28 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Greetings,

I have been wondering, between the Dalish Elves and Human Commoners, which group have a better life ? For the purposes of this comparison, I am strictly focusing on non-Mage Dalish Elves since non-Mage Humans either get taken to a Circle of Magi in other places or live like nobility in Tevinter. There is too much variance so this comparison is strictly focused on the non-mage peoples in both groups.

So which one of them lead a better quality of life ? The Dalish Elves are more skilled and more capable at fighting but they do not have a permanent home and therefore are faced with more dangers. There's also the fact that they are discriminated by many Humans. Lifespan wise, I am not sure how long the average non-Mage Dalish Elf live though or whether they are susceptible to diseases or not. Anyone has any info on that ?

On the other hand, Human Commoners have the advantage of living in one place but except for successful traders, most of them lead a harsh life of back-breaking work with little creature comforts. Lifespan wise, most Humans even the Human Nobility has to deal with crippling diseases like cholera and not get medical treatment. For example, the Amells, Lord Aristide and Lady Bethann, were stricken with cholera died so I guess for the commoners it would be worse.

So between the two groups, who do you think would lead a better quality of life ?

[Melyanna]

I think the quality of life for Dalish elves would be very different depending on where they are living: if they manage to find a nice place to settle with their aravels, for a decent amount of time, I think their life could be pretty good. With enough food sources and shelter, they would have to work hard, but in a simple society where hard work is rewarding and there is no "upper class" to abuse them.

However, a commoner in a small village or town could have a better life than a Dalish elf in camp that has little resources and is not sheltered.
It also depends on what you mean for "commoner", I think.

[Abyss108]

I think it completely depends on the person and their specific situation. Some commoners will lead great lives, make a decent living, and live in clean villages and under kind Nobles. Others may have nothing, be unable to make a living, have cruel Nobles, terrible illnesses, etc. Some Elves may live in safe forests, near villages that don't discriminate against them and trade, and enjoy a nomadic live. Others may hate that lack of comfort, or not knowing what will happen in the future, be attacked from humans wherever they go, be forced into a role in the clan they don't like due to lack of numbers, live in dangerous areas, etc.

[veeia]

Both are effectively disenfranchised because their quality of life depends mostly on the whims of others and their power to influence that is limited. If the local humans don't pursue the Dalish aggressively, they're able to have a much more stable enviornment, and if the local governments support their citizens, the human commoners are better off.

 

My guess would be that individual human commoners have more potential to improve their station, while Dalish elves are more likely to start from a better position. What I mean by that is that a particularly talented or resourceful human might be able to lift themselves out of crushing poverty into a relatively comfortable life, but a Dalish elf is probably more likely to already be in a position where they at least have access to the resources they need.

[thats1evildude]

It's a hard life either way.

 

The Dalish have more fighting skill, but their smaller numbers make them more desirable prey for bandits and monsters, and they have to deal with prejudice from humans. They're also dependant on what they can forage.

 

The humans have more stability, but they also struggle with food shortages during droughts and the like, and they are preyed upon by the nobility. Nobody tries to press gang the Dalish or burn their fields when an opposing army invades.

[Gervaise]

I think generally it is pretty much about equal if you are just looking at the overall standard of living.   The Dalish life can be harsh, particularly in the winter, when you have to rely pretty much on what game the hunters can bring home, but then again the survival of the average human peasant is going to depend how good that season's harvest has been for getting you through the winter.    The Dalish overall probably suffer less from diseases provided they steer clear of human settlements.   The problem for them would be getting resistant to strains of illness that started among the Dalish and then coming into contact with something new they pick up from humans, against which they are vulnerable.    This could then spread through their ranks rather quickly.   Hygiene overall is likely to be better out in the wilds where you aren't constantly in contact with the effluent of the streets and have regular access to running water, that should be fairly clean provided you keep the halla down stream.

 

The main advantage the Dalish have over human villagers is that they are answerable to no one but themselves.    So long as their scouts are good, they can probably steer clear of the worst humans and in any case I would imagine they are taught how to defend themselves from a young age.    Human villagers are ultimately under the control of their overlords, who will demand taxes and whatever else they take a fancy to. If they fight back, they will be considered the ones in the wrong, plus they aren't likely to have received much training in arms in the first place.   The majority of refugees in DAI seemed pretty incapable of defending themselves or fending for themselves when driven off their land. 

 

In Orlais Chevaliers are allowed to do pretty much as they please and are infamous for their brutality with those of commoner rank, over whom they hold absolute power.    It states in World of Thedas 1 that the lower Orlesian classes fear them as much as the nobility adore them.   That side of their nature has been played down since DAO, with the only real example of their brutality being in Masked Empire, when they train their recruits by setting them loose on defenceless elves in the alienages.   However, back in DAO we met a human commoner in the market in Denerim, who would have been raped by a Chevalier had her brother not stopped him; then they were forced to flee his retribution.   Loghain also recounts how when he was young, he witnessed a Chevalier beat a poor farmer to death for some triviality that had offended him.    That sort of power of life and death that nobles have over human peasants is what the Dalish are largely able to avoid.

[LightningPoodle]

Elves (yuck) probably have it better. Humans live in permanent places and in the setting, they don't really have a huge amount of hygiene going for them. There would be pests, disease... hardship. They live on coin, and many have little to rub together. Many wouldn't get three decent meals a day. Clothing would be little more than rags. Their homes probably leak as well, and are more than likely small and cramped. Not only that, but the vast majority are going to be looking out for themselves. There isn't a huge community effort among human populations.

The Dalish, yes they have to keep moving but everyone of them is taught how to fight. Danger isn't a huge issue. They don't stand the risk of attracting pests because they don't have permanent residence. If beasts start getting close, they simply have to move away again. They also live off the land. Few go hungry. The Dalish have a community effort in all things. Everyone helps everyone.

-

Can't believe I picked the Elves. I feel sick to my stomach now.

[Xerrai]

It really depends.

Commoners stuck under a particular lord may find thier lives harder or easier depending on how the rule.

Similarly, the Dalish are by and large dependent on the area around them and are highly dependent on what the environment/hunters can bring them.

But overall I think the Dalish have it harder. It will not matter how much survival skill they have when nature decides to give them a run of bad luck, and human prejudice has lead to the dissolution/death of entire clans on more than one occasion. A great deal of thier survival is based on luck or staying out of the way.

That is not to say human commoners don't have it hard. They In a way they too are reliant on luck (good lord, good/bad crops for the season) but a great deal of them (particularly the ones in large cities) have one unwitting advantage that the Dalish do not--alienege elves. If availible, human nobles will be more prone to oppressing them instead of human commoners because it's more socially acceptable. This is not applicable to human commoners on the countryside or in cities where there are few elves to begin with, but a great deal of human commoners do nonetheless reside in cities that also have alieneges.

[Beerfish]

Well the human commoners don't have idiotic keepers consorting with demons time and again so that is a big advantage. 

 

The above comment aside it totally depends on ones station in each group?  Some human commoners are happy and wealthy and doing fine others not doing so well.  I would imagine the same with Dalish.

[Cyrus Amell]

The things that typify a Dalish clan such as the need to travel, forage and keep to themselves create limited boundaries for social advancement and achievement but offer more stability (however bleak) compared to what a human commoner might expect. This is common among all tight knit communities, although it comes with some serious drawbacks.
 

The term "Human Commoners" runs the gamut from dirt poor to middle class tradesmen. It is therefore difficult to compare the two groups. A human commoner in Tevinter tries to keep ahead of slavery while a human commoner in Orlais tries to avoid the wrath of chevaliers. With the Dalish there is an assumed cultural heritage and clan structure. With human commoners there is no such thing.

 

So, it depends. A human blacksmith will potentially have greater prospects for advancement than a Dalish huntsman ever will. A human beggar will be worse off than even the most lean Dalish elf who still has a clan and the chance to find more food.

 

For my money, I would say the Dalish have it worse than Human Commoners on average. As outcasts, the Dalish are restricted to only a few choices in the face of adversity. Human Commoners, if they have the right skills, can potentially better their lot in life through hard work and some luck.

[AutumnWitch]

I think it depends on what you mean by "better". Its easy to say that the Dalish "savages" have a tougher life because they live off the land, are nomads and are preyed upon by the humans (and others). They are treated horrible by others and live and die at nature's whim.

 

That being said, very little has been devoted to finding out how happy they are doing what they do. We have seen in both DAO/DA2 that the culture invokes a very strong sense of togetherness,shared interests/religion and support. Women there live a life comparable to men and seem to be as happy as their male counterparts. They have a shared culture and generally like being together. There seems to be very little oppression within their clans and most of the time when there is (Merrill) it's done out of the best interest of the clan as a whole.

 

This reminds me a lot of the tails of the first Europeans living in North America. The Natives were considered savages and backwards (at the time) but there are many stories of Europeans (esp women) leaving their culture to be with the Natives (or being captured and given the opportunity to go back and refusing) as it was less oppressive and a generally happier existence. 

 

I think if I was a very poor, young peasant woman in the streets of some cold town like Ferleden, Orlais or other places, the ideal of living like the Dalish would sound very appealing. Now if I was some middle class daughter of the local baker or cobbler it might be different. So it's a very relative question.

[GreaterGoodIreland]

Dalish obviously.

 

They're not conscripted into wars, they're not taxed into oblivion, they're not preyed upon sexually by chevaliers or banns, their way of life lends itself to healthier living in terms of diet, healthcare and hygiene.

 

Only thing a commoner might have over the Dalish is that s/he can become rich via trade, if s/he's lucky or really really good. That's not even most people though. Most just remain ignorant peasants or urban workers.

[Almostfaceman]

Dalish obviously.

 

They're not conscripted into wars, they're not taxed into oblivion, they're not preyed upon sexually by chevaliers or banns, their way of life lends itself to healthier living in terms of diet, healthcare and hygiene.

 

Only thing a commoner might have over the Dalish is that s/he can become rich via trade, if s/he's lucky or really really good. That's not even most people though. Most just remain ignorant peasants or urban workers.

 

There's nothing obvious about it. The misery is spread all over the place. No taxes? No safety. Not preyed upon sexually by chevaliers or banns? Wrong, they're preyed upon by both and not just sexually, they're hunted like animals. Better diet? They're subject to the whims of the hunting gods and can starve along with everyone else. Better healthcare? They're exposed to the elements more often, the extremes would shorten lifespans as readily as being cooped up with large groups of humans. Hygiene? You think they cart around portable showers? 

 

No, the life of a nomad isn't easy, clean, or safe and it certainly isn't made easier living in lands where the dominant cultures are hostile to your existence. 

 

It's a mixed bag all around, both camps are miserable. 

[vertigomez]

It's pretty much all been said. It really depends on how you define a "better" life, and also on your location. I'm willing to bet the humans of Redcliffe (uh, prior to the zombie outbreak and Tevinter takeover... ) lead better lives than the poor SOBs in Darktown. And a clan that has a lot of healthy young people and good trade relationships is going to be better off than one that's constantly under attack from humans or at the mercy of a power-hungry or careless Keeper.

Really, the "common" people who have it best are dwarves who leave Orzammar for the surface with a useful trade. The discrimination they face is more in line with 'lol dwarfs, make me a hammah!' and human nobles are probably paranoid as crap about the Carta or the fact that you're the second cousin twice removed of some hoity-toity deshyr.

[myahele]

I'd have to say that human commoners have a much better overall, they atleast have plenty of opportunities for advancements. At the very least we don't hear too much complaining about human commoners the same way as elves. 

 

Dalish ... it really depends on the clan. They have to constantly move around and fear whether or not they'll be attacked. They can't have a large group or else because that'll make traveling harder + more mouths to feed. Seems as if they'll be forced to go to another group of Dalish never to see their family/friends for a long time or forever.

[Vit246]

Recently I keep wondering why don't Dalish clans have herds of livestock or horses for the nomadic lifestyle. This drives me insane as a worldbuilder.

 

No. The halla don't count.

[Gervaise]

Actually the Halla do count because you can only have so much livestock with you if you want them to have enough food and be able to keep them safe from predators.   You could just as easily ask why the Lapps only have reindeer.   Mind you, their main use for Halla is as beasts of burden and for milk products, since they regard them as part of the family so eating them would be rather awkward.    For meat and hides they tend to opt for hunting wild deer and other animals.   

 

I actually felt that livestock farming would be a good way for Lavellan's clan to integrate with the local community over in Wycome.   The city is situated on a wide river delta, so likely either marshland pasture or water meadows, which is really only good for livestock farming.   The Dalish could adapt their stock keeping skills learnt from looking after Halla to other animals such as sheep (better on drier ground), cattle or horses.     The herds would wander over a wide area, so their semi-nomadic expertise would come in handy and then there would be a constant demand for their products in the markets of Wycome, which is the revelry capital of Thedas and so would need a constant supply of meat for all that feasting and partying they do, whilst horses are always needed for transport.   They could still sell Halla products, such as Halla milk, butter and cheese and antler carvings; all useful specialty products unique to the Dalish.   Their Halla would also likely grow big and strong again with a constant supply of good food.   You have to admit that the ones in DAI are ridiculously tiny for creatures that the elves once rode into battle.   Shetland ponies are small but stocky, so have strong legs and bodies but even though elves are lightweight, I can't see them riding those Halla into battle.     Anyway, there would be potential for the Lavellan clan to use the livestock skills they had perfected down the years to develop a reasonably affluent semi-nomadic lifestyle for themselves, or even a sedentary one.

[straykat]

I guess Dalish would be better. You don't own any land, but.... you don't really care either. lol. You're just a poacher no one can or wants to screw with...without a lot of help. If a human commoner tried this lifestyle, they're likely to get different attention..or punished more quickly. As we've seen from human npcs already.

 

City elves are worse than both unfortunately. Rotting in slums and no agrarian skills to boot. But they're my favorite "race" option nonetheless.

[vertigomez]

They could still sell Halla products, such as Halla milk, butter and cheese and antler carvings; all useful specialty products unique to the Dalish.   Their Halla would also likely grow big and strong again with a constant supply of good food.

Reminds me of the Amish.

[Vit246]

Mind you, their main use for Halla is as beasts of burden and for milk products, since they regard them as part of the family so eating them would be rather awkward.    For meat and hides they tend to opt for hunting wild deer and other animals.   

 

Thats my problem. Apparently they don't slaughter them for meat and hides. How can hunting sustain their large numbers?

[Big I]

Commoners stuck under a particular lord may find thier lives harder or easier depending on how the rule.

 

In Ferelden commoners are able to choose which lord they give their allegiance to, and can go and find a new one if they hate the one they have. It's probably the closest Thedas has to democracy.

[Vit246]

In Ferelden commoners are able to choose which lord they give their allegiance to, and can go and find a new one if they hate the one they have. It's probably the closest Thedas has to democracy.

 

Dirty console peasants can choose which PC master race lord to give allegiance? What kind of bastard feudalism is this? Feudalism, y u no make sense?

[Gervaise]

Each clan is around 50 members.   A fair proportion of them are hunters and everyone can probably muck in setting snares for smaller game, looking for eggs in nests and gathering fungi, herbs and berries.   There are also probably a fair number of wild vegetables they can gather.  They are also said to favour the use of a certain wood-burrowing beetle.   A big deer or wild boar would be sufficient to feed the entire clan.  They could also catch fish from rivers and other creatures.   The Dalish also do trade with outlying villages.  They have traditional recipes that involve the use of squashes (it is possible they do find these growing wild), chilli peppers, flour and sugar.    So on the whole, I think they would cope okay, even without tame livestock to supplement their diet.   It wouldn't be easy but neither would devoting resources to tending, feeding and guarding the livestock.     The traditional Romani do not have large numbers of domestic animals travelling around with them, just their horses to pull their caravans and dogs to help hunt game, and they seem to have coped okay.

[Vit246]

50 is too small a number for an average clan. Are you actually counting the number of npc models in-game onscreen?

[Gervaise]

No, I am going by the clan depicted in the Masked Empire.   It actually says there were less than 50 but there seemed only a small number of children and adolescents, so a normal clan would probably have between 50-60.   It is when Celene sees how pitifully small their numbers are and reflects on the fact that there are only a handful of clans in Orlais, that she realises the Dalish aren't the hidden threat lurking in the shadows that she always imagined them to be.   So the sparsely populated clans we meet in game are actually consistent with this, considering the majority of clan members would be out hunting when we visit.

 

May be some of the biggest clans might run up to 100 but it couldn't be much bigger because the whole reason for them travelling in small groups is so they do not attract too much attention and also if the clan is wiped out it doesn't make too big a dent in overall Dalish numbers.   World of Thedas also says that their bands are small and often made up of only blood relatives, so really just a large extended family.    The semi-permanent clans, like the one up in Rivain may be a bit bigger because they are not trying to avoid notice and have probably had a chance to build up numbers.