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[Almostfaceman]

Origins says Andrastians believe the Maker doesn't interact with the world, Inquisition contradicts this on many occasions. 

 

Where at? 

[Daerog]

There were Orlesian nobles talking about praying to the Maker, hoping he will answer prayers, and if not, then just pray.

A faithful Inquisitor can say "I am the Maker's chosen!"

The Chantry itself asks if the PC is the Maker's chosen.

Such thoughts oppose the doctrine of abandonment, as it implies the Maker is still interacting with the world, directly or indirectly.

It's been a long time since I played, so I can't think of much, but I recall Inquisition really throwing the Maker around a lot, and I thought it strange because I expected Andraste to be talked about more since Origins says she still cares and such, but the Maker will not answer prayers.

[Aren]

Where at? 

I think @Daerog meant  the belief that is projected onto some people  as beings sent by the Maker.

[Daerog]

Being chosen by Andraste is well and good, but saying "maker's chosen" is in opposition to what Origins said. It makes Leliana's dialogue in Origins on her personal beliefs odd, because she says she believes the Maker still works in the world, but the Chantry disagrees. It seems by Inquisition, the Chantry is on board with Lel's ideas.

[Almostfaceman]

There were Orlesian nobles talking about praying to the Maker, hoping he will answer prayers, and if not, then just pray.

A faithful Inquisitor can say "I am the Maker's chosen!"

The Chantry itself asks if the PC is the Maker's chosen.

Such thoughts oppose the doctrine of abandonment, as it implies the Maker is still interacting with the world, directly or indirectly.

It's been a long time since I played, so I can't think of much, but I recall Inquisition really throwing the Maker around a lot, and I thought it strange because I expected Andraste to be talked about more since Origins says she still cares and such, but the Maker will not answer prayers.

 

It's not really that odd, if your observations are correct. 

 

First, they've deliberately kept the Chantry religion vague. We haven't a Bible analogue, for example. 

 

Second, modern religions have plenty of factions, right down to individual outliers. Protestants believe a personal worship of God. They pray to Jesus sometimes, sometimes they pray to the Father, depends on the denomination. Catholics generally communicate with God through Mary or their Priest. I'm speaking in very broad generalities but you probably catch my drift. 

 

So no, to me, none of this fuzziness about the Chantry dogma really bothers me. In fact, it adds slightly to the "plausibility" of the universe that not every single person is parroting the same thing, even in Orlais or Ferelden. 

[Sah291]

Well I remember Leliana's idea that the Maker was still present in the world was supposed to be seen as unusual, back in Origins. So it sounds like there are some Andrastians who believe that, but maybe not the majority. Officially, the Maker has turned away from humanity, and only interacts with the faithful who follow Andraste's teachings.

Once the Chant has spread to all of Thedas, the Maker is supposed to return and create a paradise. That could be taken as justification for the exalted marches. Or it could just be a metaphor for why there is so much suffering in Thedas (i.e. Thedas is not a paradise because so few people are virtuous, etc).

Interestingly, the wiki says Andrastians don't believe the Maker created the Dwarves. I guess that makes some sense- The Maker created the Fade, and Spirits. So anything not part of or connected to the Fade was not created by the Maker.

[Daerog]

It's not really that odd, if your observations are correct.

First, they've deliberately kept the Chantry religion vague. We haven't a Bible analogue, for example.

Second, modern religions have plenty of factions, right down to individual outliers. Protestants believe a personal worship of God. They pray to Jesus sometimes, sometimes they pray to the Father, depends on the denomination. Catholics generally communicate with God through Mary or their Priest. I'm speaking in very broad generalities but you probably catch my drift.

So no, to me, none of this fuzziness about the Chantry dogma really bothers me. In fact, it adds slightly to the "plausibility" of the universe that not every single person is parroting the same thing, even in Orlais or Ferelden.

It was a Mother in Orlais asking if you are the Maker's chosen, not someone who doesn't know the Chant or another denomination.

Chant of Light is the religious text, but we don't have it all, true. However, the Chantry emphasized the abandonment in Origins as much as the doctrine on magic.

While Christianity is not related to Andrastianism theologically, there are those, like me, who pray to saints and such, and this is similar to people praying to Andraste. The difference being Christians believe God didn't abandon or stop answering prayers, which is what the Chantry preaches. They do believe Andraste works in the world, like with Drakon, but they don't teach that Andraste is the Maker or an aspect or an avatar or anything that could make "Maker's chosen" reinterpretted to "Herald of Andraste" or vice versa.

Leliana's belief of the Maker still present and watching was in contrast to the Chantry's teachings, and she admits as much in Origins, where she just left a cloister as a sister.

If it was just people, like the nobles, it could be thrown to ignorance on Chantry teachings or disagreement, but there was a Mother saying things that opposed the teachings.

I'm all for Leliana's ideas, it makes for a better story, but it's the contradiction that bugs me on a lore level. Are they retconning what was said in Origins or does the Chantry still believe the Maker abandoned them and the Chantry members we met were being heterodoxical?

[Heimdall]

I think it must be remembered that these people believe the world is ending.

The Inquisitor's apparently miraculous survival could be seen to some as a sign that the maker has turned his gaze back to the world to help his children.

There's also the possibility that the Chantry treats the actions of Andraste as an extension of the Maker, that he interacts with the world indirectly through her before he returns in. a direct capacity. So it might not be so contradictory.

[Daerog]

That's true. I would like some more info on what the Chantry teaches, for lore and rpg reasons.

If it was due to the events, will it change doctrine to be more like Lel's beliefs, or will it revert back to Origins kind of deism. Until it's said one way or another, there is some lore confusion that can only be settled with speculation. Something that is known for sure in world, like a religion's doctrine/dogma, doesn't need to be left to speculation for the fanbase... unless BW is unsure on the direction they wish to go with it.

This is off topic... so... maybe other cults will sprout up for the purpose of making their own god(s) with the knowledge on how the Fade works from the Circle and Avvar traditions being found by some individuals, like Inquisition agents.

[veeia]

I would have liked more information about theology and different interpretations of the Chant/faith in Inquisition. I was expecting more, given the religious slant, but it mostly seemed to focus on the actual reforms/actions, not the basis on which they are formed. Probably Cassandra, Vivienne, and Leliana being our windows into it contributed to that, since Cass and Viv are more pragmatic, and we already have been exposed to Leliana's views.

[Reznore57]

That's true. I would like some more info on what the Chantry teaches, for lore and rpg reasons.

If it was due to the events, will it change doctrine to be more like Lel's beliefs, or will it revert back to Origins kind of deism. Until it's said one way or another, there is some lore confusion that can only be settled with speculation. Something that is known for sure in world, like a religion's doctrine/dogma, doesn't need to be left to speculation for the fanbase... unless BW is unsure on the direction they wish to go with it.

This is off topic... so... maybe other cults will sprout up for the purpose of making their own god(s) with the knowledge on how the Fade works from the Circle and Avvar traditions being found by some individuals, like Inquisition agents.

 

Well I'm not sure the Chant of Light is super well integrated in DAI.But you always got some sort of division between the lore you find in books ,codex etc and what actually happens in game.

The Chant of Light has sort of an apocalypse chapter but it ends with the Maker return.There's some verse hinting possibly at something happening in Haven....so you'd think a number of people in the Chantry would put 2 and 2 together and see what happens in DAI as some kind of religious prophecy coming true .But nope...

 

You can also find in some text , the Dalish believe their Gods are trapped in the Eternal city in the Beyond.Unless there's tons of peculiar city in the fade , it should be the Golden City.

So again you'd think that some Dalish would point out humanity corrupted the city of their Gods , but nope....

 

Qunari believes the fade is the place of the dead , and also their own dead .From this you can assume they do not like people messing with the fade , because of magic yes , but also well cultural taboo of disturbing the dead.But this is something you never hear about in game.

Just like the eternal city of the Dalish , the fade realm of the dead for Qunari is a throw away line which doesn't has influence in game but also has no influence on other piece of lore.Those facts appear once in the World of Thedas book and that's pretty much it.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

To me, it's just like those who believe in God, Allah, Goddess, whatever deity here. They will attribute things they cannot explain or that seem to be near miraculous to their deity doing it. In reality there is a more earthbound, sensible explanation. Thedosians do the same. "I can't fathom how that could happen so the Maker/Gods/Stone must have made it happen.

 

I've seen what many called a miracle, it was just an accident of nature in reality but, to this day, many who were there refuse to accept that fact and call it a miracle performed by God. It's the same on Thedas, people call things miracles when they are just coincidence, accidents of nature, etc... (or in this case what the writers decided would happen in the game.)

[Daerog]

Well, those people could attribute events to a god because they believe that god works in the world, so whether or not their deity stepped in, the thought isn't contrary to their theology/understanding... probably...

It wouldn't make sense for a deist to say their god interfered/intervened in something. They wouldn't be a deist if that was the case.

Crediting Andraste makes sense because of known Chantry teachings. Crediting the Maker could be in line, but seems heretical or at least heterodoxical with what is currently known... or at least what I know or recall.

[veeia]

It's possible that they believe when the Maker created the universe, he set into motion the eventuality of certain actions, ie, the Inquisitor was not chosen at the moment, but was pre-destined to fulfill that role.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Well, since "Perhaps it is/was the Maker's will." is a common saying, that might be the case. They think the maker willed it to happen before he abandoned them. But then that negates the whole freedom thing the south is so proud of. If the Maker willed it all to happen before abandoning the people, then you have no freedom, only the illusion of freedom because you will do what the Maker willed every moment of your life, as will everyone else.

 

Same problem a lot of Earth religions have: The divine being(s) knew everything that would happen at creation so, no one has any choice in the matter, they will or won't believe, they will do, say and be what they were decided to be when the world was created. They just get told they have free will when they really don't since the creator (whomever that is to the person) knew at creation when they would be born and what they would decide and do ever moment of their lives.

 

In both cases people are just robots doing what the creator predestined them to do ages ago.

[Daerog]

Eh, if you are going with a creator god that made time, and is thus not limited by time, then all things are known at once since there is no "this will happen," there is just an eternal "now." In that sense, there is agency, because one made the decision for the action, and the creator knows it because it is happening now... sort of... living outside time is difficult to fathom since experience is important to those limited to time... bleh, I should look up different arguments on this, philosophy debates/discussions are always fun.

However, this is an argument made for a kind of unlimited deity. Not sure if the Maker is considered that kind of deity due to the supposed abandonment. Does the Chantry believe the Maker transcends time? Possibly, as the Fade isn't bound to the laws of physics or time, why would the one who supposedly made it?

I assume the Andrastians believe in free will, since the abandonment would be kind of awkward if the Maker designed people to eventually dissappoint him, not just the option. It is possible they don't believe in an all knowing creator god... not sure how that works with a being that transcends time...

Maybe the Fade does have time; afterall, there is a physical part of the Fade...

[PsychoBlonde]

I think it must be remembered that these people believe the world is ending.

The Inquisitor's apparently miraculous survival could be seen to some as a sign that the maker has turned his gaze back to the world to help his children.

There's also the possibility that the Chantry treats the actions of Andraste as an extension of the Maker, that he interacts with the world indirectly through her before he returns in. a direct capacity. So it might not be so contradictory.

 

There's actually a formal series of events that went something like this:

 

1. The Maker creates the spirit world.  It's boring.

2.  The Maker creates the real world and waits to see what happens.

3.  The Magisters become prideful and attempt to enter the Golden City, blackening it and pissing the Maker off, so the Maker says "screw you guys, Imma goin home" and withdraws from the world.

4.  Andraste prays to the Maker so sincerely that he gets over his snit and empowers her to throw down the Imperium.

5. Maferath has a jealous fit and betrays Andraste and the Maker just washes his hands of the entire mess and leaves

6.  Andraste intercedes with the Maker and says "please oh please don't abandon everyone"

7. The Maker grudgingly allows that if people follow Andraste's teachings sincerely, they can come hang with him after they die.

 

So, basically most Andrastians believe that Andraste acts as a sort of go-between.  It's not that the Maker doesn't DO anything--they believe he created the world and presumably keeps it cranking along somehow--it's that he doesn't TALK to anybody any more (except, maybe, via Andraste, who had/has special dispensation).  This would be why the Inquisitor was the "Herald of Andraste" (who does intercede) and not the "Herald of the Maker" (who doesn't).  Intercession, in this case, meaning more "explain things" and "give advice/instruction" than "miraculously fix everything".

[PsychoBlonde]

So, some more thoughts:

 

1.  If Morrigan has Kieran, when you follow them into the Fade, at one point Flemeth says something along the lines of "souls aren't for everyone".

 

2.  The Avvar have some interesting beliefs regarding what happens when you die, and that SOME (but only SOME) souls have the possibility to "return", and perform special funeral rites for people like that--you can get involved in performing this rite.

 

3.  When you talk to Solas at the end of Trespasser, you have the option to say "we're all like Tranquil to you", and there are indications that most people aren't "real" people to him--the Inquisitor apparently was a "real person".

 

What if a soul isn't something that everybody just HAS, and what I was referring to earlier as someone's "accumulated godhood" is basically the SOUL they've constructed for themselves from the life that they've led?  If you lead the right kind of life, you "build" a soul for yourself which can manifest in the Fade and persist after you die and maybe come back or do stuff or . . . something.

 

Okay, think about that . . .

 

Now think about what it'd be like if you were the kind of person that Corypheus was.  Think about the kind of "soul" you would have.  Now think about tearing down the walls of the Fade to step in to the "throne of the gods" and claim your "godhood" . . . or your "soul".  You "seek the light" but what would you find . . . darkness and corruption, dead whispers, emptiness . . .

 

Maybe what Corypheus and the other Magisters found in the Fade was simply . . . themselves.  The horror that they had constructed as their souls, like some kind of metaphysical Picture of Dorian Gray.  They touched it, united with it . . . and it made them into VISIBLE monsters.

 

Maybe that'd make the Blight into a kind of soul-plague.  If you're an ordinary person without much in the way of a soul, it just kills you right off.  If you're a "great-souled" kind of person (the Wardens only take the exceptional!), you can resist it to a point, although it eats away at you, consumes your soul, slowly draining it and replacing it with vileness and monstrosity.  Or something like that, I'm not clear on how exactly the Blight would connect to this. 

[PsychoBlonde]

The evidence for this theory seems to pile up fairly well if you think about it, I mean, Abelas basically describes the Well of Sorrows as an intentional "accumulation" of the stored-up lives and wisdom of the priests of Mythal.

[Heimdall]

There's actually a formal series of events that went something like this:

1. The Maker creates the spirit world. It's boring.
2. The Maker creates the real world and waits to see what happens.
3. The Magisters become prideful and attempt to enter the Golden City, blackening it and pissing the Maker off, so the Maker says "screw you guys, Imma goin home" and withdraws from the world.
4. Andraste prays to the Maker so sincerely that he gets over his snit and empowers her to throw down the Imperium.
5. Maferath has a jealous fit and betrays Andraste and the Maker just washes his hands of the entire mess and leaves
6. Andraste intercedes with the Maker and says "please oh please don't abandon everyone"
7. The Maker grudgingly allows that if people follow Andraste's teachings sincerely, they can come hang with him after they die.

So, basically most Andrastians believe that Andraste acts as a sort of go-between. It's not that the Maker doesn't DO anything--they believe he created the world and presumably keeps it cranking along somehow--it's that he doesn't TALK to anybody any more (except, maybe, via Andraste, who had/has special dispensation). This would be why the Inquisitor was the "Herald of Andraste" (who does intercede) and not the "Herald of the Maker" (who doesn't). Intercession, in this case, meaning more "explain things" and "give advice/instruction" than "miraculously fix everything".

Actually I think the Chantry says the Maker first abandoned the world when the people discarded him to worship more active deities (namely, the Old Gods). That was the First Sin. The Magisters breaking into his house was the Second Sin.

I agree with the rest though.

[Toasted Llama]

So, some more thoughts:

 

1.  If Morrigan has Kieran, when you follow them into the Fade, at one point Flemeth says something along the lines of "souls aren't for everyone".

 

2.  The Avvar have some interesting beliefs regarding what happens when you die, and that SOME (but only SOME) souls have the possibility to "return", and perform special funeral rites for people like that--you can get involved in performing this rite.

 

3.  When you talk to Solas at the end of Trespasser, you have the option to say "we're all like Tranquil to you", and there are indications that most people aren't "real" people to him--the Inquisitor apparently was a "real person".

 

What if a soul isn't something that everybody just HAS, and what I was referring to earlier as someone's "accumulated godhood" is basically the SOUL they've constructed for themselves from the life that they've led?  If you lead the right kind of life, you "build" a soul for yourself which can manifest in the Fade and persist after you die and maybe come back or do stuff or . . . something.

 

Okay, think about that . . .

 

Now think about what it'd be like if you were the kind of person that Corypheus was.  Think about the kind of "soul" you would have.  Now think about tearing down the walls of the Fade to step in to the "throne of the gods" and claim your "godhood" . . . or your "soul".  You "seek the light" but what would you find . . . darkness and corruption, dead whispers, emptiness . . .

 

Maybe what Corypheus and the other Magisters found in the Fade was simply . . . themselves.  The horror that they had constructed as their souls, like some kind of metaphysical Picture of Dorian Gray.  They touched it, united with it . . . and it made them into VISIBLE monsters.

 

Maybe that'd make the Blight into a kind of soul-plague.  If you're an ordinary person without much in the way of a soul, it just kills you right off.  If you're a "great-souled" kind of person (the Wardens only take the exceptional!), you can resist it to a point, although it eats away at you, consumes your soul, slowly draining it and replacing it with vileness and monstrosity.  Or something like that, I'm not clear on how exactly the Blight would connect to this. 

 

I think you're on to something...

 

 

 

While you're on a roll with your theory: since Solas claims he made the Veil, where/how does a combined world (the real and the fade) fit into this theory?

[veeia]

Well, since "Perhaps it is/was the Maker's will." is a common saying, that might be the case. They think the maker willed it to happen before he abandoned them. But then that negates the whole freedom thing the south is so proud of. If the Maker willed it all to happen before abandoning the people, then you have no freedom, only the illusion of freedom because you will do what the Maker willed every moment of your life, as will everyone else.

 

Same problem a lot of Earth religions have: The divine being(s) knew everything that would happen at creation so, no one has any choice in the matter, they will or won't believe, they will do, say and be what they were decided to be when the world was created. They just get told they have free will when they really don't since the creator (whomever that is to the person) knew at creation when they would be born and what they would decide and do ever moment of their lives.

 

In both cases people are just robots doing what the creator predestined them to do ages ago.

 

Yeah, I think there are a lot of contradictions in faiths about free will vs predetermination, so I think its very possible that they hold the beliefs that the Maker planned things, but there is free will within it. I think people find comfort in the idea that things are planned (so bad things have a reason/their actions become justified) but also are uncomfortable with the idea that they don't have any agency, so they find ways to hold both simultaneously even if it doesn't completely, on an objective level, logically fit. Generally the way they parse this is by believing that people have a purpose, but also the ability to reject that purpose.

 

PyschoBlonde, you're touching on some interesting ideas. I'm feeling a bit resistant to aspects of it, but I'm not quite sure why.  I'll have to think on it, but I do like how you've tied it into the Blight, that's a cool idea.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

PyschoBlonde, you're touching on some interesting ideas. I'm feeling a bit resistant to aspects of it, but I'm not quite sure why.  I'll have to think on it, but I do like how you've tied it into the Blight, that's a cool idea.

 

Well, there has to be SOME kind of connection to the Blight (if this is accurate) because the Magisters (well, at least Corypheus and the Architect) became darkspawn, and I doubt they did it INTENTIONALLY.  Yet, on the same note, they have more control over it and get that whole immortality thing from it, so it has to be different in at least some way from what happens when Joe Schmoe gets blighted.

 

I also suspect that the blight in some way originated with that Titan that Mythal killed.  Bianca says that red lyrium has the blight, and there was red lyrium at that ancient thaig that (probably) predates the Magisters invading the Fade.  Also there's at least one codex entry you can find where a dwarf says that the human notion of the blight coming from magisters is absurd--it came out of the depths.  Which also sort of tends to indicate a titan.  The Rock Wraith that Hawke fights in DA2 is VERY similar to the lyrium guardian that the Inquisitor fights in The Descent, only red lyrium instead of the regular kind.

 

Plus, the Titans are all sleeping--except that one woke up due to the Breach.  Do Titans have "souls" in the Fade?  It'd be pretty weird for something that huge and powerful NOT to have a soul of some kind, if this theory has anything to it.  And the Titans apparently produce children of a sort (dwarves) that they are linked to in some way.

 

Maybe the Blight was created from the rage and pain of the dead or dying titan, desperately reaching out for anything that might save it.  They do mold the world, after all.

 

If the existence of red lyrium pre-dates the attempt of the Magisters to enter the Fade, it's possible they might have used red lyrium in that attempt--or have been using it for years.  It's powerful stuff, after all.  Kinda out of information to speculate with at this point.

[Sah291]

@PsychoBlonde,

I think it's likely that either not everyone is aware they have a soul, and so it is weak or invisible in the fade (so other spirits can't see it). And/or that souls are something cultivated and developed, and that goes on a journey of ascension (ultimately to godhood or union with the divine- i.e. going to the Maker's side). This is the process the Chantry calls earning back the Maker's favor. It is only those who follow Andraste that get to return to the Maker's side after death. The rest are said to wander the void/fade lost.

That means that souls are something that can die or be lost, or that you can be separated from (like the Tranquil). In Solas' personal quest, he says the Wisdom spirit will return to the void, and if the spirit behind the idea was strong enough, it could come back one day--but it won't remember anything.

As for the Veil. The Veil separates the fade from the mortal world, and separates the soul from the body, so that it causes mortals to "forget". So then people and spirits who manage to pierce the Veil are probably those that are strong enough to remember who they are/were.

But yeah, there are some religions that don't believe we are just born with an immortal soul automatically, but that we earn one via grace or through works, or gnosis. There are some that don't believe we have a soul at all. That the soul is an illunion of ego, and after death our consciousness goes back to the void or ether (like a drop in the ocean), and is reincarnated as something else.

[PsychoBlonde]

Keep in mind that this isn't really a discussion of religion per se, but just how it works *in Thedas*.  It doesn't have to bear any resemblance to any real religion or belief system, it's the physics of a fantasy world.

 

Anyway, I find it interesting that there's a whole sort of "immortality" angle to it as well.  The elves, who WERE immortal, threw it away--or Solas did it for them--but a lot of other folks seem completely willing to smash the world to get their hands on it.

 

Also, on another note, at the end of the game when Solas confronts Flemeth, he mentions that it was his failure, so he should "pay the price, but the People need me" . . . and then he kills Flemeth and his eyes go all glowy.  If the elven orb really was a tool for Solas to accumulate and use the power of his "god-soul", when the orb was destroyed he was basically cut loose from that essence or whatever you want to call it.  So he basically goes and takes Flemeth's "god-soul"--and she lets him, because presumably she COULD have stopped him if she'd wanted to.