44 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

This is thread is not about some stupid bar that fills as you make choices, but practical implementation of renegade choices.

 

I think ME2 had it right. Renegade choices centered around "I'm gonna save the galaxy and damn the consequences". I think ME1 was the same, but you were more of an jerk which was not a real problem since most of it was just conversation. But in ME3 renegade choices make you an outright psychopath who likes to inflict suffering on others and enjoys it. I don't have a problem with almost evil choices/personality being in the game, but I really don't like it when it fully replaces the renegade option of previous games. 

 

So this more of a plea to bring the actual renegade options back in MEA. I think what happens to Cerberus in ME3 perfectly portrays what happens to renegade option when compared to ME2.

[Ahriman]

I personally disliked ME1 Renegade the most, in non story-critical dialogues it was about being racist dick just for the sake of it.

 But in ME3 renegade choices make you an outright psychopath who likes to inflict suffering on others and enjoys it.

Could you give some examples? My memories got kinda blurred on that.

[Fogg]

I rather see no paragon/renegade system. It's a bad implementation of the dark/light for KOTOR and is too black and white. I prefer the DA2 system, that one is cool.

[Laughing_Man]

I would prefer a reputation system with separate point counters for different factions, and some personal qualities like compassionate Vs. ruthless, idealist Vs. pragmatic, etc.

[10K]

I think your actions should dictate how others will treat you, period. Paragon and renegade did nothing but track Shepard's outlook.

[KaiserShep]

I'll never understand the idea that ME3's Renegade options were somehow psychopathic compared to those of ME1 or 2. When I pushed that merc out the window, I didn't initially expect a catchy one-liner to follow watching someone screaming to their death. 

[slimgrin]

Obviously the morality meter thing has to go or be seriously revamped. Renegade was particularly inconsistent. 

[wolfsite]

The same can be argued that ME2's renegade options can be rather psychopath as there were multiple times a renegade option led to innocent people dying or condemning people (and even a race) to death or even talking about how great it is to shoot someone in the back of the head who is completely defenseless and in need of mental help.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll never understand the idea that ME3's Renegade options were somehow psychopathic compared to those of ME1 or 2. When I pushed that merc out the window, I didn't initially expect a catchy one-liner to follow watching someone screaming to their death. 

 

Agreed. ME3 went to some pretty bizaar stretches to equivocate the paragon and renegade to a nearly indistinguishable extent sometimes. With a few glaring exceptions- the al-jilani interrupt/running joke of beating a woman, and the kill-geth Renegade path- they were pretty reasonable and ideologically indistinct. Paragon got heavy in the 'sacrifices are okay', and Renegade dropped most, if not all, the racism and human-centric themes.

 

 

Mass Effect 1 Rengade jumped between hard-nosed human-centric cynicism and outlandish racism and petty greed, while ME2 Renegade... didn't have much besides a vaguely human-centric theme, since ME2's P/R was a tone-based system and so Reneage meant 'mean' or 'violent' regardless of position.

 

Obviously the morality meter thing has to go or be seriously revamped. Renegade was particularly inconsistent. 

 

Agreed.

 

In ME1, Renegade was politically Alliance-centric, but meandered into casual cruelty, racially bigoted, and petty criminality whenever they were the 'moral delimmas.'

 

In ME2, Paragon and Renengade were tone-based morality, flipping ideological spots occasionally in the same conversations. Renegade was still human-centric, but more about movie-violence and one-liners.

 

In ME3, P and R lost most of their distinction for me, as they both merged towards the middle.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Whether or not the P/R system returns I would like to see the return of the human-centrist viewpoint that was possible in ME1 for the main character to express.

 

And I still don't grasp how people think ME3 renegade somehow became more extreme compared to ME1/2.

[Seboist]

Whether or not the P/R returns I would like to see the return of the human-centrist viewpoint that was possible in ME1 for the main character to express.

 

And I still don't grasp how people think ME3 renegade somehow became more extreme compared to ME1/2.

Yeah, ME3 Renegade is pretty moderate compared to ME1/2 Renegade. There's nothing in 3 akin to going full deathsquad mode on Major Kyle's compound out of pure choice, deliberately allowing the council to die for the expressed purpose human dominance, keeping David Archer in Overlord, or the various minor pure trolling for the lulz choices like sending the "biotic god" out to get himself killed.

 

Obviously the morality meter thing has to go or be seriously revamped. Renegade was particularly inconsistent. 

True, but paragon could be very inconsistent, from preaching "thou shall not kill/hit" to threatening to break an elcor's legs(ME2).

[Laughing_Man]

I'll never understand the idea that ME3's Renegade options were somehow psychopathic compared to those of ME1 or 2. When I pushed that merc out the window, I didn't initially expect a catchy one-liner to follow watching someone screaming to their death. 

 

The electrocution of the Merc on the way to recruit Garrus was even more brutal.

 

It doesn't even makes much sense, this is not how a commando efficiently kill an enemy without alerting others, electrocuting someone to death while he is screaming both tends to attract attention and has no tactical value.

 

I could understand electrocuting someone like say Balak, as part of an interrogation to prevent one of those attacks on population centers (in BDTS or the ballistic missile choice), but doing it for kicks seems somewhat psychopathic to me.

[Jedi Comedian]

ME3 renegade choices make you an outright psychopath who likes to inflict suffering on others and enjoys it.

Sounds just like my kind of renegade options.

[Monk]

I think for MEA having Renegade represent "Tough Bastard", while Paragon get's "Nice Guy". But this is only if there's two major points on the scale.

 

 

Preferably, i'd like to see more variation then the 0-to-[Butt]hat ruler. Maybe five points for a bit of variation? Incorporating the above proposition, the ruler could be the following: [ Nice Guy -- Cool but Quirky -- Neutral -- Tough Bastard -- Remorseless ].

[Lulupab]

Well I read all your posts, so I will make a post addressing most of the points.

 

So lets pick one of the choices from ME3 that a renegade Shepard can make. Shooting Mordin. ME2 renegade shepard would never do it. Instead he would do things like knocking him out since the building was in process of getting destroyed anyway. Or Shoot the elevator control, or even shoot Mordin on the leg. Anything BUT cold blooded murder of one his old friends.

 

At this point "renegade" is just a name that describes a set of personality the protagonist can choose, it can be named anything to be honest. So I don't think anyone will mind a simple change of name/system when it comes to it as long as the core aspect remains the same.

 

ME1 renegade Shepard can have very insulting conversations, but that's just it. Most of renegade options of ME1 are racist and hateful talking and no action. ME2 improves on this a bit and it becomes more action, less words. I think ME3 overdid it by being both. And doing things a renegade shepard with ME2 mentality would never do.

[sentinel_87]

Like others have said, I'd like to see renegade responses return to a more pro human outlook than what they became in ME2/ME3.  This is probably more likely since humanity are refugees in a new galaxy looking for a home, so I'm optimistic.

 

I would say it does make some sense in the latter two games.  You are no longer the newbie on the block simply espousing pro human views to the galactic community who looks down on you, but must gather allies to your cause to fight for you.  While a pro human Shepard would be interesting I can see why it was done away with a little in the writing.

 

Instead Bioware moved to  the interrupt system.  Here you are not making statements, but usually taking action.  Again, like others have said I've never viewed ME3's renegade actions as more psychopathic than ME2.  They are actions with a goal in mind of getting the job done, not sadistic violence for the sake of pleasure.

 

In the shooting Mordin example, I couldn't pull the trigger in my main Shepard's first playthough the scene was handled so well, Shepard can try to stall and then talk Mordin out of releasing the cure.  At the end of the conversation Mordin says that he understands what Shepard's goals are but does not support them and the Shepard should do what he must.  Mordin then says he will do what he must and heads for the tower. 

 

During this entire conversation Shepard can state that he will stop Mordin, no matter the cost.  That cost is Mordin's life, one that Shepard can be willing to pay.  The interrupts are supposed to be decisive actions.  I'd say that this is a huge one in the game, one of the most important even.  A lot hangs in the balance of Shepard pulling that trigger or not.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how that is more sadistic than pushing a merc out of  skyscraper Shepard was talking to.

 

I do hope the interrupt system returns, I've never minded the whole paragon/renegade scale myself though.  I'd just like it to be brought up more in game.  It affected some auto dialogue and there are two possible types of the control ending based on the ratio of paragon or renegade.  But I also like a way of keeping track of how my character is behaving overall.  If Andromeda could expand on that some it'd be great.  Possibly making it non binary would be interesting like suggested would be a better system.

[SKAR]

If I'm gonna make renegade choices I want to feel like a bad@$$ when I do. Like an anti hero and not a complete douche. Throw some dude out the window, hell's yeah. I want to be cold but not be evil.

[Dean_the_Young]

True, but paragon could be very inconsistent, from preaching "thou shall not kill/hit" to threatening to break an elcor's legs(ME2).

 

Paragon's inconsistencies were typically between being a Paragon of societal values (following the law, defer to (Council) authority, subordination of self-interest to wider interests), and simply being nice/sympathetic, with the occasional twisting to just be correct (or avoid being wrong- see the Rachni ME3 choice). This kept tonal consistency better than Renegade, since 'Rule of Law' was invaribly painted as good and sympathetic when applied by Paragon Shepard vis-a-vis the times sympathetic!Paragon Shepard would let the rules slide. Contrast that to the more extreme swings in Renegade, from cynical pragmatic risk-adverse to reckless cruel racist, and Paragon had a more consistent tone.

 

What it did lead to, however, especially in ME2, was regular hypocrisy on principles. Paragon Shepard is an upholder of the law, except when friends or sympathetic others are on the wrong side of it, at which point it's Paragon to cover up war crimes. (Tali ME2.) Paragon is procedural, by the book, unwilling to accept collateral damage... except for frequently willing to accept risks of future collateral damage and unilaterally absolving or ignorring select crimes and criminals. Paragon in ME1 and 2 was frequently about not letting fear compromise principles... until ME3 rode all over that straight into the ground.

 

Paragon had just as much variance as Renegade in substance, but nearly always kind (or presenting itself as righteous), and never drew notice to any hypocrisies.

[capn233]

The electrocution of the Merc on the way to recruit Garrus was even more brutal.

 

And yet "you're working too hard" is my second favorite renegade thing behind "you talk too much."

 

This thread so far has had some pretty good characterizations of renegade in the three games, which is refreshing since renegade has at times seemed to be one of the most romanticized things in all of Mass Effect.

[SKAR]

And yet "you're working too hard" is my second favorite renegade thing behind "you talk too much."

This thread so far has had some pretty good characterizations of renegade in the three games, which is refreshing since renegade has at times seemed to be one of the most romanticized things in all of Mass Effect.

I liked burning that one crazy Krogan to a crisp. I also liked beating up those two Turians.

[Catilina]

I hated it when Shepard told f*** politicians, he received renegade point, but I think it is fairly paragon type answer... (ME3)

 

And now seriously: renegade/paragon system are stupid enough. 

The above example proves it. It's a simple sarcastic answer, or just mean that I am a soldier, and not interested in politics, I do my job, leave me alone with the stupid politics. This is not comparable with if you torture someone to the death to reach your goal, or you let out the prison is a dangerous psychopath for example.

[SKAR]

I hated it when Shepard told f*** politicians, he received renegade point, but I think it is fairly paragon type answer... (ME3)

And now seriously: renegade/paragon system are stupid enough.
The above example proves it. It's a simple sarcastic answer, or just mean that I am a soldier, and not interested in politics, I do my job, leave me alone with the stupid politics. This is not comparable with if you torture someone to the death to reach your goal, or you let out the prison is a dangerous psychopath for example.

If it were paragon he'd be a bit more reasonable. Paragon's are calm. Renegades are....well....renegade. not that there's a problem with that. Paragon's are portrayed as more level headed than angry or arrogant. I like to play as a mix to match my personality but I'm mostly Paragon cause I like to be nice.

[Catilina]

If it were paragon he'd be a bit more reasonable. Paragon's are calm. Renegades are....well....renegade. not that there's a problem with that. Paragon's are portrayed as more level headed than angry or arrogant. I like to play as a mix to match my personality but I'm mostly Paragon cause I like to be nice.

 

Just as me. Exactly this is why I told this. And, I think, the renegade is not the opposite of paragon. 

[ZipZap2000]

I think paragon should actually reflect the word paragon and renegade reflect renegade.

They never actually did that.

A paragon Shepard should have told the Salarians to go to hell and fight the war on their own, abandoning them for the Krogan.

A renegade should have threatened to use their planet as a distraction to keep the Reapers busy and left them no choice but to help.

The Genophage cure would be irrelevant to a renegade Shepard. He doesn't play by those rules.

[SKAR]

I think paragon should actually reflect the word paragon and renegade reflect renegade.

They never actually did that.

A paragon Shepard should have told the Salarians to go to hell and fight the war on their own, abandoning them for the Krogan.

A renegade should have threatened to use their planet as a distraction to keep the Reapers busy and left them no choice but to help.

The Genophage cure would be irrelevant to a renegade Shepard. He doesn't play by those rules.

I like that.