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[PsychoBlonde]

So, I just recently got around to playing the Jaws of Hakkon DLC, and I noticed something interesting that made me think . . .

 

The Jaws of Hakkon were going to sacrifice Storvacker the bear in order to call down Hakkon into the body of a dragon, yes?  But why would they want to sacrifice a *bear*.  It's just a bear.  Except that this particular bear was semi-worshipped as an icon by the Avvar of Stone-bear hold.  Their thoughts and dreams and ideals--which affect the Fade in some unknown way and are powerful in this setting--were all attached to this bear.  So, presumably whatever ritual the Hakkonites were going to perform was meant to tie into that power somehow.

 

So, think about the beginning of the game.  Corypheus refers to the Divine as "the sacrifice".  And then later you meet an exceptionally powerful creature in the Fade that takes the form of the Divine and helps you out.  Nobody's sure if it was actually the Divine or a spirit or whatever.

 

What if that was the "spirit" of all the hopes and dreams and beliefs that Andrastians repose in the Divine, slowly empowered through all the years of her holding that position?  Such a spirit might have immense power, accumulated bit by bit.

 

Such a spirit might be something almost akin to a god.

 

Justinia sat on the Sunburst Throne for, what, seven years?  (She ascended to the throne in 9:34, the game is in 9:41).  Now, if this is accurate, think of the kind of accumulation a being who was worshipped for CENTURIES might have.

 

Maybe a "god" is something that people manufacture through worship.  It is like a storehouse of their wishing and hoping, gradually accumulating power.

It would explain how demons like the Nightmare work, too--they're like an anti-god, a repository of fears instead of more positive emotions.

[Evamitchelle]

The Jaws of Hakkon were going to transfer the spirit of Hakkon from the dragon to the bear, not sacrifice Storvacker.

 

"We cannot unravel the magic binding the dragon, but perhaps we can bring forth Hakkon himself and bind him anew to some other worthy beast. [...] As Jaws of Hakkon, we have no hold-beast, but the soft-limbed fools at Stone-Bear Hold have one who is tamed and ready."

[PsychoBlonde]

It would also mean that all the gods and demons that plague the world are basically given that power by people.  It would explain why Solas is trying to gather up a following instead of just using his mighty mage powers to do whatever he wants.  His orb may have been a simple repository for the accumulation of his "godhood"--the tool he used to access that power instead of just letting it accumulate in the Fade.  The Divine has no such tool, so her "godhood" was semi-independent and only effective within the Fade.  Solas was a god for a long, long time, so even if very few people believed in him any more he could still have accumulated immense power over time.

 

The explosions from the Anchor in the Tresspasser DLC may have been that power--reposed in the Inquisitor by her dramatic defeat of Corypheus--overloading because the Inquisitor didn't really know how it worked.  The Anchor was a gateway to that power that allowed it to be accessed.

[nightscrawl]

Wow, I really like this theory! It certainly beats the non-explanation that the game gave us.

 

I've never been too keen on the idea that Corypheus chose the Divine simply because he wanted to screw with the southern Chantry or because her death would cause chaos. He's a dude with things to do, places to go (the Fade!). I'd think that if he could have found a convenient way to power up the orb (to more quickly accomplish his goals) that didn't involve sneaking into the Conclave -- isolated in the mountains with hundreds of Chantry people and templars roaming about -- that he would have done that. It's always seemed to me that there had to be a reason it was her.

[PsychoBlonde]

The Jaws of Hakkon were going to transfer the spirit of Hakkon from the dragon to the bear, not sacrifice Storvacker.

 

"We cannot unravel the magic binding the dragon, but perhaps we can bring forth Hakkon himself and bind him anew to some other worthy beast. [...] As Jaws of Hakkon, we have no hold-beast, but the soft-limbed fools at Stone-Bear Hold have one who is tamed and ready."

 

Except that they refer to the bear as "the sacrifice" when you escape with it, and Svarah Sun-Hair confirms this later when you talk to her.  If they just needed an animal to bind their god to, they could have picked just about any of the critters wandering around Frostback Basin.

 

Keep in mind that if this is how gods "work", nobody seems to be aware of it.  The Hakkonites may have simply been aware of needing a "special" beast that had received lots of sacrifices and prayers and attention and they didn't want to go to the trouble of preparing their own, which might have taken who-knows-how-long.

[PsychoBlonde]

Wow, I really like this theory! It certainly beats the non-explanation that the game gave us.

 

I've never been too keen on the idea that Corypheus chose the Divine simply because he wanted to screw with the southern Chantry or because her death would cause chaos. He's a dude with things to do, places to go (the Fade!). I'd think that if he could have found a convenient way to power up the orb (to more quickly accomplish his goals) that didn't involve sneaking into the Conclave -- isolated in the mountains with hundreds of Chantry people and templars roaming about -- that he would have done that. It's always seemed to me that there had to be a reason it was her.

 

It's kind of a scary notion, too, because it means that whatever people choose to follow or believe in actually BECOMES empowered.  You find a codex entry in Jaws of Hakkon about spirits "maintaining" objects and structures with powerful associations, so in theory even relatively minor accumulations can still produce the power to accomplish something.

 

And think--what if the ancients knew this and set out DELIBERATELY to create "gods"?  The Avvar augur talks about it--how the spirits provide the Avvar with ideals that make them strong, and the Avvar empower the spirits with respect and worship.  It's a reciprocal relationship, each empowering the other.

[Gervaise]

It also explains how Mythal could survive with her personality in tact, if only having the power of wisp, whereas Solas' friend simply returned to the Fade to reform and he stated, even after it had grown again, the next wisdom would not have the personality or memories of his friend.     In Jaws of Hakkon we see a mural that shows how the mortal form of the god of the clan was killed, the spirit returned to the Fade and the collective prayers of the Avaar not only caused it to reform but come back in pretty much its previous incarnation.    So there is a very strong link between the number of your followers, the strength of their faith and the power you accumulate.   Of course it is also interesting how the Avaar are able to draw out a spirit to occupy a mortal form, which could explain a lot about how the old gods came to be in the form of dragons.   It is said the Neromenians believed the souls of their greatest heroes were reborn in the form of dragons and then they continued to lead them in battle, just like the Avaar god and just as the Evanuris used to lead the elves.   So great deeds leads to admiration, then veneration and ultimately godhood.

 

I do like your idea about the Divine because it does at least explain why Corypheus was there at the  Conclave and why the Divine was considered a sacrifice.   He says the ritual was years in the making, so clearly there had to be more to it than simply causing chaos and panic in the south.

[PsychoBlonde]

Good grief . . . what if Andraste (or her various disciples) knew that this is how gods worked, and that's why the entire mythology of the Maker being "gone" from the world is the way it is, because "present" gods were getting people into ZOMG so much trouble, so she set out to create a deist religion of an "absent" god as a remedy to all the damage being done by all the little gods people kept making everywhere.  What if the entire notion of the absent "Maker" is meant to dissipate belief instead of accumulating it?

 

It might also explain why the Qun is the way it is--among other things it's a structure for dissipating belief and preventing gods from growing.

 

Even little things like nobles and kings and emperors might have accumulations of power associated with them.  Vivienne would sure be an enthusiastic proponent of that idea.

[Evamitchelle]

Except that they refer to the bear as "the sacrifice" when you escape with it, and Svarah Sun-Hair confirms this later when you talk to her.  If they just needed an animal to bind their god to, they could have picked just about any of the critters wandering around Frostback Basin.

 

Keep in mind that if this is how gods "work", nobody seems to be aware of it.  The Hakkonites may have simply been aware of needing a "special" beast that had received lots of sacrifices and prayers and attention and they didn't want to go to the trouble of preparing their own, which might have taken who-knows-how-long.

 

Storvacker is not a sacrifice in the same way that Justinia was. The plan was to bind Hakkon to Storvacker, not kill Storvacker to put Hakkon in someone else. When they lost the bear, Gurd decided to become Hakkon's host himself. The sacrifice in this case seems to mean the loss of personhood (bearhood?) inherent with possession rather than loss of life like in Justinia's case.

 

Now the choice of Storvacker in itself is significant. They can't choose any random animal, they need a "worthy beast", meaning one that will actually be useful in waging war, and one that can actually survive being possessed by Hakkon. This is where the idea of belief granting power might come into play. Maybe what made Storvacker worthy was the belief of her clan. There are indications that it's possible to wish things into being in Thedas. Most obviously the spirits of the Fade, who can change not only their own shape but that of their surroundings as well. But it seems also possible in the material world, for example Leliana's Trespasser epilogue if she was 'killed' in Origins says that "lyrium sang thought into being". The way Dagna talked about the Titans ("As if, for a moment, I was around all my people. And my thought was all of theirs? My thought was all of their thoughts") could also be interpreted as meaning that the dwarves' thoughts changed the thought of the Titan. 

[PsychoBlonde]

Storvacker is not a sacrifice in the same way that Justinia was. The plan was to bind Hakkon to Storvacker, not kill Storvacker to put Hakkon in someone else. When they lost the bear, Gurd decided to become Hakkon's host himself. The sacrifice in this case seems to mean the loss of personhood (bearhood?) inherent with possession rather than loss of life like in Justinia's case.

 

Now the choice of Storvacker in itself is significant. They can't choose any random animal, they need a "worthy beast", meaning one that will actually be useful in waging war, and one that can actually survive being possessed by Hakkon. This is where the idea of belief granting power might come into play. Maybe what made Storvacker worthy was the belief of her clan. There are indications that it's possible to wish things into being in Thedas. Most obviously the spirits of the Fade, who can change not only their own shape but that of their surroundings as well. But it seems also possible in the material world, for example Leliana's Trespasser epilogue if she was 'killed' in Origins says that "lyrium sang thought into being". The way Dagna talked about the Titans ("As if, for a moment, I was around all my people. And my thought was all of theirs? My thought was all of their thoughts") could also be interpreted as meaning that the dwarves' thoughts changed the thought of the Titan. 

 

Yeah, the inaccuracy about precisely how they intended to use Storvacker doesn't materially change the theory--it was just what got me thinking about it, not any kind of conclusive evidence one way or the other.

[PsychoBlonde]

It also explains how Mythal could survive with her personality in tact, if only having the power of wisp, whereas Solas' friend simply returned to the Fade to reform and he stated, even after it had grown again, the next wisdom would not have the personality or memories of his friend. 

 

Well, Mythal was an elf before she was a god--being a person, that is, having an independent personality--may be what enabled her to stay "intact".  You can kind of see this with Cole as well--he doesn't remember stuff very well until he becomes more of a "person".

 

Spirits don't seem to develop that permanence of personhood or personality unless they interact with the "unchanging world" significantly.

[Al Foley]

...Mother of God.  

 

It could also be a matter of degrees too.  Either through time making something *really* powerful or the vast number of people making something really powerful.  IE the small tribe was worshipping their gods for centuries and thus it was really powerful, but in SOuthern Thedas you had hundreds of thousands...perhaps millions...of people worshipping the divine in some way shape or form.  Thus making that a really powerful effect. 

[PsychoBlonde]

The glyphs you read as part of Remains to be Seen sure seem to bear this out--a spirit protecting warriors but "dying" from the effort, then the Avvar praying to the spirit that was lost, then a great ritual where that spirit is somehow "resurrected".

 

Very similar to how Flemeth resurrects herself in DA2, as well.

[Xerrai]

Makes sense. I had figured similar things when I first went through Jaws of Hakkon and saw how belief=power=spirit for them. But i'm not too sure of how that would go when it goes towards a mortal. Where spirits are made up of ideas and feelings, mortals are much more complex.

 

Maybe a spirit would be made based on that belief (like the one we saw in the fade)? Or does the person being worshipped (in this case the Divine) actually manage to gain all of that power? If mortals can truly gain that "power of belief/faith" then it may explain how phenomena like the Evanuris were possible.

 

That being said, I do not believe The Divine was an absolute necessity to Cory's plan. She was just a convenient target that was also symbolic to his supremacy over the 'blasphemous' ideas of Andrastian faith.

 

If that theory is true, then killing one Divine in a ritual would be much more easier than accumulating 1,000 normal people to sacrifice.

[Xerrai]

The glyphs you read as part of Remains to be Seen sure seem to bear this out--a spirit protecting warriors but "dying" from the effort, then the Avvar praying to the spirit that was lost, then a great ritual where that spirit is somehow "resurrected".

 

Very similar to how Flemeth resurrects herself in DA2, as well.

What is it that the Chantry says? That "when the Chant is sung in all corners of the earth, our Maker will return"?

 

....wasn't Andraste an Alamarri which split into the Avaar and Chasind?

[Daerog]

People impact spirits, belief or no belief.

No one knew of The Nightmare, but it exists, it feeds, it grows. It only fed on the fear of mortals. Little, tiny fragments of fear add up and up and up. Fear is natural, but Solas will blame mortals for demons like his insecurity, fear, and depression isn't impacting the spirit world...

A spirit that is... dispersed?... will reform in some way over "time" (Fade time is not material time). It will be raw "spirit matter" that can be used by necromancers/binders or eventually become spirit(s) or demon(s).

The tradition and beliefs of the Avvar will cause a spirit to take on a role of their pantheon. Whether one wishes to define this being as a god is up to the individual. Andrastians believe in something beyond and greater than the Fade, so one can still argue whether their Maker exists or not, because a Fade spirit cannot take on such a role.

This whole people impacting spirits and spirits able to impact the material world is similar to the Warp in Warhammer, but more limited as people don't make spirits (that... substance... already exists in the Fade) as in the Warp (daemons, gods, all born from thoughts and feelings). So, mages are like psychers, but not as dangerous.

[Daerog]

 
....wasn't Andraste an Alamarri which split into the Avaar and Chasind?

Yes, and the Chantry teaches she initially prayed to the gods she knew (Lady of the Sky, Mountain Father, maybe others), but received no reply. Then the Maker answered her, so she came to believe the Maker as the creator of all, including the Fade. The Avvar acknowledge their gods to be spirits of the Fade, so belief in the Maker was pretty radical (my god made your gods!).

[PsychoBlonde]

Makes sense. I had figured similar things when I first went through Jaws of Hakkon and saw how belief=power=spirit for them. But i'm not too sure of how that would go when it goes towards a mortal. Where spirits are made up of ideas and feelings, mortals are much more complex.

 

Maybe a spirit would be made based on that belief (like the one we saw in the fade)? Or does the person being worshipped (in this case the Divine) actually manage to gain all of that power? If mortals can truly gain that "power of belief/faith" then it may explain how phenomena like the Evanuris were possible.

 

That being said, I do not believe The Divine was an absolute necessity to Cory's plan. She was just a convenient target that was also symbolic to his supremacy over the 'blasphemous' ideas of Andrastian faith.

 

If that theory is true, then killing one Divine in a ritual would be much more easier than accumulating 1,000 normal people to sacrifice.

 

Considering that the Avvar had to use an Augur or a ritual to actually talk to their "gods", I'd say the *person* wouldn't gain the power.  Hence the elven orb that Corypheus uses.  Solas said it was used for focus.  It may have been designed to let him pull power from his "godhood" without otherwise performing any rituals or appeasing any spirits--basically, he could directly use the accumulated power himself instead of needing an intermediary.  When Corypheus got his hands on it, he gained the ability to access such "wells" of power, perhaps, and he made a beeline for the biggest one he could think of--the Divine.  Assuming the theory is correct, of course.

 

The Inquisitor would be a unique case because of the Anchor, which kind of worked like Solas' orb (only it was attached DIRECTLY to the Inquisitor)--the Inquisitor could access and manipulate such wells of power.  Since Solas didn't have his artifact, he COULDN'T.  Unfortunately for the Inquisitor, over time the accumulation of power became too great and it kinda . . . exploded.

[PsychoBlonde]

People impact spirits, belief or no belief.

No one knew of The Nightmare, but it exists, it feeds, it grows. It only fed on the fear of mortals. Little, tiny fragments of fear add up and up and up. Fear is natural, but Solas will blame mortals for demons like his insecurity, fear, and depression isn't impacting the spirit world...

A spirit that is... dispersed?... will reform in some way over "time" (Fade time is not material time). It will be raw "spirit matter" that can be used by necromancers/binders or eventually become spirit(s) or demon(s).

The tradition and beliefs of the Avvar will cause a spirit to take on a role of their pantheon. Whether one wishes to define this being as a god is up to the individual. Andrastians believe in something beyond and greater than the Fade, so one can still argue whether their Maker exists or not, because a Fade spirit cannot take on such a role.

This whole people impacting spirits and spirits able to impact the material world is similar to the Warp in Warhammer, but more limited as people don't make spirits (that... substance... already exists in the Fade) as in the Warp (daemons, gods, all born from thoughts and feelings). So, mages are like psychers, but not as dangerous.

 

People may not "make" spirits, but it's pretty clear that spirits take on attributes, personality, and direction from people.  Hence why the Avvar can resurrect one of their gods if it dies--they take the "raw spirit matter" and have it put on their god-idea like a coat.  And the Avvar certainly think that people can *empower* spirits via rituals, worship, offerings, etc.

[PsychoBlonde]

Yes, and the Chantry teaches she initially prayed to the gods she knew (Lady of the Sky, Mountain Father, maybe others), but received no reply. Then the Maker answered her, so she came to believe the Maker as the creator of all, including the Fade. The Avvar acknowledge their gods to be spirits of the Fade, so belief in the Maker was pretty radical (my god made your gods!).

 

Considering how adamantly against dealing with spirits the modern Chantry is, I'd say it's reasonable to suspect that the Chantry's entire belief system is basically organized around the principle of preventing such gods from being created.  (They're adamantly opposed to cults of all kinds.)

 

The bit about "if everybody sings the Chant, the Maker will come back" basically is just there to tell them "spread the dang chant".

 

IF my theory is remotely accurate, even if there never was a "Maker" and it was your standard "we made this up to motivate people and explain things that make no dang sense" style of religion, there is probably some kind of Maker-spirit NOW and it is probably both immensely powerful and weirdly directionless given the ENORMOUS variety of beliefs regarding it.  Which could be horrifying, if you think about it--the Chantry set out to suppress this kind of thing and wound up creating the thermonuclear bomb of gods.

 

Or not, it may simply be nonspecific enough that there is no real singular entity you could call "The Maker" or "The Maker Accumulation".

[Daerog]

This is why the Qunari want nothing to do with the Fade. It is too crazy and chaotic.

There may well be a faith spirit that thinks it's the Maker... or not... but the Chantry would dismiss it as not being the Maker if they knew it was a spirit, which may discourage a spirit from doing so in the first place as it would be a paradox/contradiction. The Avvar gods are limited, the Maker made and designed limitations of the Fade and material world. So, a spirit just can't fulfill the role to begin with as no spirit has that kind of power and influence (move between realms on will, make material things like life, etc.). Well... I actually don't know that to be true... hmm...

Still, it is a good theory on the Divine. Also, if one has guardian spirits/gods, how is that not a bonus? Well, unless they demand stuff from you, like living sacrifices or whatever.

I thought the Nightmare was awesome. Something feeding on fears that became a super demon... it can't be the only one like that, and that makes the Fade so fun and scary. Imagine a very powerful spirit of hope doing battle against demons in the Fade, like Justice against the Baroness. Valor against wrath/rage.

The magisters tried to map out the Fade (ha!), I wonder if some can frequently visit certain realms, like how Solas could visit the realm of that wisdom spirit...

I'm just rambling off topic now...

[Sah291]

Good grief . . . what if Andraste (or her various disciples) knew that this is how gods worked, and that's why the entire mythology of the Maker being "gone" from the world is the way it is, because "present" gods were getting people into ZOMG so much trouble, so she set out to create a deist religion of an "absent" god as a remedy to all the damage being done by all the little gods people kept making everywhere.  What if the entire notion of the absent "Maker" is meant to dissipate belief instead of accumulating it?

I think that's highly likely, given that Andrastianism started as a slave rebellion. The Maker being absent or not doesn't so much matter, but by accumulating belief in one ultimate higher power, they could trump any lower worldly authority, and any ruler or would be god king who would justify their enslavement. The belief in the Maker collectivizes power away from rulers and other gods, and takes the emphasis off of any one individual who might try to have too much power over others. Also explains their distrust of magic and mages... because mages focus on using their own willpower to change the world, whereas they believe only the Maker has the right to decide the fate of men.

This also explains the somewhat odd relationship between red templars and blood mages. There's a fine line between belief in an absent Maker and belief in chaos or silence (Dumat).

[Heimdall]

I think that's highly likely, given that Andrastianism started as a slave rebellion. The Maker being absent or not doesn't so much matter, but by accumulating belief in one ultimate higher power, they could trump any lower worldly authority, and any ruler or would be god king who would justify their enslavement. The belief in the Maker collectivizes power away from rulers and other gods, and takes the emphasis off of any one individual who might try to have too much power over others. Also explains their distrust of magic and mages... because mages focus on using their own willpower to change the world, whereas they believe only the Maker has the right to decide the fate of men.
This also explains the somewhat odd relationship between red templars and blood mages. There's a fine line between belief in an absent Maker and belief in chaos or silence (Dumat).

Then again, they also seem to hold that Andraste can still be an active force in the world, that she hasn't abandoned it.

[Sah291]

Then again, they also seem to hold that Andraste can still be an active force in the world, that she hasn't abandoned it.

Yeah, although Andraste is a prophet, so I don't know if she is supposed to be considered as a god/dess herself and is prayed to like the Maker, or not. They seem to give blessings in her name and worship her, so she must have a spirit associated with her as well.

Their whole bride of the Maker thing seems to echo older elven ideas of having a divine pair/couple at the head of the pantheon (Elgar'nan and Mythal). So you have to wonder if some of that just got incorporated into their lore over time.

[Daerog]

The southern Chantry believes Andraste is divine (as the Bride of the Maker) and worship her. The Imperial Chantry says she is not divine and restricts worship to the Maker.

Origins says Andrastians believe the Maker doesn't interact with the world, Inquisition contradicts this on many occasions. So, whether the Maker has "abandoned" the world or is just aloof or operates frequently without mortal notice is kind of up in the air. Too much confusion on that doctrine between Origins and Inquisition.