43 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[congokong]

In-game, Shepard obviously is because he/she can learn more powers. Lore-wise though, who do you think is stronger?

[RedCaesar97]

I would say cutscene/lore-wise, Jack is a stronger biotic than Shepard. 

 

See: destroying a bunch of YMIR mechs at once, crazy biotic handstand kill (Shadow Broker video footage), holding the biotic bubble. 

 

Not sure if Shepard would be able to handle the biotic bubble if given the opportunity.

 

 

Also, Jack and Samara (and Morinth?) are supposed to be roughly on par I think. Samara was able to pull a moving skycar (Shadow Broker video footage), and is also able to use her biotic to float in both ME2 and ME3 custscenes. In ME3, Adept Shepard and I think Kaidan can comment on this in the Ardat-Yakshi Monastery and Shepard will say that is beyond their ability. 

 

Now Jack is never shown to do that, but assuming her and Samara are roughly equal then she can do other things with about the same biotic power if not those exact things.

 

 

Lore-wise, biotic abilities seem to vary with the individual. Some biotic abilities seem inherently easier to some individuals than others, while other abilities can be learned. Individuals can also be "stronger" with biotics than others. Jack seems to be one of the stronger ones. I assume Adept Shepard is also strong but also has combat training with the Alliance military; not sure how much that affects Shepard's biotic skills. Also Jack was experimented on by Cerberus to increase her already substantial potential. 

 

We also know that the biotic implants can also make a difference. We know from Kaidan that L2s spike higher than L3s (except Shepard of course). Adept Shepard is given L5 implants in ME2; not sure how those perform compared to previous generations of the L implants. Not sure what Jack's implants are, although in ME3 Kahlee Sanders can give her L5x amps -- not implants-- if I recall (Shadow Broker message terminal).

 

 

I think I am still going with Jack being the stronger biotic than Adept Shepard. 

[capn233]

Subject Zero is likely the most powerful human biotic.

[UpUpAway95]

I would say cutscene/lore-wise, Jack is a stronger biotic than Shepard. 

 

See: destroying a bunch of YMIR mechs at once, crazy biotic handstand kill (Shadow Broker video footage), holding the biotic bubble. 

 

Not sure if Shepard would be able to handle the biotic bubble if given the opportunity.

 

 

Also, Jack and Samara (and Morinth?) are supposed to be roughly on par I think. Samara was able to pull a moving skycar (Shadow Broker video footage), and is also able to use her biotic to float in both ME2 and ME3 custscenes. In ME3, Adept Shepard and I think Kaidan can comment on this in the Ardat-Yakshi Monastery and Shepard will say that is beyond their ability. 

 

Now Jack is never shown to do that, but assuming her and Samara are roughly equal then she can do other things with about the same biotic power if not those exact things.

 

 

Lore-wise, biotic abilities seem to vary with the individual. Some biotic abilities seem inherently easier to some individuals than others, while other abilities can be learned. Individuals can also be "stronger" with biotics than others. Jack seems to be one of the stronger ones. I assume Adept Shepard is also strong but also has combat training with the Alliance military; not sure how much that affects Shepard's biotic skills. Also Jack was experimented on by Cerberus to increase her already substantial potential. 

 

We also know that the biotic implants can also make a difference. We know from Kaidan that L2s spike higher than L3s (except Shepard of course). Adept Shepard is given L5 implants in ME2; not sure how those perform compared to previous generations of the L implants. Not sure what Jack's implants are, although in ME3 Kahlee Sanders can give her L5x amps -- not implants-- if I recall (Shadow Broker message terminal).

 

 

I think I am still going with Jack being the stronger biotic than Adept Shepard. 

 

I believe that, when she tells you about her upgrade in ME2, she indicates that they are "plans for those L5X's, still got 'em in my head."  I would say, lore-wise, Jack is presented as being the strongest known human biotic.  However, when the points are tallied for the SM in ME2, she is listed as being one of the weaker characters on the team.

[congokong]

I did the monastery quest with my adept Shepard, Jean Grey, and Kaidan just recently, yet do not recall hearing a line where Shepard says they cannot float. That is disappointing. I always imagined adept Shepard could float around, even if it is not shown. Ex: Like when Shepard smashes on a window with an Avenger assault rifle, despite class or weapon, until Jack bothers using biotics. Strange how adept Shepard could not float when asari mercenaries, Falere, etc. can.

[RedCaesar97]

I would say, lore-wise, Jack is presented as being the strongest known human biotic.  However, when the points are tallied for the SM in ME2, she is listed as being one of the weaker characters on the team.

 

By weaker, do you mean her 'Hold the line" score? I think that is irrelevant to the discussion. It is a gameplay mechanic, but even if you want to extrapolate that into lore, then it applies to her defense, not her biotic strength unless you think her biotic strength plays into her defense (the best defense is a good offense and things like that; basically survive longer by killing more people). Although that is a combination of biotics and gunplay.

 

Lore-wise -- from the codex or the books, I cannot remember; I think it is from the codex -- we are told that biotics are capable of a few 'impressive' displays of biotics before they get too tired to perform any more biotic feats. As such, Jack would be capable of some impressive biotic displays that could kill, maim, and/or disable a lot of Collectors, but eventually she will get too tired to perform any more biotic displays and be forced to rely on her firearms. And keep in mind we have no idea how many Collectors there are, but we do know from Shepard's conversation with a squadmate mid-Reaper Larvae that the Collectors keep coming in waves.

 

But regardless, this seems to be subjective, and you bring up a nice counterpoint.

[UpUpAway95]

By weaker, do you mean her 'Hold the line" score? I think that is irrelevant to the discussion. It is a gameplay mechanic, but even if you want to extrapolate that into lore, then it applies to her defense, not her biotic strength unless you think her biotic strength plays into her defense (the best defense is a good offense and things like that; basically survive longer by killing more people). Although that is a combination of biotics and gunplay.

 

Lore-wise -- from the codex or the books, I cannot remember; I think it is from the codex -- we are told that biotics are capable of a few 'impressive' displays of biotics before they get too tired to perform any more biotic feats. As such, Jack would be capable of some impressive biotic displays that could kill, maim, and/or disable a lot of Collectors, but eventually she will get too tired to perform any more biotic displays and be forced to rely on her firearms. And keep in mind we have no idea how many Collectors there are, but we do know from Shepard's conversation with a squadmate mid-Reaper Larvae that the Collectors keep coming in waves.

 

But regardless, this seems to be subjective, and you bring up a nice counterpoint.

 

I agree, it was probably irrelevant but I couldn't resist bringing it up anyways.  As a separate point, I never got the impression from any of the dialogue that even an Adept Shepard believes himself to be a stronger biotic than either Samara/Morinth or Jack.  Kaidan, in ME1, does indicate a feeling that Shepard's biotics are superior to his own... but that can also be interpreted as doing some boot licking (if male Shep) or even using offhand compliments to flirt a little, within the regs (if femShep).  I do frequently use Jack on the end run (even in Insanity), so I don't mind that they gave her a relatively low "hold the line" score.  I find her particularly effective at clearling the platforms quickly (combined with Miranda's warp and slam and with her warp ammo active).

[congokong]

I cannot recall Kaidan, or anyone, ever mentioning Shepard's biotics in ME1. On the contrary, Shepard seems very ignorant on the subject despite potentially being a biotic themself.

[UpUpAway95]

I cannot recall Kaidan, or anyone, ever mentioning Shepard's biotics in ME1. On the contrary, Shepard seems very ignorant on the subject despite potentially being a biotic themself.

 

In ME1, Kaidan mentions that L2s "spike higher" than L3s and then adds "except for you [ie. Shepard] of course." or "present company excepted" (can't remember the exact line right now).  This line is a reference to Shepard being an L3 and indicates that Kaidan believes Shepard spikes higher than he does even though Kaidan is an L2.  It's really a line that only makes any sense when Shepard is a biotic, even though Kaidan will say it to any class of Shep.

[congokong]

In ME1, Kaidan mentions that L2s "spike higher" than L3s and then adds "except for you [ie. Shepard] of course." or "present company excepted" (can't remember the exact line right now).  This line is a reference to Shepard being an L3 and indicates that Kaidan believes Shepard spikes higher than he does even though Kaidan is an L2.  It's really a line that only makes any sense when Shepard is a biotic, even though Kaidan will say it to any class of Shep.

I played on PS3. There may be a bug where that line does not show up, because it never did for me that I recall.

[congokong]

While we are on the subject, anyone ever find it curious how adepts do not learn what is arguably the best biotic power: biotic charge? I get why that is the case in-game, but it is strange. I did not even use the adept's class-exclusive power, singularity, in ME3. I preferred double pull.

About the floating thing with Kaidan in the monastery, by the game's own logic, vanguards should be able to fast travel down with a charge; even better than floating.

The lack of floating makes no sense anyway since Shepard has no trouble lifting anyone else.

[UpUpAway95]

I played on PS3. There may be a bug where that line does not show up, because it never did for me that I recall.

 

Can't say - possibly.  I'm on an Xbox 360 and an Xbox One (although I'm mostly on the 360 until, hopefully, someday we get backwards compatibility for ME2 and ME3).

[RedCaesar97]

While we are on the subject, anyone ever find it curious how adepts do not learn what is arguably the best biotic power: biotic charge? I get why that is the case in-game, but it is strange. I did not even use the adept's class-exclusive power, singularity, in ME3. I preferred double pull.

About the floating thing with Kaidan in the monastery, by the game's own logic, vanguards should be able to fast travel down with a charge; even better than floating.

The lack of floating makes no sense anyway since Shepard has no trouble lifting anyone else.

 

This is getting off topic, but think of floating or charging as controlling one's own body mass instead of another object's (or person's body mass). In the codex, biotics are divided into three categories:

• Telekinesis (the ability to move objects). Examples: Pull and Throw
• Rapidly-shifting fields that deal damage. Examples: Warp and Reave
• Fields that can hold/pin/block objects. Examples: Barrier and Stasis

Biotic Charge and Floating are examples of telekinesis, except you are controlling your own body instead of someone's else's body. 

 

Now with Biotic Charge, Shepard is essentially throwing himself (or herself) into someone else. Throwing yourself into another object can be rather dangerous unless the object is forgiving enough to take the blow; in this case another person. When Shepard is charging another person, Shepard is transferring the kinetic energy into the other person. If Shepard were to charge a wall, floor, or other solid unforgiving object, Shepard could get seriously injured since the kinetic energy is not being transferred to the object and remains in one place.

 

Floating is slightly different in that Shepard has to reduce his (or her) own body mass or rate of descent. If Shepard does not apply the mass effect field around his body correctly, Shepard will fall too fast and get hurt if the fall distance is too great, or even end up throwing himself up into the air because he applied too much lift. Controlling your own body is much more difficult than controlling another object.

 

 

As for Adepts not having Biotic Charge: as you point out that is for gameplay reasons. Although if the Adept had Biotic Charge, how would you Vanguard be different? 

 

 

As for Singularity versus Pull in ME3: There was very little difference between them at launch. After the latest patch, Singularity is somewhat more unique now that it no longer gets destroyed after a biotic explosion, but choosing either Pull or Singularity is still a personal decision. For the most part I tend to use Liara's singularity and Javik's Pull more than my own whenever I use the Adept.

[cap and gown]

I did the monastery quest with my adept Shepard, Jean Grey, and Kaidan just recently, yet do not recall hearing a line where Shepard says they cannot float. That is disappointing. I always imagined adept Shepard could float around, even if it is not shown. Ex: Like when Shepard smashes on a window with an Avenger assault rifle, despite class or weapon, until Jack bothers using biotics. Strange how adept Shepard could not float when asari mercenaries, Falere, etc. can.

 

The identity of the other companion matters as well in determining whether you will get that dialogue:

 

Spoiler

[congokong]

So Shepard could lore-wise only charge into another forgiving object; not just as a means of travel? Vasir had no trouble.

[UpUpAway95]

So Shepard could lore-wise only charge into another forgiving object; not just as a means of travel? Vasir had no trouble.

 

Vasir could float and, apparently, was also strong enough to include Shepard in that float and then throw him/her out of it.

[congokong]

Vasir could float and, apparently, was also strong enough to include Shepard in that float and then throw him/her out of it.

You know, this thread has made me see biotic Shepard in a new and negative light. Kind of got an answer to my OP question.

[UpUpAway95]

You know, this thread has made me see biotic Shepard in a new and negative light. Kind of got an answer to my OP question.

 

Why a negative light?  Lore-wise, I think Asari are deemed to be stronger biotics than humans in general.  Miranda alludes to this in ME2 when she tells Shepard that she's a really strong biotic and then qualifies the statement with "for a human." So, it would be unlikely that Shepard would be stronger than any of the stronger Asari biotics in the game (i.e. Samara, Vasir, Aria, Liara - even though we're to consider Liara a relative Asari noob).  Jack is a bit of a conundrum in that she is presented as being an exceptionally strong human biotic (if not the strongest known human biotic) and yet a lot of players don't really find her specific talents all that useful to them.  Miranda is clearly not supposed to be as strong as Jack (lore-wise) but players often find Miranda (who has both warp and overload) a more useful squad mate overall.

[congokong]

Why a negative light?  Lore-wise, I think Asari are deemed to be stronger biotics than humans in general.  Miranda alludes to this in ME2 when she tells Shepard that she's a really strong biotic and then qualifies the statement with "for a human." So, it would be unlikely that Shepard would be stronger than any of the stronger Asari biotics in the game (i.e. Samara, Vasir, Aria, Liara - even though we're to consider Liara a relative Asari noob).  Jack is a bit of a conundrum in that she is presented as being an exceptionally strong human biotic (if not the strongest known human biotic) and yet a lot of players don't really find her specific talents all that useful to them.  Miranda is clearly not supposed to be as strong as Jack (lore-wise) but players often find Miranda (who has both warp and overload) a more useful squad mate overall.

Because Shepard apparently cannot float (even adepts) or biotic charge without a target, lore-wise. And Miranda is more a sentinel type hybrid which is why her biotics, while impressive for a human, would not compare to biotic specialists. I was under the impression that adepts compared to biotic specialists like Liara, Samara, and Jack. And in-game, they are way better.

[UpUpAway95]

Because Shepard apparently cannot float (even adepts) or biotic charge without a target, lore-wise. And Miranda is more a sentinel type hybrid which is why her biotics, while impressive for a human, would not compare to biotic specialists. I was under the impression that adepts compared to biotic specialists like Liara, Samara, and Jack. And in-game, they are way better.

 

However, Miranda's statement does not differentiate between "sentinel humans" and "adept humans."  She just say "for a human" - which implies to me that, universally, humans are considered to be not as strong at biotics as Asari (who are naturally biotic and all of them undergo biotic training in school - per Liara in ME3).

[congokong]

However, Miranda's statement does not differentiate between "sentinel humans" and "adept humans."  She just say "for a human" - which implies to me that, universally, humans are considered to be not as strong at biotics as Asari (who are naturally biotic and all of them undergo biotic training in school - per Liara in ME3).

I assumed that referred to the fact that most humans end up dead when exposed to eezo, and even those 10% who are able to get implants often have complications. Statistically, humans just do not have much biotic potential.

And during the suicide mission, Miranda, Thane, and Jacob all hold a barrier as effectively as Samara and Jack who cannot clear their heads. Not sure how literally to take that, but it may provide validation that a hybrid human biotic is not weaker just because they are human ...with proper implants.

[aoibhealfae]

I never heard the buggy line with Kaidan ever in my non-biotic ME1 playthroughs. I suppose it was a console bug.

 

To be honest, I prefer Shepard being a non-biotic because all of these. There's hardly any acknowledgment of each unique class and the game does have its tendency to make Soldier class as a default (assault rifles are boring). Even if in the gameplay, Shepard is a biotic god, but it doesn't necessarily reflect in the game.

 

If I recall correctly, the L5 implants that Cerberus use on Shepard are experimental and only possible due to the severity of Shepard's reconstructive surgery. The appeal of L3 and above was because it was safer to use. Jack was born around the time when L3 exist but she exhibit signs of having L2 implants; higher than average spikes, crippling pain and mental instability and of course, I doubt Cerberus are too concerned about using safer tech on her and it made sense that they need a controlled L2 study to replicate what Kaidan had done against Vyrnnus (during the time when human isn't known to kill with their biotics). And those I think those implants tested by Jack and Grissom kids are Bioamps rather than actualy biotic implants... like hell, I don't think they put these kids on brain surgery every time they need power upgrades.

 

But the lore itself was a mess. Kaidan was supposed to be first generation human biotics (as they are mostly accidentals) and yet Miranda is older than Kaidan and was genetically engineered to have biotics.. like how on earth her father know how to do that especially when humanity don't even know how biotics came to be. (Then again, I already canoned that her father and TIM is Cerberus). Jacob biotics aren't well understood either.

[UpUpAway95]

I never heard the buggy line with Kaidan ever in my non-biotic ME1 playthroughs. I suppose it was a console bug.

 

To be honest, I prefer Shepard being a non-biotic because all of these. There's hardly any acknowledgment of each unique class and the game does have its tendency to make Soldier class as a default (assault rifles are boring). Even if in the gameplay, Shepard is a biotic god, but it doesn't necessarily reflect in the game.

 

If I recall correctly, the L5 implants that Cerberus use on Shepard are experimental and only possible due to the severity of Shepard's reconstructive surgery. The appeal of L3 and above was because it was safer to use. Jack was born around the time when L3 exist but she exhibit signs of having L2 implants; higher than average spikes, crippling pain and mental instability and of course, I doubt Cerberus are too concerned about using safer tech on her and it made sense that they need a controlled L2 study to replicate what Kaidan had done against Vyrnnus (during the time when human isn't known to kill with their biotics). And those I think those implants tested by Jack and Grissom kids are Bioamps rather than actualy biotic implants... like hell, I don't think they put these kids on brain surgery every time they need power upgrades.

 

But the lore itself was a mess. Kaidan was supposed to be first generation human biotics (as they are mostly accidentals) and yet Miranda is older than Kaidan and was genetically engineered to have biotics.. like how on earth her father know how to do that especially when humanity don't even know how biotics came to be. (Then again, I already canoned that her father and TIM is Cerberus). Jacob biotics aren't well understood either.

 

I don't have any sort of way to capture video off my Xbox 360.  This is a link to Zevik's Soldier Insanity playthrough.  Kaidan says the "except for you" line" beginning at 3:12.  Keep in mind, this Shep is a soldier (not a biotic) and Kaidan still says the line as though he is talking to a biotic Shep.

 

Spoiler

 

PS:  How do I do a spoiler?

[RedCaesar97]

 

PS:  How do I do a spoiler?

 

When creating or editing a reply:

 

1. If you have existing text you want to hide with a Spoiler tag, select the text.

 

2. From the toolbar above the text box, click the Special BBCode icon (third icon from the upper left; it looks like picture or a graph of some sort).

 

    A Special BBCode dialog box appears.

 

3. From the BBCode drop-down list, select Spoiler.

 

    A text box will appear in the dialog box.

 

4. Enter or paste the text you want to hide in the Spoiler tag. If you selected existing text, the text will be added automatically into the text box for you.

 

5. Click OK.

[UpUpAway95]

When creating or editing a reply:

 

1. If you have existing text you want to hide with a Spoiler tag, select the text.

 

2. From the toolbar above the text box, click the Special BBCode icon (third icon from the upper left; it looks like picture or a graph of some sort).

 

    A Special BBCode dialog box appears.

 

3. From the BBCode drop-down list, select Spoiler.

 

    A text box will appear in the dialog box.

 

4. Enter or paste the text you want to hide in the Spoiler tag. If you selected existing text, the text will be added automatically into the text box for you.

 

5. Click OK.

 

Thanks Red!