely even register Maferath. He just sounds jealous to me... and he says as much in the Sacred Ashes quest..if there's anything to that. But interesting theory.

[Dai Grepher]

If you tell him you don't know the answer to his riddle, he'll let you pass anyway. What a nice fella.