82 réponses à ce sujet

[The Ascendant]

I believe that after Solas, the Darkspawn, Dragons and Demons, Qunari are the greatest threat to Thedas. We must eradicate the Qun from existence before it eradicates us.

[Lord of War]

Interesting topic!

 

Strict interpretation of Andrastrian philosophy and the Qun seem to be completely incompatible as Andrastrians believe the Chant must be said from all corners of the world, while the Qunari believe that converting the world is a demand of the Qun.  I would say at this point in history, the Qun's imperative is stronger than Andrastrian society, but Andrastrian society has conquered more and already has had to learn how to balance regional issues and politics because of its relative stability, while the Qun is in a state of constant warfare.

 

Therefore I'd think both societies would need to be convinced of the value of putting religious values aside in order to establish political/social stability. That would include concessions on both sides, for example, Andrastrians not demanding some of the things you state in your OP. Simply dismantling everything about the society related to their religion would essentially just be Andrastrian conversion and assimilation. If you want to preserve the Qunari culture and religion (which I think is valuable, I'm not convinced of the inherent superiority of Andrastrian culture or the value of monolith), then eliminating the conditions that create extremism and allow for their strict interpretation of the Qun is probably the best step.  Unfortunately, the problem is that the nation that could do the most with regard to that is divergent in both their interpretation of religion and politics (Tevinter). Fortunately, next game we will probably get to see that situation up close and get a much better understanding of what's going on there. It's fun to speculate, but I don't think I can say with any authority at this point what steps could be taken there.

 

True enough. This is just a thought experiment, really (it's all it can be). I don't really regard Andrastian culture as superior, but they are the only people we see interact with the Qunari, and they are the people most threatened by them. I'd rather not see forced conversions or anything like that, the Qunari giving up on their expansionist goals and focusing inward would be enough. 

 

I'd really like to know about dissent within the Qun, if it's even possible. We've never mid-level member of Qunari society (not military or Ben-Hassrath) who might embrace that sort of thing, and I hope that's eventually corrected.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

To paraphrase "Blah, blah blah, my philosophy/religion/cult/etc... is better than yours so you must change and be like me."

 

The Qunari are fine as they are, it might not be for everyone but, it is a good life for a lot of people. You grew up in one culture, with that set of values and, sense of what is good, right, fair, etc... They are a different culture and much of what the south sees a right, just, fair, is disruptive, harmful, selfish to the Qunari. We just need a closer look a day to day life and the common folk of the Qunari.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

To paraphrase "Blah, blah blah, my philosophy/religion/cult/etc... is better than yours so you must change and be like me."

 

The Qunari are fine as they are, it might not be for everyone but, it is a good life for a lot of people. You grew up in one culture, with that set of values and, sense of what is good, right, fair, etc... They are a different culture and much of what the south sees a right, just, fair, is disruptive, harmful, selfish to the Qunari. We just need a closer look a day to day life and the common folk of the Qunari.

 

How do you know its a good life for a lot of people ? So far we have only heard the perspective of Qunari agents, not the average Qunari and very little Tal-Vashoth perspective. Additionally, if the system is so good, then why are there, according to Iron Bull at least, so many Tal-Vashoths ?

[Lord of War]

The main problems are their massive expansionist aims (along with the forced conversions that will bring) and Ben-Hassrath activity across Thedas (I would also say brainwashing those who don't quite fit and everything about the Saarebas are pretty horrifying too). I want to live and let live with the Qunari, but until they recognize that others have the same right, they're an issue.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Qunari society has proved again and again that it is entirely incompatible with the rest of Thedas's civilizations and states. The Qunari call for the conquest and complete cultural dissolution of all that are not them, wage brutal wars to make this a reality, maintain an extensive and hostile spy ring (that very recently tried to assassinate most of Southern Thedas's leadership), and don't even have a real conception of international law. This doesn't even go into the atrocities they commit against their own people (brainwashing, Saarebas, etc). So the question is, how can they be made palatable? How can they enter into Thedas's "international community" without losing everything they are?

 

At the very least, these are steps that must be taken:

 

1. They must be made to leave Seheron, where an independent government will be established.

2. Par Vollen needs to be occupied and quarantined, but hopefully not by an Exalted March.

3. The Antaam, the Ben-Hassrath, and the position of Arishok must be abolished.

4. They are no longer allowed to keep mages, they will be sent South until the concept and creation of Saarebas is renounced.

5. No more brainwashing. If a Qunari wants to leave the Qun, it will be legal.

6. Ultimately, the establishment of a secular government on Par Vollen, while the Qunari organization transitions to a more Chantry-like role.

I prefer the most effective one as realistic

 

Execute all Tamasrans, the ones who are formulate what Qun is and rule as raise Qun society

 

No Tamasrans-no Qun crap at all

 

Even 1 dreamer with magrallen or elven one can rid from Qun in the heads of kossith and other idiots

[Insaner Robot]

I don't particularly care what you say we should do to the people living in Par Vollen because it's a fictional place; heck, I've suggested killing them all.

However, Germany is not and it is not Nazi apologism to say that the "denazification" you are referring to involved turning German cities into ruins, bombing them for days without need; it involved the rape of hundreds of thousands, possibly a million German women; it involved forced relocations, etc.

These are facts and suggesting someone may be a Nazi because they don't believe the Germans, as a whole, deserved this, does not make them any less factual.

 

I quite often find myself on the same page as you MisterJB. Not this time however, as I must point out that the Luftwaffe caused similar damage to many cities in Britain.

[veeia]

True enough. This is just a thought experiment, really (it's all it can be). I don't really regard Andrastian culture as superior, but they are the only people we see interact with the Qunari, and they are the people most threatened by them. I'd rather not see forced conversions or anything like that, the Qunari giving up on their expansionist goals and focusing inward would be enough. 

 

I'd really like to know about dissent within the Qun, if it's even possible. We've never mid-level member of Qunari society (not military or Ben-Hassrath) who might embrace that sort of thing, and I hope that's eventually corrected.

 

It's a fun thought experiment! I just can't conclude anything specific based on the information we have because I think the conflict between the Imperial Chantry and the Orlesian Chantry as well as the conflict between Tevinter and the Qunari  are key to figuring it out, and so far the details of that are vague and often fed through unreliable narration.

 

I agree I'd like to know more about dissent within the Qun. My feeling is that if it's completely prohibited, that is only sustainable due to extenuating factors (ie their isolation/constant conflict). I don't think its possible for a peaceful government to mostly eradicate dissent, unless that decision was given international support, like for example if they had access to some resources that the rest of Thedas wanted, which doesn't seem to be the case. But there must be people within the Qun who feel that expansionism/conquest is not the answer, and that the rigidity of adherence to it actually contradicts the writings (which talk about knowledge of complexity and balance) I think there's potential for some fascinating divergent sects within it.

 

At this point our view of their society is very limited, so I'm excited to see where it goes. I hope Bioware doesn't go in such a direction where some measure of peace and cooperation can only be achieved if you impose Andrastrian values on to them, because that seems like a less interesting option and ultimately not one that guarantees lasting peace or fairness unless they are brought into society as equals which seems unlikely, given the treatment of the elves.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

How do you know its a good life for a lot of people ? So far we have only heard the perspective of Qunari agents, not the average Qunari and very little Tal-Vashoth perspective. Additionally, if the system is so good, then why are there, according to Iron Bull at least, so many Tal-Vashoths ?

Why are there so many ex Christians of any domination, Ex Jews, Ex Muslims, etc.... 100% of any group is not going to be happy with what they were raised as. me for  example, I am a ex christian. I was raised as one, baptized and all but, I am not a christian now, I'm Pagan. I have my own personal reasons for finding flaws and faults in Christianity that I cannot accept so, it isn't right for me but, that doesn't mean it needs to change, just means i am one of a large number of people who were raised christian but, grew up and decided it wasn't for them.

 

Same for the Qunari, just because some raised in it do not like it does not mean it needs to change.

[Captain Wiseass]

The Qunari system has its flaws, but the solution to those flaws probably has to come from within the system, rather than some kind of externally forced cultural revolution. That rarely ends well.

[Nixou]

Are we really going to have a bunch of threads like that? "The Qunari/Orlesians/Elves/Whatever are violent, evil barbarians who deserve to be subjugated/ethnically cleansed/forcibly converted but I don't have any chip on the shoulder about come real-world's population and I'm most definitely trying to project my own animosity onto a video game?"

[roselavellan]

To paraphrase "Blah, blah blah, my philosophy/religion/cult/etc... is better than yours so you must change and be like me."

 

The Qunari are fine as they are, it might not be for everyone but, it is a good life for a lot of people. You grew up in one culture, with that set of values and, sense of what is good, right, fair, etc... They are a different culture and much of what the south sees a right, just, fair, is disruptive, harmful, selfish to the Qunari. We just need a closer look a day to day life and the common folk of the Qunari.

 

They may be fine as they are (though even that is arguable, as the number of Tal Vashoth shows), but that assumes that they are willing to live in peace next to the other Thedosian states, in which case there would probably be no real need for compromise. But we know there are signs that the Qunari intend to conquer Thedas, so unless Thedas intends to succumb to the Qun, I don't see how both sides living in peace can be an option.

[Lord of War]

Are we really going to have a bunch of threads like that? "The Qunari/Orlesians/Elves/Whatever are violent, evil barbarians who deserve to be subjugated/ethnically cleansed/forcibly converted but I don't have any chip on the shoulder about come real-world's population and I'm most definitely trying to project my own animosity onto a video game?"

 

I'd rather none of that happened, though? The excesses of the Qunari regime need to be reigned in, but if they're willing to actually live and let live (and evidence is pointing to "no"), that would be fine.

[Illegitimus]

How do you know its a good life for a lot of people ? So far we have only heard the perspective of Qunari agents, not the average Qunari and very little Tal-Vashoth perspective. Additionally, if the system is so good, then why are there, according to Iron Bull at least, so many Tal-Vashoths ?

 

I'd be more impressed with the number of Tal-Vashoth if human civilization wasn't swarming with bandits, mobsters, blood mages and maniacs.  

[veeia]

Are we really going to have a bunch of threads like that? "The Qunari/Orlesians/Elves/Whatever are violent, evil barbarians who deserve to be subjugated/ethnically cleansed/forcibly converted but I don't have any chip on the shoulder about come real-world's population and I'm most definitely trying to project my own animosity onto a video game?"

 

Eh, while I agree that the steps outlined by the OP are extreme and could be the words of someone who wants to have a thread like that, their primary question about how to integrate the Qunari into the international community without having them lose their culture is very interesting and their willingness to discuss other ways to facilitate that beyond their original suggestion tells me that it's not designed to be one of those threads at least, so I think that's a bit unfair.

[raging_monkey]

Eh, while I agree that the steps outlined by the OP are extreme and could be the words of someone who wants to have a thread like that, their primary question about how to integrate the Qunari into the international community without having them lose their culture is very interesting and their willingness to discuss other ways to facilitate that beyond their original suggestion tells me that it's not designed to be one of those threads at least, so I think that's a bit unfair.

All leads to the same suggestion and path. Bsn is required to be on some extreme

[Bayonet Hipshot]

They may be fine as they are (though even that is arguable, as the number of Tal Vashoth shows), but that assumes that they are willing to live in peace next to the other Thedosian states, in which case there would probably be no real need for compromise. But we know there are signs that the Qunari intend to conquer Thedas, so unless Thedas intends to succumb to the Qun, I don't see how both sides living in peace can be an option.

 

THIS. QFT !

 

The Qun has no interest of living in peace or in harmony with those that are not part of the Qun. This has been true since the very first game. It is their mandate, the nature of their collective culture, their ideological tenets that they engage in violent wars as well as subversive methods including chemical warfare to convert any and all peoples of Thedas to the philosophy of the Qun in order to achieve some form of ridiculous Qun utopia.

 

When you have someone who wants to kill you, who only makes peace treaties as a form of pretension and to build up their military strength so they can go to war again, you do not sit there and naively hope for peace. No, what you do is you stay vigilant, you impose strict laws that limit these people from moving around your lands, you have strong borders, you conduct strong counter espionage to root out Ben-Hassrath like Tallis and put them in prison for life or banish them and most importantly, you provide an alternative philosophical or faith for the average Theodosian to adopt so the Qun does not win the ideological and philosophical warfare.
 

[veeia]

All leads to the same suggestion and path. Bsn is required to be on some extreme

 

Lmao, true. but you can usually get in a few good discussions if you either get in early, late, or just ignore the raging inferno around you.  Trying to have good discussions while people do their thing is just part of the charm of posting here. I prob have more patience to try because I've been gone for awhile, tbh.

 

p.s., hey!! glad to see you're still around

[raging_monkey]

Lmao, true. but you can usually get in a few good discussions if you either get in early, late, or just ignore the raging inferno around you. Trying to have good discussions while people do their thing is just part of the charm of posting here. I prob have more patience to try because I've been gone for awhile, tbh.

p.s., hey!! glad to see you're still around

also true

And good to see you too missed ya. And who else keeps batshat fans in check

[Daerog]

The Qun is pretty totalitarian, from what I recall. It's not just a spiritual organization with some flexibility (see the various Thedas nations in favor of the Chantry).

To deny the way mages are treated in the Qun is to deny the Qun. To say the Qun needs to be revised is to say the Qun isn't Truth.

Now, maybe one can reinterpret the Qun, but that requires knowledge of the Qun.

Maybe they can do without military expansion... but if it is dictated by the Qun, then it is dictated.

Is it possible for reforms to work with the Qun? Can one be a communist and still hold private property?

To change the Qunari may result in ending the Qun, directly or indirectly.

They could take some wisdom from the Qun and develop a new philosophy, like New Yevon in FFX, but it wouldn't be the Qun anymore.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I quite often find myself on the same page as you MisterJB. Not this time however, as I must point out that the Luftwaffe caused similar damage to many cities in Britain.

Just because one nation's military did that doesn't mean the civilian population of that nation, who have no input in military action, should have the same done to them.

[Qun00]

It is you who needs to be fixed, bas.

[Illegitimus]

Qunari society has proved again and again that it is entirely incompatible with the rest of Thedas's civilizations and states. The Qunari call for the conquest and complete cultural dissolution of all that are not them, wage brutal wars to make this a reality, maintain an extensive and hostile spy ring (that very recently tried to assassinate most of Southern Thedas's leadership), and don't even have a real conception of international law. This doesn't even go into the atrocities they commit against their own people (brainwashing, Saarebas, etc). So the question is, how can they be made palatable? How can they enter into Thedas's "international community" without losing everything they are?

 

At the very least, these are steps that must be taken:

 

1. They must be made to leave Seheron, where an independent government will be established.

2. Par Vollen needs to be occupied and quarantined, but hopefully not by an Exalted March.

3. The Antaam, the Ben-Hassrath, and the position of Arishok must be abolished.

4. They are no longer allowed to keep mages, they will be sent South until the concept and creation of Saarebas is renounced.

5. No more brainwashing. If a Qunari wants to leave the Qun, it will be legal.

6. Ultimately, the establishment of a secular government on Par Vollen, while the Qunari organization transitions to a more Chantry-like role.

 

Actually none of those things are steps.  They fit more into the category of "unenforceable demands" or "unachieveable ambitions"

[9TailsFox]

[Gervaise]

The suggestions that you are making OP essentially mean the Qun is no longer the Qun.    The Qun exists largely because the people within it accept the limitations in return for what they see as a fair and equal society.     There are those within the system who do not see it as perfect and want reform.   Look at Gatt or Tallis.   Both of them questioned aspects of the Qun and both claimed the only way for things to improve was for them to stick with it rather than leave.   It was probably no coincidence that both these characters were elves, who had been slaves under Tevinter, but the elves who defected from the alienage in Kirkwall and across Thedas would probably say the same.   The reason we hate the Qun is because we are outsiders who do not experience any of the benefits that those who have embraced it feel.    You have to remember that Kosslun originally came up with his philosophy because he was seeking to built a better society for all.  He allegedly crossed the world searching for a society without hopelessness or despair, where one set of people were not happy and free at the expense of others.  On the whole there is less crime and a fairer distribution of wealth in Par Vollen.  However, there may well still be hopelessness and despair among some of its citizens; certainly if it was so wonderful you would never have Tal Vashoth.  Never having read his tome, for all we know some of the more extreme measures that they have subsequently come up with, like leashing Saarabas and filling dissidents with qamek, may never have been part of his ideas.    After all Andraste only ever taught that mages should not abuse their power and serve the community; Circles did not exist in her time, nor the Rite of Tranquility, so how do we know she would have approved of these things?

 

In order to defeat the Qun you really have to offer a better alternative that allows both the majority of people to live without fear of being abused by those in power and allows minorities, like mages, to exist without having their liberties curtailed in the way that they are in the Qun.  You need to allow elves to break out of the alienages and be something more than slaves in all but name to the majority of human societies.    I personally don't like any of the Governments in Thedas because no matter where you are there is a ruling elite who abuse their power.    However, Rivain seems to have come up with something of a compromise situation where Chantry, Rivaini seers, Qunari and Dalish are able to live in close proximity and relative harmony, but that was only after years of bloodshed and a peace treaty to end it.     Without the threat of Par Vollen, it is likely this would have not endured so long.

 

The Qun probably control most of the northern islands.   They certainly have a colony in the western mainland on the edge of the Donnarks.    Trying to eradicate them from all of these would be nigh on impossible.    Personally I would just opt for insisting on no further aggression on the mainland on their part and a withdrawal from Seheron by both the Qun and Tevinter.     However, without an independent organisation to enforce this, I can't see this happening in the near future.     The Inquisition could have been such an organisation but sadly not any more, since neither the Qun, nor Tevinter, would acknowledge the authority of the Divine's private peace keeping force.     I have to admit that prior to DAI I thought the Inquisition was being mooted as a sort of Jedi organisation, which would have been separate from any other religious organisation or secular power but as Dorian said, with it led by the Herald of Andraste and formed by writ of the Divine, it was always going to appear simply a stooge of the south.