82 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord of War]

Qunari society has proved again and again that it is entirely incompatible with the rest of Thedas's civilizations and states. The Qunari call for the conquest and complete cultural dissolution of all that are not them, wage brutal wars to make this a reality, maintain an extensive and hostile spy ring (that very recently tried to assassinate most of Southern Thedas's leadership), and don't even have a real conception of international law. This doesn't even go into the atrocities they commit against their own people (brainwashing, Saarebas, etc). So the question is, how can they be made palatable? How can they enter into Thedas's "international community" without losing everything they are?

 

At the very least, these are steps that must be taken:

 

1. They must be made to leave Seheron, where an independent government will be established.

2. Par Vollen needs to be occupied and quarantined, but hopefully not by an Exalted March.

3. The Antaam, the Ben-Hassrath, and the position of Arishok must be abolished.

4. They are no longer allowed to keep mages, they will be sent South until the concept and creation of Saarebas is renounced.

5. No more brainwashing. If a Qunari wants to leave the Qun, it will be legal.

6. Ultimately, the establishment of a secular government on Par Vollen, while the Qunari organization transitions to a more Chantry-like role.

[nightscrawl]

^ Pretty interesting concept for a thread. I think you've got a good basis, but can you elaborate more on #6? I suppose I'm having the most trouble with "secular" combined with "Chantry-like." The very basis for the Chantry's power is rooted in religion, so I don't think it can exist alongside a secular government? Hence my confusion.

[Lord of War]

Chantry-like as in no longer directly ruling. Despite all the Chantry's, ah, indulgences, it doesn't directly rule over anyone (besides mages in the Circles, maybe). I think the Qunari religion can exist, not as a government in it's own right, but as a stable support for a new state.

 

Obviously I don't want it to be too much like the Chantry, the new government shouldn't be able to be bullied by the Qunari religion, but getting rid of it entirely is unfeasible and immoral, I think.

[MisterJB]

Kill them all.

No middle grounds, no debates, no conversions, no surrenders, no appeals.

Qunari, human, elf, dwarf, doesn't matter. Kill. Them. All.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Qunari society has proved again and again that it is entirely incompatible with the rest of Thedas's civilizations and states. The Qunari call for the conquest and complete cultural dissolution of all that are not them, wage brutal wars to make this a reality, maintain an extensive and hostile spy ring (that very recently tried to assassinate most of Southern Thedas's leadership), and don't even have a real conception of international law. This doesn't even go into the atrocities they commit against their own people (brainwashing, Saarebas, etc). So the question is, how can they be made palatable? How can they enter into Thedas's "international community" without losing everything they are?

 

At the very least, these are steps that must be taken:

 

1. They must be made to leave Seheron, where an independent government will be established.

2. Par Vollen needs to be occupied and quarantined, but hopefully not by an Exalted March.

3. The Antaam, the Ben-Hassrath, and the position of Arishok must be abolished.

4. They are no longer allowed to keep mages, they will be sent South until the concept and creation of Saarebas is renounced.

5. No more brainwashing. If a Qunari wants to leave the Qun, it will be legal.

6. Ultimately, the establishment of a secular government on Par Vollen, while the Qunari organization transitions to a more Chantry-like role.

 

I vote for 3, 5, 6.

 

Remove the Qun Triumvirate, allow the Qunari people to be free and let them establish a secular government on Par Vollen while the Tome of Koslun becomes something that is strictly philosophical.

[MisterJB]

Now, how to fix Tevinter?

[Medhia_Nox]

So, we want to destroy the Qunari because the Qunari want to destroy everyone else?

 

Sound reasoning.

[Lord of War]

I vote for 3, 5, 6.

 

Remove the Qun Triumvirate, allow the Qunari people to be free and let them establish a secular government on Par Vollen while the Tome of Koslun becomes something that is strictly philosophical.

 

I think belief is easier to adjust than it is to do away with. I don't like the idea of forcing this on the Qunari, but it's hard to see reform come any other way, especially with their empire on the warpath and in it's ascendancy. They have no reason to change without some kind of major shake up.

 

 

Now, how to fix Tevinter?

 

That's not the point of this topic. If you have ideas on that, feel free to post your own.

[Lord of War]

So, we want to destroy the Qunari because the Qunari want to destroy everyone else?

 

Sound reasoning.

 

No, I don't want to see them destroyed, I just want to see their beliefs...tempered? How to do this is an open question, at the moment I don't see a better way than war. Reform isn't going to come from within for a long time.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lord of War:  So, you're impatient? 

The only thing that ever works is "reform" - change must come from the culture, not an outside force.  

 

Yes, repel the Qunari advances... never, EVER make deals with them - never trust them... etc. 

 

But a war of aggression will 1) Never defeat the Qunari 2)  Will never succeed in changing the Qunari. 

 

A war of aggression will only prove to calcify their beliefs.  

[Lord of War]

That's not necessarily true. Frankly, the Qunari are a hostile rogue state to the rest of Thedas. They are a danger to the rest of world and to their own population, and imposed reform can work if done right. See Japan and Germany today.

[MisterJB]

Done right? You are aware of what the Allies and the Red Army did to Germany, right?

The massacres, the mass rapes, the unceasing bombings of civillian areas for days.

Sure, it worked to the extent that Germany is an ocuppied nation to this day but I daresay the German people would disagree with your suggestion that it was "right".

[Beerfish]

They would never willingly go for these type of changes at all and would most likely fight to the death on a number of these issues.  The military conflicts with them have gone on for a long time.  Best try and undermine their societies by more subtle means.  Try and get more Qunari fighting other Qunari by means of propaganda campaigns. 

 

Also time to learn a lot more about them, as in where they have actually come from in the first place.

[Lord of War]

That's true, I'm honestly not sure we know enough about them to effectively wage any kind of propaganda campaign, let alone inciting ideological civil wars. Finding some kind of internal, existing reformist faction and supporting them would be ideal, though.

 

Done right? You are aware of what the Allies and the Red Army did to Germany, right?

The massacres, the mass rapes, the unceasing bombings of civillian areas for days.

Sure, it worked to the extent that Germany is an ocuppied nation to this day but I daresay the German people would disagree with your suggestion that it was "right".

 

I would also ask if they would have preferred continued Nazi rule.

[raging_monkey]

The qunari are fine maybe it's thedas that had issues with them. Asking for reform is asking for a wet burrito, you get your burrito but it's disgusting. The writers will do what they will trust that you will get your money's worth at the least

[Bayonet Hipshot]

@Lord of War:  So, you're impatient? 

The only thing that ever works is "reform" - change must come from the culture, not an outside force.  

 

Yes, repel the Qunari advances... never, EVER make deals with them - never trust them... etc. 

 

But a war of aggression will 1) Never defeat the Qunari 2)  Will never succeed in changing the Qunari. 

 

A war of aggression will only prove to calcify their beliefs.  

 

Also ban them from entering mainland Thedas until there are sufficient vetting methods.

[The Baconer]

It's probably more realistic to just keep them contained to Par Vollen. Push them out of Rivain and Seheron, and enforce naval disarmament.

You're not occupying Par Vollen without an Exalted March. Might as well just go full bore at that point.

[Aliceeverafter]

Enforced change - you follow what's happening in the news lately? Not sure this is viable or sustainable. Change has to come from within but as the convo with that elf in Inquisition shows, a lot of people in the Qun are pretty happy.

Also I'm sure they don't want to enter the international community of Thedas, unless it's on their own terms, though that they were willing to ally with the Inquisition against Corypheus might be the start of movement to be players in the community, so maybe it's baby steps and sanctions?

Though sanctions themselves are a good way of uniting a people against the perceived agressors.

Very tricky question and re the saarebas, in DA2, the mage commits suicide, so chooses to live by the Qun. You can't 'free' people who don't want to be 'freed'.

Interesting thoughts

[Medhia_Nox]

We're all aware the map "ends" at Par Vollen?  We have no idea how extensive the Qunari are in the lands beyond. 

 

How would ships even form a beachhead on Par Vollen?  The Qunari dreadnoughts... coupled with canons on the shore... coupled with the freaking Qunari would make an invasion a hilariously bad idea. 

[MisterJB]

I would also ask if they would have preferred continued Nazi rule.

Well, you know what they say:

"You can't make an omelet without raping an estimated million women."

[Lord of War]

Well, you know what they say:

"You can't make an omelet without raping an estimated million women."

 

Christ, you know I'm not saying to warcrime it up all over Par Vollen. The model I'm mainly looking at the post-war denazification, but I'd rather drop the comparison altogether if you're really going to do this. It's veering dangerously close Nazi apologism.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

We're all aware the map "ends" at Par Vollen?  We have no idea how extensive the Qunari are in the lands beyond. 

 

How would ships even form a beachhead on Par Vollen?  The Qunari dreadnoughts... coupled with canons on the shore... coupled with the freaking Qunari would make an invasion a hilariously bad idea. 

 

To deal with Qunari efficiently, you need to take a leaf out of Trump's book.

 

1) Build a wall, in this context, an enchanted wall at the border to keep Qunari out. The dwarves can help as well. I'm thinking of something like The Wall in Westeros.

 

2) Ban Qunari from entering mainland Thedas past that wall until we have developed methods to successfully vet them.

 

3) Mainland Theodosian nations should form a pact or a treaty with each other that they would come together as one to take down the Qunari hard if they decide to invade again (kinda like how Trump wants to form an alliance with Russia to take down ISIS)

 

4) Lastly, as Medhia said, when the Qunari invade, drive them back and drive them back hard but never waste our resources invading them. In this sense, the mainland Theodosian nations should treat them the way they treat the Darkspawn and the Blight - When the Darkspawn come out in yuge numbers, people band together and take them down hard. However, don't be stupid to go into the Deep Roads and try to kill all the Darkspawn or something. Orlesian Wardens tried to do that and it backfired on them in Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

Additionally...

 

5) Elect Leliana as Divine Victoria. Her election as Divine results in her opening up the Chantry to all races, all sexes and if she romances a  Hero of Ferelden who is alive, she lets the Chantry members be engaged in romantic relationships. One of the issue with the Qun is that people, specifically non-Humans like Elves are very susceptible to the ideology of the Qun. Now I am no fan of the Chantry but I think the Qun is worse than Andrastianism. Making Andrastianism more appealing for a wider appeal would combat the ideological insidiousness of the Qun and at the same time prevent Elves from joining Solas in some ridiculous quest to bring about the Theodosian Apocalypse.

[German Soldier]

Divide et impera 

Qunari seem to be a cohesive culture unlike Thedas which is composed by a series of belligerent nations who hate each other.

The qunari will never be invaded because Theodosians are not united in the first place.

They are technologically more advanced  physically stronger and more disciplined not to mention that we don't even know how big their lands are.

[MisterJB]

Christ, you know I'm not saying to warcrime it up all over Par Vollen. The model I'm mainly looking at the post-war denazification, but I'd rather drop the comparison altogether if you're really going to do this. It's veering dangerously close Nazi apologism.

I don't particularly care what you say we should do to the people living in Par Vollen because it's a fictional place; heck, I've suggested killing them all.

However, Germany is not and it is not Nazi apologism to say that the "denazification" you are referring to involved turning German cities into ruins, bombing them for days without need; it involved the rape of hundreds of thousands, possibly a million German women; it involved forced relocations, etc.

These are facts and suggesting someone may be a Nazi because they don't believe the Germans, as a whole, deserved this, does not make them any less factual.

[veeia]

Interesting topic!

 

Strict interpretation of Andrastrian philosophy and the Qun seem to be completely incompatible as Andrastrians believe the Chant must be said from all corners of the world, while the Qunari believe that converting the world is a demand of the Qun.  I would say at this point in history, the Qun's imperative is stronger than Andrastrian society, but Andrastrian society has conquered more and already has had to learn how to balance regional issues and politics because of its relative stability, while the Qun is in a state of constant warfare.

 

Therefore I'd think both societies would need to be convinced of the value of putting religious values aside in order to establish political/social stability. That would include concessions on both sides, for example, Andrastrians not demanding some of the things you state in your OP. Simply dismantling everything about the society related to their religion would essentially just be Andrastrian conversion and assimilation. If you want to preserve the Qunari culture and religion (which I think is valuable, I'm not convinced of the inherent superiority of Andrastrian culture or the value of monolith), then eliminating the conditions that create extremism and allow for their strict interpretation of the Qun is probably the best step.  Unfortunately, the problem is that the nation that could do the most with regard to that is divergent in both their interpretation of religion and politics (Tevinter). Fortunately, next game we will probably get to see that situation up close and get a much better understanding of what's going on there. It's fun to speculate, but I don't think I can say with any authority at this point what steps could be taken there.