Zum Inhalt wechseln

Foto

Gamlen's "Hovel" in Low-Town


  • Bitte melde dich an um zu Antworten
130 Antworten in diesem Thema

#26
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge

Gamlen pissed away a large amount of the family fortune on gambling, whores and bad investments, though it wasn't entirely his fault; apparently some lenders forced to pay down a third party's debts. (The details are in WoT Vol. 2, which I don't have in front of me.)

 

Leandra never gets a job or connects with her old friends because she's in the midst of a rather heavy depression, having just lost her home, a child and learning that her family fortune got squandered away. When she learns the truth, she perks up and gets back to work re-acquiring the estate.


  • mrs_anomaly gefällt das

#27
Catilina

Catilina
  • Members
  • 1.916 Beiträge

Gamlen pissed away a large amount of the family fortune on gambling, whores and bad investments, though it wasn't entirely his fault; apparently some lenders forced to pay down a third party's debts. (The details are in WoT Vol. 2, which I don't have in front of me.)

 

Leandra never gets a job or connects with her old friends because she's in the midst of a rather heavy depression, having just lost her home, a child and learning that her family fortune got squandered away. When she learns the truth, she perks up and gets back to work re-acquiring the estate.

Clearly it is not his fault, that he spent the family wealth to whores and gambling... It could be just a accident. (Okay, the bad investments was not entirely his fault. It could just simple his stupidity.) However, this does not sober up him: Gamlen constantly spend his time in the brothel.



#28
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge

Yes, even though he apparently has money troubles, Gamlen apparently isn't so cash-strapped as to halt his visits to the Blooming Rose.

 

I want to note as well that the Hawke family's residence in Gamlen's house does benefit him. He sold his nephews/nieces into indentured servitude to clear up his debts with the Red Iron/Athenril's smugglers, and their continued presence does keep Gamlen's debtors from kicking down the door.


  • SmilesJA und Catilina gefällt das

#29
Beerfish

Beerfish
  • Members
  • 23.819 Beiträge

Yes, even though he apparently has money troubles, Gamlen apparently isn't so cash-strapped as to halt his visits to the Blooming Rose.

 

I want to note as well that the Hawke family's residence in Gamlen's house does benefit him. He sold his nephews/nieces into indentured servitude to clear up his debts with the Red Iron/Athenril's smugglers, and their continued presence does keep Gamlen's debtors from kicking down the door.

Without Gamlen greasing some palms the Hawke crew would have been on the 1st slow boat back to Fereldan. 

 

Also he correctly pointed out that as Leandra was running off to be the wife of a mage it left him totally to look after the parents in their later years.  All of a sudden years later she shows up looking for help and her bratty entitled kids start blasting him for stealing the inheritance.

 

In the end they did not a bad job of redeeming him to some extent by bringing his daughter into the picture,

 

And besides that he was one hell of a wallop player in his day.


  • DebatableBubble und DeathScepter gefällt das

#30
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge

Without Gamlen greasing some palms the Hawke crew would have been on the 1st slow boat back to Fereldan.

 

Technically, Athenril/the Red Iron did the greasing; Gamlen just made contact with them. And again, to pay off his debts to both groups.

 

And besides that he was one hell of a wallop player in his day.

 

Oh, well, all is forgiven then. :P


  • Beerfish gefällt das

#31
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4.314 Beiträge

That, at the very least, is what apostates are to the general populace and in political associations.

Come to think of it, if the mage Warden is assumed to be just a few years older than Carver and Bethany then him/her being discovered and dragged off to the circle could have been what what changed Leandra's parents' minds a little about Malcolm and by extension Leandra herself before they died. Too bad she never wised up.


Nah, I doubt it. They didn't even know the mage Warden.

#32
SmilesJA

SmilesJA
  • Members
  • 3.161 Beiträge

Leandra didn't know that her parents forgave her and left her with the inheritance right?



#33
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge

Leandra didn't know that her parents forgave her and left her with the inheritance right?

 

No, she did not.


  • SmilesJA gefällt das

#34
Beerfish

Beerfish
  • Members
  • 23.819 Beiträge

Leandra didn't know that her parents forgave her and left her with the inheritance right?

How could she when she made ZERO attempt to contact them ever afterwards and wouldn't even come up for the funeral.



#35
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge

What the hell is wallop, anyway? Is it croquet? When I hear "wallop," I imagine people hitting each other with mallets.

 

EDIT: I asked David Gaider and he said it's croquet.



#36
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20.675 Beiträge

Oh, I'm not saying that Gamlen couldn't have lived there. The real problem was his throwing everything away.

 

And it wasn't that he was shafted for any reasons of disfavor, I'm fairly sure; it was because he was terrible with money.

 

Oh, hey, it's Xilizhra ignoring lore, inventing more favorable motivations, and dodging the question. Again. What a surprise.

 

 

 

No one has ever quite provided a satisfactory explanation as to why Gamlen should have been happily shafted out of an inheritance and faithfully waited for decades on the off-chance that Leandra might show up.

 

So, how many decades Xil?

 

How long does Gamlen need to wait before losing everything in various efforts (and lessening the income inequality of a small portion of Thedas) is anyone's 'real' problem but his own?

 

Fourty? Fifty? Forever? If Gamelen dies before Leandra returns, is he supposed to have set up the estate to await the fabled return of her possible children, or would losing the property to the city still be a 'real' problem? What if Leandra had no children? What if she had died?


  • DebatableBubble gefällt das

#37
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20.675 Beiträge

Yes, even though he apparently has money troubles, Gamlen apparently isn't so cash-strapped as to halt his visits to the Blooming Rose.

 

I want to note as well that the Hawke family's residence in Gamlen's house does benefit him. He sold his nephews/nieces into indentured servitude to clear up his debts with the Red Iron/Athenril's smugglers, and their continued presence does keep Gamlen's debtors from kicking down the door.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Gamlen did not sell the Hawkes into slavery to clear up his debts to clear up his debts. His debts were the only thing he had to get the Hawkes into the city.

 

Yes, it does benefit him, but the benefit is a side effect, not the purpose. Cart and horse, and a lack of alternatives.

 

Gamlen does not have the money to bribe the guards on the Hawkes behalf. He does not have the influence or sway. No one claims he does, and the fact that he should but lost it is why his family holds him in contempt. Gamlen's only influence- the only thing he has- is his debts, and the fact that Hawke is the only way for them to get any of it back. In doing so Gamlen assumes greater risk for himself by vouching for Hawke, someone he doesn't even know.

 

Gamlen does not have any other means to get the Hawkes into the city. At no point is it suggested or implied that, if he had, he wouldn't have.

 

Nor does Gamlen have any means to force or compel the Hawkes into this arrangement- they're looking to him for ways to get into the city, not the other way around. It is the best he can offer them, the only way he can, and if they don't like it they do have the option to try for another city.

 

Gamlen does not subject the Hawkes to smuggler or mercenary work to erase a portion of his debts that no one expects him to ever pay back. He does not keep them in his house, at his own expense, to protect himself from debt collectors. He gets them into the city and provides them shelter because they're family.

 

Before condemning Gamlen for getting the Hawkes to the relative safety of a city they were determined to get into, it would be helpful to actually identify what morally superior alternatives he had available but refused to provide.

 

If a job and protection from Templars for a year in exchange for some debt was the best he could offer, why is this a bad thing?

 

What would have been better- to nominate the Hawkes for indentured servitude for a year, but keep his debt?


  • zeypher und DebatableBubble gefällt das

#38
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge

How long does Gamlen need to wait before losing everything in various efforts (and lessening the income inequality of a small portion of Thedas) is anyone's 'real' problem but his own?

Fourty? Fifty? Forever? If Gamelen dies before Leandra returns, is he supposed to have set up the estate to await the fabled return of her possible children, or would losing the property to the city still be a 'real' problem? What if Leandra had no children? What if she had died?


Or, instead of waiting around for the rest of his life, he could just contact her via letter and inform her of their parents' death and subsequent inheritance. Leandra was able to send him letters, after all.

:rolleyes:

Gamlen did not sell the Hawkes into slavery to clear up his debts to clear up his debts. His debts were the only thing he had to get the Hawkes into the city.


That's an amusing way to look at it. "It's a good thing these smugglers/mercenaries were threatening to beat you senseless for cheating them, Uncle Gamlen, or else you would never have been able to sell us into indentured servitude!" :lol:

Let's cut the crap here. Sure, Gamlen was "looking out for his family" by trying to get them into Kirkwall, but he was also trying to save his own ass. The Hawke family landing on his doorstep was an opportunity to get some extremely violent people off his case.

#39
Illegitimus

Illegitimus
  • Members
  • 1.206 Beiträge

Having finally gotten around to re-playing DAII, this is the first thing that struck me as incredibly stupid that I didn't notice the first time around. All those comments about it being a pigsty with cheese in the corners that you recognize from the year before? By then Hawke and his/her family have lived in Gamlen's house - which is larger than anything they can possibly have been used to - for that entire year, after two or three decades living like peasants in Ferelden.

 

It didn't occur to any of them to clean it up?

 

The cheese is in Gamlen's room.  They might clean their own room (which they are sharing) and the common area, but they wouldn't clean his room.  And it is totally possible that they lived in a nicer house in Ferelden.  They were clearly not hired laborers and weren't farmers either.  They lived on the outskirts of Lothering, a prosperous trading town before the influx of refugees, so either Malcolm Hawke had managed to set himself as a merchant, or he was hiring himself out as an apostate mage.  I can totally believe that they could do better than a 3 room walkup in a crime-riddled unsanitary slum.  



#40
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge
I'm willing to sympathize with Gamlen to an extent for being the unfavourite, but let's keep in mind something: this is the same guy who has the following exchange with his niece after he hears she's shacking up with Isabela.



Clearly a bastion of virtue. :P

#41
Catilina

Catilina
  • Members
  • 1.916 Beiträge

I'm willing to sympathize with Gamlen to an extent, but let's keep in mind something: this is the same guy who has the following exchange with his niece after he hears she's shacking up with Isabela.

 

 

Clearly a bastion of virtue.

Uncle Gamlen a dick... 

Fenris and Garret ...and same with the "apostate guy".



#42
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20.675 Beiträge

Or, instead of waiting around for the rest of his life, he could just contact her via letter and inform her of their parents' death and subsequent inheritance. Leandra was able to send him letters, after all.
 

 

He... did. Hence his accusation that she didn't even come for the funeral.

 

Or at least, we have no evidence he didn't try, and she certainly did know and chose not to come, hence her defense that the twins were too young. If she never knew, her defense would have been that, rather than that it was too much of a hassle.

 

 


That's an amusing way to look at it. "It's a good thing these smugglers/mercenaries were threatening to beat you senseless for cheating them, Uncle Gamlen, or else you would never have been able to sell us into indentured servitude!" :lol:

 

 

And yet, it's true. Had Gamlen simply been poor, and not in debt, the Hawkes would have been stuck outside of Kirkwall.
 

Of course, if you were familiar with game theory you'd probably have already caught the dynamics in play.

 

 

Let's cut the crap here. Sure, Gamlen was "looking out for his family" by trying to get them into Kirkwall, but he was also trying to save his own ass. The Hawke family landing on his doorstep was an opportunity to get some extremely violent people off his case.

 

 

Gamlen's ass is already screwed by the people who he still owes debts to, if they want to screw him, when Hawke isn't around.

 

 

And, again, you haven't actually proposed a more moral alternative for Gamlen to pursue. So I'll ask you again- what should have Gamlen done from the moment the Hawkes showed up unannounced?

 

Tried to take a loan? Sold them into indentured servitude to someone he didn't owe a debt to?
 


  • zeypher und DebatableBubble gefällt das

#43
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20.675 Beiträge

I'm willing to sympathize with Gamlen to an extent, but let's keep in mind something: this is the same guy who has the following exchange with his niece after he hears she's shacking up with Isabela.

 

 

 

 

Clearly a bastion of virtue.

 

So what?

 

No, really- so what? What's your point? That he's creepy? Okay. So what beyond that?


  • DebatableBubble gefällt das

#44
SmilesJA

SmilesJA
  • Members
  • 3.161 Beiträge

We know that Leandra was aware that her parents died. She wasn't aware of the fact that her parents left her the inheritance something Gamlen failed to mention.



#45
thats1evildude

thats1evildude
  • Members
  • 10.971 Beiträge
Yes, Gamlen did send a letter to Leandra informing her of their parents' death. And that was the only letter he ever sent. He kept the inheritance secret. I checked WoT Vol. 2 to confirm this.

And yet, it's true. Had Gamlen simply been poor, and not in debt, the Hawkes would have been stuck outside of Kirkwall.

That's some very questionable logic. If he had not squandered the family fortune, he wouldn't need to sell his relatives into indentured servitude. And even if he'd been dirt poor, he could get a loan from someone semi-reputable.

So what?

No, really- so what? What's your point? That he's creepy? Okay. So what beyond that?

You've clearly got a narrative built up in your head wherein Gamlen is some kind of unsung hero or Leandra is an ungrateful ******, but it's in service of a creepy old bastard who betrayed his sister, sold his nephews and nieces into indentured servitude and drove away the only woman who ever loved him.

Gamlen's woes are not entirely his own fault, but he doesn't deserve the level of sympathy you seem eager to give him.
  • Sifr und SmilesJA gefällt das

#46
Sifr

Sifr
  • Members
  • 6.715 Beiträge

How could she when she made ZERO attempt to contact them ever afterwards and wouldn't even come up for the funeral.

 

"I wrote to them when each of you were born. They never wrote back."

 

From this we can see that Leandra made attempts to remain in contact with her parents, but they did not deign to reply during the seven year period between Hawke's birth and that of the twins, where shortly afterwards they died.

 

She sent the same letter to Gamlen, but he never responded prior to their parents death. WoT2 says he wanted to reply when she wrote about Hawke's birth, but couldn't think of anything that didn't sound like an accusation, so he eventually left the letter in a desk and tried to forget about it.

 

Leandra also points out that the twins had just been born when her parents died, so she wasn't in the position to take a lengthy sea voyage across the Narrow Sea to attend the funeral. Either she would have to leave her newborn infants at home or take them across the sea with her, neither of which seem like a good idea.

 

Malcolm could not be expected to look after the infants alone (he can't exactly wet-nurse them), nor could he risk coming with her to Kirkwall and being discovered by the Templars. It's dangerous enough for an apostate in Kirkwall, let alone an escapee from the Gallows who would be recognised by Mages, Templars and by anyone who saw him with Leandra, as it was well-known she eloped with an apostate.


  • Spirit Vanguard gefällt das

#47
Catilina

Catilina
  • Members
  • 1.916 Beiträge

My feelings are ambivalent regarding Gamlen. I don't really hate him, because there are good things, but really hard to like him. He have some actions, what difficult to be forgiven, but he have good moments, for example, I can not say, that he does not like his family. Nevertheless, he jerk and fool them. Burned out, bitter, miserable dick.  I think Gamlen is a well-written character. 


  • Sifr gefällt das

#48
Sifr

Sifr
  • Members
  • 6.715 Beiträge

If Carver is alive, it was nice to see Gamlen serve as a good foil for him and who he might become if he never got over his his envy and bitterness towards his elder sibling, since Gamlen's complaints about Leandra being the golden child are the same as Carver's grousing about Hawke. Was good to Carver demonstrate some self-awareness about this a couple times, realising how much he's starting to sound like his uncle.

 

The entire family seems to reflect the earlier generation, come to think of it. Carver is cut from a similar cloth as Gamlen, Bethany is said to resemble her mother when younger and shares a lot of similar insecurities, while Hawke is often compared to Malcolm.

 

As complicated as his relationship with Leandra seems to be, I think that the reason for his bitterness is because deep down Gamlen was devastated when she eloped with Malcolm, leaving him alone in a big empty house with parents who didn't pay much attention to him. It seems that Gamlen resents Malcolm for taking his sister from him, since he never refers to him as anything other than "that Fereldan apostate" in a seething tone.

 

His lack of fondness for his eldest niece/nephew is probably because Hawke reminds him too much of Malcolm and dredges up bad memories for him, as Leandra was already pregnant with Hawke at the time she left. All of that baggage, made worse in the aftermath of Leandra's murder, seems to be why it takes until the end of the game for his attitude to Hawke to finally soften and admit that his sister may have married a good man.


  • Krypplingz, vertigomez, thesuperdarkone2 und 2 anderen gefällt das

#49
Catilina

Catilina
  • Members
  • 1.916 Beiträge

(Which is why I like Carver as a Templar. It may be a stupid decision, but it's his decision, not a coincidence.)



#50
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20.675 Beiträge

Yes, Gamlen did send a letter to Leandra informing her of their parents' death. And that was the only letter he ever sent. He kept the inheritance secret. I checked WoT Vol. 2 to confirm this.
 

 

And so you're two thirds wrong- he did reach out to her, and he did inform her of the parents death. Keeping the inheritance a secret was never in doubt, but it also was never required for Leandra to come back.

 

 

 

 


That's some very questionable logic.

 

It's a foundation of behavioral psychology and game theory. People want returns on their investment, rather than lose it entirely. It's commonly called the sunk cost fallacy, and it's a major aspect of negotiations.

 

If you've ever heard the saying 'When you owe the bank a thousand dollars, they own you- when you owe the bank a million dollars, you own them,' this is what it touches back to. Getting something for debt you would otherwise never get, rather than nothing, is a very powerful negotiation tool. Without that leverage, Gamlen's just a poor guy asking for a big favor- and so is every other refugee on the docks. Hawke's only distinguishing trait at that point is helping kill some other refugees- hardly compelling cause.

 

 

If he had not squandered the family fortune, he wouldn't need to sell his relatives into indentured servitude.

 

 

And if Leandra hadn't run away, she wouldn't need to sell her children into indentured servitude either- because, let's be frank, if Gamlen is responsible since he benefits from the debts, then Leandra can be responsible as well since she benefits from getting into the safety and then being provided food and shelter. Otherwise, Gamlen's just the middle-man for Hawke's own choice.

 

But hey, why stop there? If Malcom Hawke had chosen another country to be an apostate in, or never chosen to be an apostate at all, the Hawkes wouldn't have fled the Blight. If the Architect hadn't unleashed the Blight, it wouldn't have happened in Ferelden. If Loghaine hadn't abandoned Cailen, we might not have fled at all. And if Corypheus and his band hadn't unleashed the Blight, there wouldn't have been this at all. If we're going to what people could have done before arriving at the city, there are a lot better and more pressing alternatives than Gamlen.

 

But Gamlen did squander the family fortune- after Leandra abandoned the family- long before she came back needing it. There was no reasonable expectation of needing it for her sake, and it's irrelevant to what Gamlen could have done as an alternative at the time of Hawke's arrival.

 

 

And even if he'd been dirt poor, he could get a loan from someone semi-reputable.

 

Why would a semi-reputable lender make massive loans to someone with no ability to pay it back for the express purpose of harboring an apostate? During the midst of a refugee crisis when plenty of other refugees with less risk are also desperate to get in?

 

Moreover, who is this semi-reputable lender? Not Varric, a person who only took note of Hawke and extended an offer because of Hawke's reputation from service or smuggling. The only other lenders we see are the Carta, who are anything but reputable. Black-market merchants, those who might take the apostate business, are notoriously predatory and high fees.

 


You've clearly got a narrative built up in your head wherein Gamlen is some kind of unsung hero or Leandra is an ungrateful ******, but it's in service of a creepy old bastard who betrayed his sister, sold his nephews and nieces into indentured servitude and drove away the only woman who ever loved him.

 

 

I don't think Gamlen's a hero. I've never denied he's creepy or old- I just don't think it matters. I also don't think Leandra was betrayed when she abandoned family first and far longer, haven't seen you or anyone else actually offer a better alternative for what he could have done to get the Hawkes in at the time of their arrival from the position he was in, and have precious little context to allocate blame for why an old flame from long ago left him.

 

Gamlen's pitiful and pathetic and has unsightly views. For some strange reason, I don't reserve a special contempt for the unfortunate, nor do I hold them morally responsible for circumstances beyond their control.

 


Gamlen's woes are not entirely his own fault, but he doesn't deserve the level of sympathy you seem eager to give him.

 

I don't advocate any sympathy I wouldn't give to any other unfavored child. I simply dismiss unfounded disdain.

 

Considering you blame Gamlen for the Hawke's circumstances despite all the other actors at play, and without actually providing a more moral alternative he could have done at the time of DA2, you seem eager to blame him regardless of his actual position. He's guilty of selling family into slavery if he helps them, and he'd be abandoning family to worse if he didn't. Unless there is a third option for him at the time- which you continually fail to provide- that's a no-win situation.

 

I don't hold people in contempt for being thrust into no-win situations, nor do I defend such unfairness on the grounds of 'well, he's a creepy old dude.'