130 ответов в этой теме

[thats1evildude]

And so you're two thirds wrong- he did reach out to her, and he did inform her of the parents death. Keeping the inheritance a secret was never in doubt, but it also was never required for Leandra to come back.

 

I checked the book, as I said. He sent one letter informing her of their parents' deaths. Actually, they died a year apart, so Gamlen didn't send a letter until they were both in the ground, when Leandra had just given birth to twins. And he never responded when she wrote him back.

 

It's a foundation of behavioral psychology and game theory. People want returns on their investment, rather than lose it entirely. It's commonly called the sunk cost fallacy, and it's a major aspect of negotiations.

 

I'm aware of the concept. I have no goddamn idea how it applies to owing money to people who will break your legs if you don't pay them.

 

If you owe a loan shark money, then yes, he's initially inclined to leave you unharmed so you can pay him back. But if you can't pay him back, then your only value is as an example to others of what happens when you don't pay. Get my drift?

[thats1evildude]

And if Leandra hadn't run away, she wouldn't need to sell her children into indentured servitude either- because, let's be frank, if Gamlen is responsible since he benefits from the debts, then Leandra can be responsible as well since she benefits from getting into the safety and then being provided food and shelter. Otherwise, Gamlen's just the middle-man for Hawke's own choice.

 

Kind of a false equivalency, bub. Although Leandra did abandon her family in Kirkwall, she did so for reasons that most people would view as "good." She was in love, and she was willing to take on great hardship for her love. Gamlen pissed away the family fortune largely to feed his gambling addiction.

 

Also, two wrongs don't make a right. You can't say "It's OK for Gamlen to do bad things because Leandra did a thing I think was bad."

[ThomasBlaine]

Kind of a false equivalency, bub. Although Leandra did abandon her family in Kirkwall, she did so for reasons that most people would view as "good." She was in love, and she was willing to take on great hardship for her love. Gamlen pissed away the family fortune largely to feed his gambling addiction.

 

Also, two wrongs don't make a right. You can't say "It's OK for Gamlen to do bad things because Leandra did a thing I think was bad."

 

You mean she was willing to run away from her family as a teenager in order to allow a penniless young criminal hunted by the church to take on great hardship on her behalf because they were infatuated, before spawning and raising three children under those circumstances while functioning as nothing more than the household nanny.

 

I don't view that as "good", I view that as far more stupid and irresponsible than bad business decisions and having a gambling addiction that affects only yourself. Realistically, Malcolm should have been killed by Templars and Leandra should have been stranded in Ferelden completely helpless, at best managing to reach her parents and eventually being brought home soiled, humiliated and a walking scandal. And there's literally no worst-case scenario, because the list of alternate fates she could have met along with her children is endless and nearly too horrible to imagine.

 

And really, if Leandra had gone on to marry De Launcet the way her parents planned then Gamlen would have ended up the natural heir in any case. By running away with someone she couldn't legally marry she practically robbed him of his birthright, while also refusing it herself. What we're saying isn't that Gamlen didn't do anything wrong, what we're saying is that Leandra doesn't have nearly as much ground to blame him on as players like to pretend.

[Catilina]

You mean she was willing to run away from her family as a teenager in order to allow a penniless young criminal hunted by the church to take on great hardship on her behalf because they were infatuated, before spawning and raising three children under those circumstances while functioning as nothing more than the household nanny.

 

I don't view that as "good", I view that as far more stupid and irresponsible than bad business decisions and having a gambling addiction that affects only yourself. Realistically, Malcolm should have been killed by Templars and Leandra should have been stranded in Ferelden completely helpless, at best managing to reach her parents and eventually being brought home soiled, humiliated and a walking scandal. And there's literally no worst-case scenario, because the list of alternate fates she could have met along with her children is endless and nearly too horrible to imagine.

 

And really, if Leandra had gone on to marry De Launcet the way her parents planned then Gamlen would have ended up the natural heir in any case. By running away with someone she couldn't legally marry she practically robbed him of his birthright, while also refusing it herself. What we're saying isn't that Gamlen didn't do anything wrong, what we're saying is that Leandra doesn't have nearly as much ground to blame him on as players like to pretend.

Natural. Leandra was unspeakably evil b!tch. She deserved her fate! Poor good, innocent uncle Gamlen!

[Xilizhra]

You mean she was willing to run away from her family as a teenager in order to allow a penniless young criminal hunted by the church to take on great hardship on her behalf because they were infatuated, before spawning and raising three children under those circumstances while functioning as nothing more than the household nanny.

 

I don't view that as "good", I view that as far more stupid and irresponsible than bad business decisions and having a gambling addiction that affects only yourself. Realistically, Malcolm should have been killed by Templars and Leandra should have been stranded in Ferelden completely helpless, at best managing to reach her parents and eventually being brought home soiled, humiliated and a walking scandal. And there's literally no worst-case scenario, because the list of alternate fates she could have met along with her children is endless and nearly too horrible to imagine.

 

And really, if Leandra had gone on to marry De Launcet the way her parents planned then Gamlen would have ended up the natural heir in any case. By running away with someone she couldn't legally marry she practically robbed him of his birthright, while also refusing it herself. What we're saying isn't that Gamlen didn't do anything wrong, what we're saying is that Leandra doesn't have nearly as much ground to blame him on as players like to pretend.

He wasn't penniless, he had a decent chunk of change from his time as a mercenary. Sure, the mage thing was a problem, but there's no indication that the Hawkes were ever poor by Thedosian standards. Also, Malcolm escaped with templar help.

[ThomasBlaine]

Natural. Leandra was unspeakably evil b!tch. She deserved her fate! Poor good, innocent uncle Gamlen!

 

Hehe, I literally didn't say any of that.

 

He wasn't penniless, he had a decent chunk of change from his time as a mercenary. Sure, the mage thing was a problem, but there's no indication that the Hawkes were ever poor by Thedosian standards. Also, Malcolm escaped with templar help.

 

I don't care how "decent" a "chunk of change" he'd saved up from mercenary pay, it shouldn't have been enough to elope to another country without any prospects in the slightest and start a family with a noblewoman who wouldn't work on, and Malcolm escaping with the help of one sympathetic templar doesn't change the reality of a continent-spanning inquisition with dozens of trained killers in every major town wanting him dead for being a danger to society.

 

Imagine a modern young teenage woman from the States running away to the Middle East with a particularly nice ISIS operative on the pay he saved from illegal immigrant labor. For "love". And by that I mean to compare the recklessness of her decision, not how evil or whatever he may or may not be.

[Xilizhra]

I don't care how "decent" a "chunk of change" he'd saved up from mercenary pay, it shouldn't have been enough to elope to another country without any prospects in the slightest and start a family with a noblewoman who wouldn't work on, and Malcolm escaping with the help of one sympathetic templar doesn't change the reality of a continent-spanning inquisition with dozens of trained killers in every major town wanting him dead for being a danger to society.

 

Imagine a modern young teenage woman from the States running away to the Middle East with a particularly nice ISIS operative on the pay he saved from illegal immigrant labor. For "love". And by that I mean to compare the recklessness of her decision, not how evil or whatever he may or may not be.

That analogy is abominable, but I'll move through this one step at a time. For starters, ship fare across the Waking Sea (which is pretty narrow in spots) is evidently not that expensive, given that the family was able to board a ship to Kirkwall despite having to leave so much behind. Getting started in Ferelden might be trickier, though learning what Malcolm's actual career was while there might be helpful. Maybe he spent some time in Denerim as hired help for the town guard; if DAO is any indication, that can be decently lucrative. Of course, they'd have to move on, but they always seemed to run at the sign of templar suspicion, not templar attack; early enough for them to not bother pursuing. While we have to imagine a lot of this, there's no indication that Leandra's decision was particularly stupid unless you want to headcanon things that way; there's certainly no hard proof of it.

[Catilina]

Hehe, I literally didn't say any of that.

 

 

I don't care how "decent" a "chunk of change" he'd saved up from mercenary pay, it shouldn't have been enough to elope to another country without any prospects in the slightest and start a family with a noblewoman who wouldn't work on, and Malcolm escaping with the help of one sympathetic templar doesn't change the reality of a continent-spanning inquisition with dozens of trained killers in every major town wanting him dead for being a danger to society.

 

Imagine a modern young teenage woman from the States running away to the Middle East with a particularly nice ISIS operative on the pay he saved from illegal immigrant labor. For "love". And by that I mean to compare the recklessness of her decision, not how evil or whatever he may or may not be.

Do not be stupid! Malcolm is not a dangerous terrorist! And Leandra not "escaped". Do not forget: Larius convinced Leandra's parents!  But her parents disowned Leandra. 

[ThomasBlaine]

That analogy is abominable, but I'll move through this one step at a time. For starters, ship fare across the Waking Sea (which is pretty narrow in spots) is evidently not that expensive, given that the family was able to board a ship to Kirkwall despite having to leave so much behind. Getting started in Ferelden might be trickier, though learning what Malcolm's actual career was while there might be helpful. Maybe he spent some time in Denerim as hired help for the town guard; if DAO is any indication, that can be decently lucrative. Of course, they'd have to move on, but they always seemed to run at the sign of templar suspicion, not templar attack; early enough for them to not bother pursuing. While we have to imagine a lot of this, there's no indication that Leandra's decision was particularly stupid unless you want to headcanon things that way; there's certainly no hard proof of it.

 

I think the anology is just fine, thank you very much. It sounds more like you're headcanon-ing than I am. And extensively at that. Points for imagination. I'd like to hear you try to convince aforementioned young American women to follow their suspected terrorist paramours to their home countries on the basis of "I'll find odd, violent jobs and we'll just keep moving around before they can catch us." Romantic maybe, but newsflash: romance is cheap. Extremely stupid and irresponsible behavior isn't.

 

Do not be stupid! Malcolm is not a dangerous terrorist! And Leandra not "escaped". Do not forget: Larius convinced Leandra parents!  But her parents disowned Leandra. 

 

That's very nice, Catilina.

[Catilina]

I think the anology is just fine, thank you very much. It sounds more like you're headcanon-ing than I am. And extensively at that. Points for imagination. I'd like to hear you try to convince aforementioned young American women to follow their suspected terrorist paramours to their home countries on the basis of "I'll find odd, violent jobs and we'll just keep moving around before they can catch us." Romantic maybe, but newsflash: romance is cheap. Extremely stupid and irresponsible behavior isn't.

 

That's very nice, Catilina.

My sweet ****! Malcolm was not a terroris! Oh my... this is a terrible analogy!

[Xilizhra]

I think the anology is just fine, thank you very much. It sounds more like you're headcanon-ing than I am. And extensively at that. Points for imagination. I'd like to hear you try to convince aforementioned young American women to follow their suspected terrorist paramours to their home countries on the basis of "I'll find odd, violent jobs and we'll just keep moving around before they can catch us." Romantic, maybe. Extremely stupid and irresponsible? Oh yes.

Something that is not headcanon is that Larius fixed Malcolm's and Leandra's travel issues in exchange for Malcolm reinforcing Corypheus' prison seal. And the terrorism analogy doesn't work because of a total lack of an international criminal database or any other sort of tools to enable a coordinated hunt for a guy who keeps moving around without leaving a trail of destruction in his wake. I don't think most templars would consider his cross-country pursuit a high priority.

[Catilina]

Something that is not headcanon is that Larius fixed Malcolm's and Leandra's travel issues in exchange for Malcolm reinforcing Corypheus' prison seal. And the terrorism analogy doesn't work because of a total lack of an international criminal database or any other sort of tools to enable a coordinated hunt for a guy who keeps moving around without leaving a trail of destruction in his wake. I don't think most templars would consider his cross-country pursuit a high priority.

You're right, but totally unnecessary to justify... If s/he did not understand at first, this is a terrible analogy, then you can write whatever... Bah... terrorist ... idiot idea.

[ThomasBlaine]

Something that is not headcanon is that Larius fixed Malcolm's and Leandra's travel issues in exchange for Malcolm reinforcing Corypheus' prison seal. And the terrorism analogy doesn't work because of a total lack of an international criminal database or any other sort of tools to enable a coordinated hunt for a guy who keeps moving around without leaving a trail of destruction in his wake. I don't think most templars would consider his cross-country pursuit a high priority.

 

"Oh yes, honey, remember how we've been planning on running away penniless and you're already months pregnant with our child? Yeah, here I am with a contingent of Grey Wardens outside your parents' door threatening them to release you so we can run away. They gave me some money too. No, not a fortune but enough to get by for a while. Why? Don't worry about that, let's just go before the priests with the swords get here."

 

Mhm.

 

A total lack of criminal database certainly didn't prevent neighbors from wanting to squeal on Bethany or Hawke, or Malcolm or Anders from being caught by the circle in the first place. From the Thedosian public's point of view, apostates are dangerous individuals who flee the government, hiding among civilians, kill people in horrible ways and potentially go nuts and kill a lot of people all at once in big spectacles, facilitated by their unique access to incredible firepower, forcing the Templars to crack down and maintain order which is hard on everyone. Very similar to modern terrorists in social terms.

 

Any sensible person's reaction to hearing that you wanted to run away with one would be roughly the same. And all of that is ignoring the insanity of trying to raise a family in hiding and moving from place to place in an environment where you don't have anything to offer the world. What woman would deliberately choose that for herself and her children if she had any sense whatsoever?

[Xilizhra]

"Oh yes, honey, remember how we've been planning on running away penniless and you're already months pregnant with our child? Yeah, here I am with a contingent of Grey Wardens outside your parents' door threatening them to release you so we can run away. They gave me some money too. No, not a fortune but enough to get by for a while. Why? Don't worry about that, let's just go before the priests with the swords get here."

 

Mhm.

 

A total lack of criminal database certainly didn't prevent neighbors from wanting to squeal on Bethany or Hawke, or Malcolm or Anders from being caught by the circle in the first place. From the Thedosian public's point of view, apostates are dangerous individuals who flee the government, hiding among civilians, kill people in horrible ways and potentially go nuts and kill a lot of people all at once in big spectacles, facilitated by their unique access to incredible firepower, forcing the Templars to crack down and maintain order which is hard on everyone. Very similar to modern terrorists in social terms.

 

Any sensible person's reaction to hearing that you wanted to run away with one would be roughly the same as well. And all of that is ignoring the insanity of trying to raise a family in hiding and moving from place to place in an environment where you don't have anything to offer the world. What woman would deliberately choose that for herself and her children if she had any sense whatsoever?

Actually, Malcolm himself was never a security breach; he was perfectly capable of hiding his own magic. Any security breaches that did occur did so because of Bethany, and possibly the older Hawke child if she was a mage. The Hawke family settled in Lothering in 9:20 Dragon, when Bethany was 8; if Hawke wasn't a mage, unless Bethany manifested magic abnormally early, the only period of running would have been in a window of about 2-3 years at most.

[Catilina]

"Oh yes, honey, remember how we've been planning on running away penniless and you're already months pregnant with our child? Yeah, here I am with a contingent of Grey Wardens outside your parents' door threatening them to release you so we can run away. They gave me some money too. No, not a fortune but enough to get by for a while. Why? Don't worry about that, let's just go before the priests with the swords get here."

 

Mhm.

 

A total lack of criminal database certainly didn't prevent neighbors from wanting to squeal on Bethany or Hawke, or Malcolm or Anders from being caught by the circle in the first place. From the Thedosian public's point of view, apostates are dangerous individuals who flee the government, hiding among civilians, kill people in horrible ways and potentially go nuts and kill a lot of people all at once in big spectacles, facilitated by their unique access to incredible firepower, forcing the Templars to crack down and maintain order which is hard on everyone. Very similar to modern terrorists in social terms.

 

Any sensible person's reaction to hearing that you wanted to run away with one would be roughly the same. And all of that is ignoring the insanity of trying to raise a family in hiding and moving from place to place in an environment where you don't have anything to offer the world. What woman would deliberately choose that for herself and her children if she had any sense whatsoever?

The analogy still IDIOT. Why? "The Thedosian public's point of view, apostates are dangerous individuals who flee the government" But not the Amells' point of wiev. The Amells do not was simple ignorant peasants, they know the mages. They are not considered mages as terrorists. more likely they afraid of a new mage-born kid, and they lose their power, and fortune. My opinion.

 

I think is about the family's noble position, not about the "civic duty", or the city' safety or for the Chantry's bless! This is evidenced by the fact that they eventually forgiven to Leandra, but it was too late.

 

The Amell's title and fortunes finally lost by a "normal" child, and regained a mage (If your Hawke are mage). 

[ThomasBlaine]

Actually, Malcolm himself was never a security breach; he was perfectly capable of hiding his own magic. Any security breaches that did occur did so because of Bethany, and possibly the older Hawke child if she was a mage. The Hawke family settled in Lothering in 9:20 Dragon, when Bethany was 8; if Hawke wasn't a mage, unless Bethany manifested magic abnormally early, the only period of running would have been in a window of about 2-3 years at most.

 

None of which is relevant to Leandra's decision of running away with him. All she knew was what she'd been told about mages and how young women who throw away their lives in flights of fancy tend to fare in the world. That she chose as she did shows extremely poor judgment no matter how lucky she ended up getting. Extremely poor judgment that she still exhibits three decades later.

 

The analogy still IDIOT. Why? "The Thedosian public's point of view, apostates are dangerous individuals who flee the government" But not the Amells' point of wiev. The Amells do not was simple ignorant peasants, they know the mages. They are not considered mages as terrorists. more likely they afraid of a new mage-born kid, and they lose their power, and fortune. My opinion.

 

I think is about the family's noble position, not about the "civic duty", or the city' safety or for the Chantry's bless! This is evidenced by the fact that they eventually forgiven to Leandra, but it was too late.

 

The Amell's title and fortunes finally lost by a "normal" child, and regained a mage (If your Hawke are mage). 

 

Yes, because we all know that the rich and privileged are so much more tolerant of criminals, social pariahs and shady, foreign young men without prospects who want their daughters than the rest of us.

 

[thats1evildude]

You mean she was willing to run away from her family as a teenager in order to allow a penniless young criminal hunted by the church to take on great hardship on her behalf because they were infatuated, before spawning and raising three children under those circumstances while functioning as nothing more than the household nanny.

 

I don't view that as "good", I view that as far more stupid and irresponsible than bad business decisions and having a gambling addiction that affects only yourself. Realistically, Malcolm should have been killed by Templars and Leandra should have been stranded in Ferelden completely helpless, at best managing to reach her parents and eventually being brought home soiled, humiliated and a walking scandal. And there's literally no worst-case scenario, because the list of alternate fates she could have met along with her children is endless and nearly too horrible to imagine.

 

And really, if Leandra had gone on to marry De Launcet the way her parents planned then Gamlen would have ended up the natural heir in any case. By running away with someone she couldn't legally marry she practically robbed him of his birthright, while also refusing it herself. What we're saying isn't that Gamlen didn't do anything wrong, what we're saying is that Leandra doesn't have nearly as much ground to blame him on as players like to pretend.

 

No one ever tells stories or songs about the dutiful daughter who rejected the love of her life so she can enter the arranged marriage her parents wanted.

 

No wait, they do. They're called "tragedies."

[ThomasBlaine]

No one ever tells stories or songs about the dutiful daughter who rejected the love of her life so she can enter the arranged marriage her parents wanted.

 

No wait, they do. They're called "tragedies."

 

No one ever tells the stories or songs about rebellious young daughters who thought they could make it in the wide world with their crushes and forsook all opportunity for safety and security in life.

 

No wait, that's the story you'd hear from every other hard-eyed prostitute and starving beggar crowded into a tiny brothel, walking the street, lying at the bottom of a river and buried in a shallow, unmarked grave without their child.

 

And funnily enough, I've never based an important life decision with potentially very dire and predictable consequences for my future on whether or not the song sung about it would be exciting. Going out on a limb, most pregnant women probably don't do that either.

[Catilina]

No one ever tells the stories or songs about rebellious young daughters who thought they could make it in the wide world with their crushes and forsook all opportunity for safety and security in life.

 

No wait, that's the story you'd hear from every other hard-eyed prostitute and starving beggar crowded into tiny brothels, walking the streets, lying at the bottoms of rivers and buried in shallow, unmarked graves with their children everywhere in the world.

 

And funnily enough, I've never based an important life decision with potentially very dire and predictable consequences for my future on whether or not the song sung about it would be exciting. Going out on a limb, most pregnant women probably don't do that either.

And the parents do disown her, because they want the best for her. They do not defend her, no! They disown. Because they want the best for her. I believe. Really!

[thats1evildude]

No one ever tells the stories or songs about rebellious young daughters who thought they could make it in the wide world with their crushes and forsook all opportunity for safety and security in life.

 

LOLWUT

 

Read the Star-Crossed Lovers trope some time. You'll see a common thread:

 

Boy or girl breaks away from family or overcomes racial tensions to be with their love=Happy story

Boy or girl overcomes racial tensions to be with their love=Happy story

Boy or girl forsakes love to enter arranged marriage=Horrible tragedy

Boy or girl is kept from love by imprisonment or death=Horrible tragedy

 

God, even Leliana tells a story like that: Alindra and her Solider.

 

 

Sure, we all know that reality is harsh and love easily sours in the face of bad circumstances, but that doesn't mean that we stop telling love stories.

[Xilizhra]

None of which is relevant to Leandra's decision of running away with him. All she knew was what she'd been told about mages and how young women who throw away their lives in flights of fancy tend to fare in the world. That she chose as she did shows extremely poor judgment no matter how lucky she ended up getting. Extremely poor judgment that she still exhibits three decades later.

So, because other people were wrong about mages, she's the one with poor judgment?

[ThomasBlaine]

Sure, we all know that reality is harsh and love easily sours in the face of bad circumstances, but that doesn't mean that we stop telling love stories.

 

I'm not sure how the second part of that statement is supposed to outweigh the first one for people making important decisions about their lives.

 

So, because other people were wrong about mages, she's the one with poor judgment?

 

Being open-minded about someone with a controversial background you've only spent a little time with is one thing. Tying your otherwise safe and privileged future to such a person and running to a land you've never seen where you don't know how to feed yourself and have to hide from the government and the religious zealots roving the countryside looking for people like your husband to kill and enslave and people like yourself who harbors such to imprison to have your children is quite another.

 

So yes, she has poor judgment.

[Xilizhra]

Uhm... what's your point?

 

 

Being open-minded about someone with a controversial background you've only spent a little time with is one thing. Tying your otherwise safe and privileged future to such a person and running to a land you've never seen where you don't know how to feed yourself and have to hide from the government and the religious zealots roving the countryside looking for people like your husband to kill and enslave and people like yourself who harbors such to imprison to have your children is quite another.

 

So yes, she's the one with poor judgment.

Well, the future is already seriously in question if she's pregnant, keep in mind. And it's not like the government is particularly hard to hide from, either.

[ThomasBlaine]

Well, the future is already seriously in question if she's pregnant, keep in mind. And it's not like the government is particularly hard to hide from, either.

 

Her parents have already decided to keep and protect and not disown her for becoming pregnant out of wedlock, so it's far less uncertain than her prospects with Malcolm, and Leandra literally grew up in the shadows of both the Chantry cathedral and the Viscount's keep in the most regulated part of the city. The idea of the government "not being particularly hard to hide from" wouldn't come easily to her.

[Xilizhra]

Her parents have already decided to keep and protect and not disown her for becoming pregnant out of wedlock, so it's far less uncertain than her prospects with Malcolm, and Leandra literally grew up in the shadows of both the Chantry cathedral and the Viscount's keep in the most regulated part of the city. The idea of the government "not being particularly hard to hide from" wouldn't come easily to her.

That was in the Threnhold era, where the viscount's office and the templars were actively at odds.