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Reducing special ammo abilities into weapon mods.


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#126
Cyonan

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There isn't any actual reason to assume that omnitool use is more difficult that appropriately using custom ammo in the Mass Effect setting.  Making that problem go away implies that you are not in fact taking the adept button press argument to its logical conclusion.

 

It's also worth noting that Soldiers can and do use the omnitool for various other reasons throughout the series including making it into a melee weapon in Mass Effect 3, so it's obvious they know how to use it.

 

Oh, sorry but that's not exactly what I am referring to. I need to clarify that I wasn't writing about any individual player or DM. I was talking about certain pen and paper role-playing games /rule-sets, which by their rules impose heavy restrictions on what DM or players can do or what's suppose to happen in a game, unlike more traditional RGPs like D&D or Vampire: The Masquerade . I am not surprised if this sounds foreign in the context of tabletops. These type of games are not widely played or known compared to more popular and traditional games like aforementioned ones.  

 

It's an obscure niche of obscure hobby, but they qualify as RPGs, and the point I was trying to make that even some tabletop roleplaying games can limit a game narrative and freedom of both players and DM (in case there is one), which is not depended at all of whom are playing the game.

 

Here and here are couple extreme examples of these type of "indie games". 

 

Fair enough.

 

It's probably still a bit of a case of "must just be my group" since we don't use any public ruleset. Our GM is the one working on creating his own which allows for a lot of freedom =P



#127
Sylvius the Mad

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It's also worth noting that Soldiers can and do use the omnitool for various other reasons throughout the series including making it into a melee weapon in Mass Effect 3, so it's obvious they know how to use it.

I "know how to use" a chainsaw. That doesn't mean I can carve ice sculptures with it.
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#128
Dabrikishaw

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I don't know about any of you but I always found disruptor ammo, warp ammo, etc... as a waste of an ability. I don't believe they should take up an entire power slot, especially now that MP have introduced so many knew abilities that can work with every class. I propose special ammo be reduced into some type of weapon mod that don't last the entire mission. I think it would be cool to carry a few with you and the effect last until it's time to switch out for a new thermal clip. I think it would be much more interesting this way. So any Ideas?

If you're asking for a return to how special ammo worked in Mass Effect 1, I'm all for that. 2 is the reason for the shift after all.



#129
Cyonan

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I "know how to use" a chainsaw. That doesn't mean I can carve ice sculptures with it.

 

It's a good thing that it's an omni-tool then and not a chainsaw.

 

It's basically a mobile computer on your wrist. It's like saying you know how to start up Word but not Excel.



#130
capn233

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Is there reason to assume it isn't?Both positions require justification.


Assumptions are never logical. What I'm saying is that the game could solve this design problem by asserting that there's some relevant skill-related component.


Maybe using Cryo-Ammo isn't as simple as pressing a button. If the devs would explain the restriction, the apparent incongruity would go away.

I guess they should have written much longer class descriptions:

Soldiers are pure combat specialists. No one is tougher or more effective at taking down enemies with gunfire. Soldiers have the most thorough weapons training and can use all special ammo types. This is because using specialized ammo is much more complicated than just pressing a button, and Adepts are too busy learning how to properly use biotics to learn the appropriate use of specialized ammo. The extra training Soldiers spend on effective use of ammo powers prevents them from learning how to use advanced tech abilities in the latest combat omnitools, which is nice for Engineers so they aren't deemed redundant. Pay no attention to the contrived reason only some people are able to manipulate mass effect fields as biotics.

 

It's also worth noting that Soldiers can and do use the omnitool for various other reasons throughout the series including making it into a melee weapon in Mass Effect 3, so it's obvious they know how to use it.

Exactly. There is clearly more in game evidence that Soldiers should be able to use whatever tech powers they want than that Adepts should be able to use whatever ammo power they want.

#131
Sylvius the Mad

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It's a good thing that it's an omni-tool then and not a chainsaw.

It's basically a mobile computer on your wrist. It's like saying you know how to start up Word but not Excel.

What if it's like the difference between Excel and SQL Server? What if Overheat requires knowledge of thermodynamics or partial differential equations? Or maybe Cryo-ammo does.

#132
Cyonan

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What if it's like the difference between Excel and SQL Server? What if using ammo mods requires knowledge of thermodynamics or partial differential equations?

 

Then you can have somebody else that knows what they're doing write the necessary code for you.

 

It's something that you can activate in the middle of combat in half a second. It's not going to require complex calculations right there on the battlefield. They're a combat Engineer, not the Doctor.



#133
Pistolized

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......
Quote
Soldiers are pure combat specialists. No one is tougher or more effective at taking down enemies with gunfire. Soldiers have the most thorough weapons training and can use all special ammo types. This is because using specialized ammo is much more complicated than just pressing a button, and Adepts are too busy learning how to properly use biotics to learn the appropriate use of specialized ammo.  ......
........

I agree with that snippet.  Not sure who originally wrote it, but I was trying to find a way to say the same thing.  So, I don't have a problem with allowing weapon mods be the source of Ammo Abilities, but it makes sense to me that it would require skill points be dedicated towards the purpose.  Kind of like ME1 where you could use any weapon, but without training you wouldn't be any good.
 
And as a sidenote, by following the basic Classed RPG system, it wouldn't bother me to see that non-Soldier hybrid classes do not get the option to train in ammo mod usage.
 

Then you can have somebody else that knows what they're doing write the necessary code for you.
 
It's something that you can activate in the middle of combat in half a second. It's not going to require complex calculations right there on the battlefield. They're a combat Engineer, not the Doctor.

Again, having the ability to shoot fire from your Omni Tool does not mean you took the time to train in its use in combat situations. Things like force, distance, spread, volume, for each circumstance - these are things that would take a whole lot of training to master. And since we're using classes, that means by definition, that certain classes have not trained in that.

I feel like I should ask if that all made sense, but I'm pretty confident I just won every argument in the last six pages. :)

#134
Cyonan

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Again, having the ability to shoot fire from your Omni Tool does not mean you took the time to train in its use in combat situations. Things like force, distance, spread, volume, for each circumstance - these are things that would take a whole lot of training to master. And since we're using classes, that means by definition, that certain classes have not trained in that.

I feel like I should ask if that all made sense, but I'm pretty confident I just won every argument in the last six pages. :)

 

This is a universe where we have advanced targeting VIs, so we can just have them do everything needed.

 

The thing about using technology to explain why powers work in a universe that has highly advanced technology is that I can use the same stuff to explain why anybody should technically be capable of using most tech based powers.

 

Biotics is the only one that can get away with it because either a person has biotic capability or they don't. The lore on that still gets broken though when a non biotic Shep can use things like Reave and Slam from bonus powers.



#135
capn233

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This is a universe where we have advanced targeting VIs, so we can just have them do everything needed.

 

The thing about using technology to explain why powers work in a universe that has highly advanced technology is that I can use the same stuff to explain why anybody should technically be capable of using most tech based powers.

 

Biotics is the only one that can get away with it because either a person has biotic capability or they don't. The lore on that still gets broken though when a non biotic Shep can use things like Reave and Slam from bonus powers.

 

Right, and then you are in a regime where the two classes are Biotic and Non Biotic. The Biotic gets to use everything in the game, while the Non Biotic doesn't.  What a compelling class structure.

 

Hopefully the thread can get back to the regularly scheduled ammo power talk now, although maybe that has run its course as well.



#136
AlanC9

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I gotta agree with capn223 here. Cyonan, you're not making the idea sound desirable.

#137
Atomkick

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Throughout the series, I felt like abilities of every class were very few(few enough) which made BioWare to put ammo types into abilities section so that it doesn't look empty. I could be wrong. That being said, I won't really mind if special ammo types become a part of customization. Helps design a weapon to our preference, pre-applying different ammo types for different kind of weapons.


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#138
Sylvius the Mad

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Right, and then you are in a regime where the two classes are Biotic and Non Biotic. The Biotic gets to use everything in the game, while the Non Biotic doesn't. What a compelling class structure.

It would make for an excellent classless game, though. Make biotic abilities really expensive, and only allow you to buy them at level 1, and you're good to go.

This is also how mages should work in Dragon Age.

#139
Cyonan

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Right, and then you are in a regime where the two classes are Biotic and Non Biotic. The Biotic gets to use everything in the game, while the Non Biotic doesn't.  What a compelling class structure.

 

Hopefully the thread can get back to the regularly scheduled ammo power talk now, although maybe that has run its course as well.

 

Yeah it really doesn't sound like a compelling class structure for the game, and I like the classes so I'd rather not go completely classless.

 

Though for the ammo power stuff it seems that the general problem we run into is:

 

> Soldiers currently have 3 out of 6 active powers as ammo powers. If we make these universal mods then we need to give them something to fill out their kit

> Powers that overlap the current function of Adrenaline Rush or Concussive Shot feel kind of pointless

> There has been some resistance to new powers that require frequent use. I don't think it was mentioned, but it also would clutter up the GCD and players might feel that just spamming AR for a damage boost is the better option than short duration utility things. This is a problem the Vanguard already faces and why Nova needed to not be on the GCD.

 

Given those things, it seems that any replacement for ammo powers would functionally act extremely similar to ammo powers just without actually being ammo powers. Basically any sort of "stance" ability that you can only have one active at a time and provides a passive benefit while it's active.

 

Even if we ignore the last one and try to give them more frequently used abilities it's still going to be difficult because being a master of weapons means the Soldier will naturally derive most of their gameplay through the use of guns. The only other abilities I can think of is either throwing them a bunch of utility or giving them powers that simply don't mix with the current kit to allow for an entirely new build like Flamer.

 

Even in ME3 MP with the Soldier kits you can see they only found so many ways to do "shoot guns better" when you've got grenadiers like the Krogan/Batarian Soldier or the Flamer using Vorcha/Geth.



#140
thepiebaker

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Part of the discussion here I'd say needs to be made are what options for powers for the soldier class would replace the ammo (filler) powers and how else to balance the mundane abilities of the soldier versus the space magic of the biotic and techsoldier has while preserving the uniqueness of the weapon specialist.

Slow time (adrenaline rush)
Pew pew pew faster and more accurately (marksman)
A potential base damage boost without slow time or faster pew pew.
Fortification
Various mp exclusive abilities (many racially exclusive)

Then the whole idea of weapon exclusivity for weapons like the AR or HW.

My solution: no weapon exclusivity, ammo are mods, bring non racially exclusive mp abilities, soldier gets bonus to weapon mods (exclusive or more mods than other classes) add ability for increased damage without rof or slow time. Add deployable cover.

#141
LinksOcarina

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I never understood why modded ammo is considered a "power"

 

I mean, does an adept not how how to push the "cryo ammo" button on their guns?

 

Probably to compensate for the removal of modded ammunition types in the transition between Mass Effect 1 and 2.

 

I think bringing the mods back is a fair play, would be cool for a loadout before a mission of some kind, and you can turn it into a finite resource, lasting only a few clips.


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#142
thepiebaker

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Yeah it really doesn't sound like a compelling class structure for the game, and I like the classes so I'd rather not go completely classless.

Though for the ammo power stuff it seems that the general problem we run into is:

> Soldiers currently have 3 out of 6 active powers as ammo powers. If we make these universal mods then we need to give them something to fill out their kit
> Powers that overlap the current function of Adrenaline Rush or Concussive Shot feel kind of pointless
> There has been some resistance to new powers that require frequent use. I don't think it was mentioned, but it also would clutter up the GCD and players might feel that just spamming AR for a damage boost is the better option than short duration utility things. This is a problem the Vanguard already faces and why Nova needed to not be on the GCD.

Given those things, it seems that any replacement for ammo powers would functionally act extremely similar to ammo powers just without actually being ammo powers. Basically any sort of "stance" ability that you can only have one active at a time and provides a passive benefit while it's active.

Even if we ignore the last one and try to give them more frequently used abilities it's still going to be difficult because being a master of weapons means the Soldier will naturally derive most of their gameplay through the use of guns. The only other abilities I can think of is either throwing them a bunch of utility or giving them powers that simply don't mix with the current kit to allow for an entirely new build like Flamer.

Even in ME3 MP with the Soldier kits you can see they only found so many ways to do "shoot guns better" when you've got grenadiers like the Krogan/Batarian Soldier or the Flamer using Vorcha/Geth.


As a primary soldier I can say one of ARs issue is its overall versitility.
>instant reload
>damage boost
>slow time
>restores sheild gate

It's a panic button for every panic.

#143
capn233

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Yeah it really doesn't sound like a compelling class structure for the game, and I like the classes so I'd rather not go completely classless.

 

Though for the ammo power stuff it seems that the general problem we run into is:

 

> Soldiers currently have 3 out of 6 active powers as ammo powers. If we make these universal mods then we need to give them something to fill out their kit

> Powers that overlap the current function of Adrenaline Rush or Concussive Shot feel kind of pointless

> There has been some resistance to new powers that require frequent use. I don't think it was mentioned, but it also would clutter up the GCD and players might feel that just spamming AR for a damage boost is the better option than short duration utility things. This is a problem the Vanguard already faces and why Nova needed to not be on the GCD.

 

Given those things, it seems that any replacement for ammo powers would functionally act extremely similar to ammo powers just without actually being ammo powers. Basically any sort of "stance" ability that you can only have one active at a time and provides a passive benefit while it's active.

 

Even if we ignore the last one and try to give them more frequently used abilities it's still going to be difficult because being a master of weapons means the Soldier will naturally derive most of their gameplay through the use of guns. The only other abilities I can think of is either throwing them a bunch of utility or giving them powers that simply don't mix with the current kit to allow for an entirely new build like Flamer.

 

Even in ME3 MP with the Soldier kits you can see they only found so many ways to do "shoot guns better" when you've got grenadiers like the Krogan/Batarian Soldier or the Flamer using Vorcha/Geth.

 

Yeah with the caster classes it is already a bit of a problem when you fill up the quick slots with your own powers and then have hardly any space to map squadmate powers.  This problem is probably the worst with ME2 Adept or Engineer since the powers actually had meaningful differentiation.  I think it might be ok to prune powers down to ME2 numbers (5 powers, 1 passive, 1 bonus) and still have distinct classes.

 

Soldier probably still is workable with more actives.  If we go the route of pilfering MP powers, you can make an ok Soldier w/o ammo powers although nearly everything is an active.  I don't know what sort of power would make a good sustains when you already have actives that are limited duration buffs.  Or how many different types of buffs you can separate out into Soldier powers.  You can't make everyone happy all of the time so probably Soldier will get labeled as boring by some regardless.

 

Adrenaline Rush - buffs animation speed, movement speed, and damage reduction

Marksman - buffs accuracy, rate of fire, maybe add stability?

Concussive Shot - token stagger power, would be nice if amplification could work with ammo equipment... small victory for soldier if so

Tactical Scan / Recon Mine? - debuff and or trap power.

Hex Shield - would actually add a little more team support besides "damage."

 

Even if everyone agreed this is ok for Soldier, now we have to wonder which combat powers should be slapped onto Infiltrator and Vanguard.  Would need to figure out if one of these is actually a "trademark" power for Soldier, or if trademarks still exist.



#144
BloodyMares

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What about some non-lethal powers to vary the gameplay a bit?


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#145
Xerxes52

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What about some non-lethal powers to vary the gameplay a bit?

 

That might work, but we'd need a reason to take our enemies alive. Possibly we could do X-Com style interrogations on captured Andromedans.



#146
BloodyMares

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That might work, but we'd need a reason to take our enemies alive. Possibly we could do X-Com style interrogations on captured Andromedans.

In Deus Ex I didn't need a reason. I just didn't have a reason to kill.



#147
The One True Nobody

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Oh, look... I think my weapons knowledge killed the thread.

 

Shame, could've been a decent suggestion.

 

Guns never used cartridges in this series to begin with, even the "ammo" in ME2/3 was just an ejectable heat sink. Ammo for gameplay purposes, but in a lore sense, ammo powers modified the slugs cut out of the ammo block the same way the ammo mods in ME1 did. Modifying the slugs fired during the process of firing them is more economical than attaching specific ammo blocks to the gun, and makes it easier to swap out ammo types based on the situation. It also ensures the ammo "power" itself is never used up, so the only expendable material is a chunk of metal that's used to make slugs.

 

Ammo powers simply activate a given tech module on the gun that allows that type of ammo to be fired. Nothing more. What really doesn't make a lot of sense is the "entire squad gains ammo power" upgrades. Those are just silly in the sense that if every squadmember in a team had remote omnitool control of their squadmates' weapons in order to activate those modules, things would get disorganized in a hurry. It also begs the question of why every soldier couldn't just use all of the ammo types themselves.



#148
Mikael_Sebastia

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Abstractions are fine as long as they're internally consistent. Hit points, is particular, work really well for me, if they model damage the same way for everyone (as they do in tabletop RPGs).

And many game systems will even make explicit what XP actually represent, allowing the actual acquisition of skills to be done off-screen.

 

Fair enough. Yours is not an unreasonable position at all, especially If you value consistency and certain sort of transparency / explicitness above all else. Or at least see everything else as a subsidiary to them. However if I clarify this "negative cherry picking", I meant, that even these time-tested and usually working mechanics can easily have internal flaws within them. Because they reduce these excessively complex events to simple and highly abstract mechanics (the difference between HP / XP mechanics and strict class differences in a principle level are often just certain ambiguity on in-game lore details and intense approximation, i.e. soldiers are usually better shooters than seamstresses, even if nothing intrinsically prevents a seamstress from being a better shooter. So class-rules should reflect these type of averages, in expanse of variety, exceptions and details, thus a priori restrictions).

 

I picked those two, because despite their internal consistency and universality, they tend to occasionally produce oddities and counterproductive results to their intent, which sometimes break the in-game lore, in very similar manner as class restrictions.

 

As an example about HPs and trauma, many old school fantasy RPGs (D&D, Runequest, Stormbringer, etc)  have an odd relation between HP pools of your typical NPC commoners / peasants, and strength and DMG of some common domesticated animals, like horses.  Little depending on a game, but usually a mortality rate of a landed horse kick for an average commoner was something between 50-100% (like if I recall right, in D&D commoners have ~4 HPs, and horse's kick hits them 55% and does 1d6+1 / 1d4+1 DMG, and horses do two kicks per round). Naturally this doesn't reflect at all of what a kind of world games are trying to represent, despite that a horse kick obviously sometimes can be fatal. Tweaking DMG or HP might give a more believable situation between these two subjects, but usually when you fix one leak like this, an another appears between either of these and some other subject. Ad hoc rules and duct tape with something this specific rarely work, and lead to different sort of problems.

 

A system simple as RPG rules almost categorically are, cannot produce all different variety and detail 100% believably or consistently, when the scale is everything from humans, rats to huge mythological beasts like dragons. 
 

 

1st edition AD&D contained extensive rules relating to construction, and each different material had its own saving throw table. Is it a wooden structure? Save vs. Fire. Oh, it was a Fireball? Save vs. Magical Fire......snip

 

Sorry for the confusion, but by the fireball and buildings comparison I was referring to CRPGs based on AD&D, e.g. Baldur's Gate 1&2. Not the AD&D tabletop system itself, which indeed has rules for setting buildings on fire (along with rules for everything else really, not always as written but by a DM's proxy), which understandably are not incorporated to any video game. Or at least ones I've played. Presumably even if they are used in some games, technical limitations would force them to be only partially applied and be heavily scripted as part of preset encounters, unlike in the tabletop. The point was to demonstrate that finding these unexplained inconsistencies between a lore and gameplay tends to be a bottomless bog in just about any CRPG.

 

Evaluating or comparing these individually can rarely give out much except something along with following lines: 1) I think this is bad, nonsensical and immersion breaking. 2) most people find this is bad, nonsensical and immersion breaking. 3) this is worse, more nonsensical and immersion breaking than X, because (insert subjective and often anecdotical arguments - almost always related to signaling writer's taste, cleverness, knowledge, or affection to some game/company/genre/interest group/ideology/etc). Still almost objectively some flaws are more harmful than others, but dissecting and analyzing individual parts with any kind of reliability and reproducibility seems to be permanently out of reach. I am thinking that at the point when and if it isn't, bots can produce creative content equal or superior to peoples'. 

 

If the lore consistency and inexplicableness are only problems, why is magic-users' unexplained inability to use certain weapons so bothering, but not very selectively affecting fire. In my mind this requires more preferences than just the desire for consistency and clarity. Something like the following statement: "all player characters should be able to use any weapons or learn any kind of skills, unless provided explicit in-game reason against". How "true" this statement is, or how good RPGs would come by following it, is a different discussion altogether. Unless the intention is to justify or promote one's preferences by pointing out "stupidities" selectively (class limitations are stupid. Look why can't a mage use a long sword or an engineer incendiary rounds. That makes no sense, thus classless system is superior).

 

The whole "mages cannot use certain weapons" is a bit more complicated in the tabletop though. How BG handles the issue is just an interpretation of the said somewhat vague rule. My educated guess is that this was entirely consequent of trying to implement the rule-set to a new and vastly different environment, other factors like the lore consistency probably didn't weight much into the decision, which I assume was considered to be a minuscule detail.  I've encountered at least 3 different ways to operationalize these weapons restriction rules in-game (one is my own, two others by two other GMs I've played AD&D with).  All them along with BG's one are equally valid, but each of them produce slightly different albeit similar results (one of my friend's was somewhat similar to your example of L.E. Modesitt's ChaosWar books). BG offers the simplest and most arbitrary solution: you just can't, which would be consider bad DMing by most. I was bothered by many things in BG (especially in the first one), but this never bothered me slightest. I guess, I have different expectations and standards between different mediums, even if both are called RPGs. 

 

 

I follow the reasoning wherever it leads.

 

Reasoning scheasoning. That stuff can lead you into strange places. Now after reading your replies, I don't exactly find a problem in your deductions, but your starting points for those deductions, basic assumptions and preferences seem to be quite different from mine, so I doubt that this conversation can progress much more than this.Was a pleasure :)


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#149
Mikael_Sebastia

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Those work, though, because they lay out, in advance, all of the restrictions that bind the players. The players know exactly what they can't do, so they can avoid constructing characters who would do them.

CRPGs never do this. They never explain, before character creation, what assumptions they've made for the player character. Until they start, they need do be more simulationist.

Too often, CRPGs are made to be played, like any other video game. And that's a problem. RPGs are something to be played with or played in. I maintain that the players' preferences should never directly affect the player character's behaviour. Roleplaying involves acting as someone else, from their point of view, acting as they would. When you make a decision for your character that would would rather the character not make, but you know that character's personality requires it, then you know you're roleplaying.

Those indie games you linked are terrific for that.

 

I agree and even surprisingly to myself, I don't have much to add to this.

 

My one concern with the more narrative-focused rulesets is that the GM has too much discretion to determine outcomes. I would rather my success or failure ultimately be determined by a dice roll than the GM just saying yea or nay.

 

That is quite understandable. Most "gamist"-orientated roleplayers have similar concerns about narrative driven games.  Although, there are some awesome diceless systems, which in all other regards are close to old school games. Like one which I particularly like is Stalker RPG by Burger games (based on the novel Roadside Picnic by Arkady and Boris Stugatsky). In case you happen to be interested, here's a link to a Youtube review, which explains the diceless Flow-system in more detail.


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#150
Cheviot

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Ammo powers becoming weapon mods would make sense, and it would be great if you could (maybe after unlocking a passive or something) combine ammo types to produce new effects.