179 réponses à ce sujet

[CuriousArtemis]

Quality over quantity for me, I prefer the Bioware romances.

 

I think you missed my point...

[SmilesJA]

I think you missed my point...

 

Eh I don't think the Skyrim romances were that plentiful.

[Jedi Comedian]

Eh I don't think the Skyrim romances were that plentiful.

They're pretty much Express Marriages.

Dragonborn: "Nice to meet you, I'm..."

Stranger: "That an Amulet of Mara? Let's get ****** married!

[Xilizhra]

Kelly is. If you import a romance with her from ME2 to ME3 and then complete that, you get the Paramour achievement. 

She also only has two scenes in the game and doesn't even appear in Citadel. No one could intellectually honestly say that's truly enough to qualify as "full."

[daveliam]

I have nothing useful to add except: dave _____ .

 

 

Also, randomly to Dave's post, can't both Cullen and Josephine be classified as warrior and rogue respectively? Cullen is a templar, so he's obviously a warrior, and Josephine dabbled with bard stuff in her youth, so I'd think that qualifies as sufficiently roguish. To phrase it another way, if Cullen had been a gay or bi LI, he would have satisfied the gay/bi KISA category, even though he doesn't fill a party slot as a warrior. To my mind, that adds another straight male warrior, and bi female rogue to the statistics.

 

(Although I grant that it is more of a stretch for Josephine.)

 

Yeah, I thought about that too.  But I figured I'd just stick with the facts.  Although Cullen is definitely a straight male warrior in "reality".  Josephine's kind of tougher because she's not really a rogue, but I see how her past as a bard puts her in that same category, for sure.

 

She also only has two scenes in the game and doesn't even appear in Citadel. No one could intellectually honestly say that's truly enough to qualify as "full."

 

I consider Kelly a "full" romance because I consider anyone who grants the romance achievements to be a "full" romance and anyone who doesn't to just be a "flirt/fling".  So I didn't consider Kelly a full romance during ME2, but when she returned in ME3 and granted the paramour achievement, I considered her full romance.  That's the criterion that I choose to use for this.  I recognize that all romances aren't "equal", so trying to come up with other criteria just leads to arguments about how So-and-So "doesn't count" because "reason".  The romance achievement, in my opinion, is the most objective way to do it because it's clear from the developers perspective.

[nightscrawl]

I consider Kelly a "full" romance because I consider anyone who grants the romance achievements to be a "full" romance and anyone who doesn't to just be a "flirt/fling".  So I didn't consider Kelly a full romance during ME2, but when she returned in ME3 and granted the paramour achievement, I considered her full romance.  That's the criterion that I choose to use for this.  I recognize that all romances aren't "equal", so trying to come up with other criteria just leads to arguments about how So-and-So "doesn't count" because "reason".  The romance achievement, in my opinion, is the most objective way to do it because it's clear from the developers perspective.

I think that's a fair way to do it.

[Dai Grepher]

No.

Don't dismiss it so quickly. If Tevinter is the next setting, then heterosexuality will be the most likely characteristic anyway. Even among the slave class where homosexuality is encouraged, the slaves may see that as a state of oppression since the magisters only encourage it for their own entertainment purposes. Homosexploitation. They might see it as just another shackle to throw off.

What does this even mean? It sounds like they'd be less of a character and more of a customizable sex doll. Do not want.

No more so than your own playable character is a "sex doll" for the BioWare-made LIs. It means you would have a list of backgrounds to choose from, as well as a list of personalities. After you select those as well as the custom LI's sexual preferences, then you go to the custom character creator. There is a list of presets, as usual, and you can customize any of those presets to your liking. And there you go, a romancible that fits your custom protagonist.

And if you're still not sold...

The LI's race would also be customizable. Which means female dwarf or female qunari.

Dave's list of LIs and their specs, they would all read 100%.

Also, on a side note, I would add that Anora should be included in the list. She wasn't romancible in the same way as the others, but the fact still remains that the male human noble can be happily married to her.

[daveliam]

I have to say that the idea of a customizable LI isn't something that I hate outright. I just don't think it has a place in Bioware games. They pride themselves on being devs that storytelling and crafting unique and well-developed characters. A customizable LI wouldn't allow that because it would be so pigeon holded into a generic background that works for all combinations that I just don't see that fitting with Bioware's way of doing it. Or, to accommodate all combinations, it would take such a giant amount of resources to make it work.

That being said, in a different game series, like Dragon's Dogma, I could see it working.

With regard to Anora, again, using the criteria that I use, she doesn't count. That game HAD romance achievements. The devs chose not to include one for her so that leads me to believe that they didn't see her as an LI. So I don't count her. YMMV, obviously.

[nightscrawl]

Don't dismiss it so quickly. If Tevinter is the next setting, then heterosexuality will be the most likely characteristic anyway. Even among the slave class where homosexuality is encouraged, the slaves may see that as a state of oppression since the magisters only encourage it for their own entertainment purposes. Homosexploitation. They might see it as just another shackle to throw off.

You are misunderstanding something in the wording of the Sexuality in Thedas codex. The line regarding Tevinter is, "In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."

 

This is only referring to homosexual behavior engaged in by nobles. They don't give a damn what the sexuality of their slaves is. Homosexuality is not specifically encouraged (or discouraged) "among" slaves because it's not required. If a master wants to violate one of his slaves, he is going to do that.

 

The attitude is, "You're gay? Yeah, we don't care, just go screw one of your slaves to get it out of your system and don't bother anyone with it."

[Jedi Comedian]

You are misunderstanding something in the wording of the Sexuality in Thedas codex. The line regarding Tevinter is, "In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."

This is only referring to homosexual behavior engaged in by nobles. They don't give a damn what the sexuality of their slaves is. Homosexuality is not specifically encouraged (or discouraged) "among" slaves because it's not required. If a master wants to violate one of his slaves, he is going to do that.

The attitude is, "You're gay? Yeah, we don't care, just go screw one of your slaves to get it out of your system and don't bother anyone with it."

I disagree, certain Zevran/Anders dialogue demonstrates there is some kind of homophobia in Thedas, although nothing too serious.

[phoray]

I disagree, certain Zevran/Anders dialogue demonstrates there is some kind of homophobia in Thedas, although nothing too serious.

 

I always kinda thought that dialogue didn't mesh with the World of Thedas as it has been described and that it was the writers catering to the players from The World of Earth. 

[vertigomez]

Don't dismiss it so quickly. If Tevinter is the next setting, then heterosexuality will be the most likely characteristic anyway. Even among the slave class where homosexuality is encouraged, the slaves may see that as a state of oppression since the magisters only encourage it for their own entertainment purposes. Homosexploitation. They might see it as just another shackle to throw off.

That's not how homosexuality works. A gay slave can't just throw their gayness out the window because their master is a rapist tool. There's no "most likely characteristic" because sexuality doesn't care if you're noble or freeborn or a member of the Qun.
 

No more so than your own playable character is a "sex doll" for the BioWare-made LIs. It means you would have a list of backgrounds to choose from, as well as a list of personalities. After you select those as well as the custom LI's sexual preferences, then you go to the custom character creator. There is a list of presets, as usual, and you can customize any of those presets to your liking. And there you go, a romancible that fits your custom protagonist.

And if you're still not sold...

The LI's race would also be customizable. Which means female dwarf or female qunari.

Dave's list of LIs and their specs, they would all read 100%.

Your character already is a doll, by virtue of the fact that you can modify their looks, voice, personality, and choose their background. They're an avatar with only as much personality as your chosen dialogue options give them. That's not up for debate.

But you know how you can style your own hair, but you don't get to go on a date with someone and start changing everything that makes them who they are? You don't get to change their skin color or sexuality or give them plastic surgery because they're not to your tastes. If this were The Sims, sure, have at it - but in a world like DA with thoughtfully constructed fleshed out characters, just... no.

I don't give a crap about a romanceable dwarf or qunari if they're just a mannequin.

[Jedi Comedian]

That's not how homosexuality works. A gay slave can't just throw their gayness out the window because their master is a rapist tool.

And what if the slave is not a homosexual to begin with?

[nightscrawl]

That's not how homosexuality works. A gay slave can't just throw their gayness out the window because their master is a rapist tool. There's no "most likely characteristic" because sexuality doesn't care if you're noble or freeborn or a member of the Qun.
 

Your character already is a doll, by virtue of the fact that you can modify their looks, voice, personality, and choose their background. They're an avatar with only as much personality as your chosen dialogue options give them. That's not up for debate.

But you know how you can style your own hair, but you don't get to go on a date with someone and start changing everything that makes them who they are? You don't get to change their skin color or sexuality or give them plastic surgery because they're not to your tastes. If this were The Sims, sure, have at it - but in a world like DA with thoughtfully constructed fleshed out characters, just... no.

I don't give a crap about a romanceable dwarf or qunari if they're just a mannequin.

 

Yeah, that's the thing with this request. ALL of the LIs to date, whether you like or dislike them, have their own unique personality, backstory, morals, perspective, and so on that make them an unique person. Dorian is who he is because of his background. Isabela is who she is because of her background. Sera is who she is because of her background. On and on.

 

The devs craft these romances and relationships with a full person. They don't craft them with just a robust, swarthy, mustachioed, gay, human male mage; or a buxom, bisexual, human female rogue with brown skin and black hair; or a pale, blonde, willowy, freckle-faced, young, lesbian, elf female rogue. That's not how they do things.

[vertigomez]

And what if the slave is not a homosexual to begin with?

Then they're not gay and their master is still a rapist tool. :/// What does that have to do with anything?

Yeah, that's the thing with this request. ALL of the LIs to date, whether you like or dislike them, have their own unique personality, backstory, morals, perspective, and so on that make them an unique person. Dorian is who he is because of his background. Isabela is who she is because of her background. Sera is who she is because of her background. On and on.
 
The devs craft these romances and relationships with a full person. They don't craft them with just a robust, swarthy, mustachioed, gay, human male mage; or a buxom, bisexual, human female rogue with brown skin and black hair; or a pale, blonde, willowy, freckle-faced, young, lesbian, elf female rogue. That's not how they do things.

[Jedi Comedian]

The devs craft these romances and relationships with a full person. They don't craft them with just a robust, swarthy, mustachioed, gay, human male mage; or a buxom, bisexual, human female rogue with brown skin and black hair; or a pale, blonde, willowy, freckle-faced, young, lesbian, elf female rogue. That's not how they do things.

Cortez, Traynor and Juhani are better examples IMHO, but think what you will.

[nightscrawl]

Spoiler

LOL I just watched that (again) a short while ago. If I hadn't I wouldn't recognize the scene XD.

[Dai Grepher]

I have to say that the idea of a customizable LI isn't something that I hate outright. I just don't think it has a place in Bioware games. They pride themselves on being devs that storytelling and crafting unique and well-developed characters. A customizable LI wouldn't allow that because it would be so pigeon holded into a generic background that works for all combinations that I just don't see that fitting with Bioware's way of doing it. Or, to accommodate all combinations, it would take such a giant amount of resources to make it work.

No, it would have a variety of backgrounds. Various nationalities, various experiences, various philosophies. Any combination could be put together. It's all a flag check. The LI is a Grey Warden? Access this set of dialogue. The LI is Andrastian? Access this set of dialogue. The LI is Orlesian? Access this set of dialogue. If set up properly, it would be easy to pull off.

With regard to Anora, again, using the criteria that I use, she doesn't count. That game HAD romance achievements. The devs chose not to include one for her so that leads me to believe that they didn't see her as an LI. So I don't count her. YMMV, obviously.

Yeah, but achievements shouldn't matter. She's one of the only two characters that the PC can marry and actually spend years with before being pulled away by BioWare and their can-kicking ways.

You are misunderstanding something in the wording of the Sexuality in Thedas codex. The line regarding Tevinter is, "In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."
 
This is only referring to homosexual behavior engaged in by nobles. They don't give a damn what the sexuality of their slaves is.

Right... that was my impression of that line. Nobles considered it deviant for nobles, but not for the slaves. Meaning, nobles should not engage in it at all, but slaves are encouraged to with other slaves.

If you are trying to suggest that a Tevinter noble is allowed to engage in homosexual sex with a slave, then I understand the line could be interpreted that way, but that wasn't what it seemed like to me. Dorian's story arc also implied that homosexuality is not tolerated among the nobility at all. Hence Halward turning to blood magic.

Homosexuality is not specifically encouraged (or discouraged) "among" slaves because it's not required. If a master wants to violate one of his slaves, he is going to do that.

Eh, that's an argument for rape though, not homosexual rape. Meaning, rape with no mention of sexual preference. The way the line is worded it makes it sound like the Magisters encourage their slaves to engage in homosexual acts with each other. Not that Magisters are encouraged to engage in homosexuality with their slaves. Ha ha. I mean seriously, can you imagine if BioWare actually said that? Tevinter Magisters are encouraged to engage in homosexuality with those who are enslaved to them and have no free will of their own? Man, the crap storm that would bring.

The attitude is, "You're gay? Yeah, we don't care, just go screw one of your slaves to get it out of your system and don't bother anyone with it."

Ohhhh no. That's not how Dorian put it. He said that a trait like his is considered undesirable. Something in need of drastic change. Hence blood magic.

[Dai Grepher]

I always kinda thought that dialogue didn't mesh with the World of Thedas as it has been described and that it was the writers catering to the players from The World of Earth.

Wrong way 'round. The original dialogue was accurate. The new claims about sexuality in Thedas are meant to cater to some in this world's population.

That's not how homosexuality works. A gay slave can't just throw their gayness out the window because their master is a rapist tool. There's no "most likely characteristic" because sexuality doesn't care if you're noble or freeborn or a member of the Qun.

Um... well, it's a good thing that you don't know how sex slavery works, but my point was that many of these slaves would see homosexual conduct as something that was FORCED on them by their oppressors. Like how Zevran was sold as a young child and exposed to such things. Would he have been bisexual had he been raised in a Dalish clan for example?

Your character already is a doll, by virtue of the fact that you can modify their looks, voice, personality, and choose their background. They're an avatar with only as much personality as your chosen dialogue options give them. That's not up for debate.

Of course it's up for debate. If the custom protag is a "doll" then so is every character by that same standard. And that's not just video games but movies as well.

But you know how you can style your own hair, but you don't get to go on a date with someone and start changing everything that makes them who they are? You don't get to change their skin color or sexuality or give them plastic surgery because they're not to your tastes. If this were The Sims, sure, have at it - but in a world like DA with thoughtfully constructed fleshed out characters, just... no.

You're being very closed-minded. I didn't suggest you would be able to place the custom LI in front of the Mirror of Transformation any time you wanted. The character would be defined and then let into the game, just as any NPC or companion character.

I don't give a crap about a romanceable dwarf or qunari if they're just a mannequin.

They would have various backstories to choose from. Carta, smith, noble, surfacer, etc. And regardless of what the custom LI would be, if you don't want that, don't choose to make one.

Yeah, that's the thing with this request. ALL of the LIs to date, whether you like or dislike them, have their own unique personality, backstory, morals, perspective, and so on that make them an unique person. Dorian is who he is because of his background. Isabela is who she is because of her background. Sera is who she is because of her background. On and on.

Yeah? And the custom LI would have a backstory and personality as well.

The devs craft these romances and relationships with a full person. They don't craft them with just a robust, swarthy, mustachioed, gay, human male mage; or a buxom, bisexual, human female rogue with brown skin and black hair; or a pale, blonde, willowy, freckle-faced, young, lesbian, elf female rogue. That's not how they do things.

Or is it? They come up with backgrounds, personalities, and beliefs, and then they make a model to house those characteristics. So why can't the players choose their appearance? We get to choose how the custom protagonist looks, don't we?

[Yermogi]

Ohhhh no. That's not how Dorian put it. He said that a trait like his is considered undesirable. Something in need of drastic change. Hence blood magic.

Actually, the main point of contention between Dorian and his family was not that he was gay, it was that he wouldn't hide that part of him away and play along with their plans for him. He "wouldn't marry the girl, play the part." He refused to hide how he truly felt for the sake of appearances, and THAT was what caused his father to resort to blood magic. It was implied that if Dorian had kept his "unusual appetites" a secret and played along with his father's plans, then his father wouldn't have felt that he needed to do blood magic.

[nightscrawl]

If you are trying to suggest that a Tevinter noble is allowed to engage in homosexual sex with a slave, then I understand the line could be interpreted that way, but that wasn't what it seemed like to me. Dorian's story arc also implied that homosexuality is not tolerated among the nobility at all. Hence Halward turning to blood magic.

The line literally says, "WITH favored slaves."

[Jedi Comedian]

Wrong way 'round. The original dialogue was accurate. The new claims about sexuality in Thedas are meant to cater to some in this world's population.


Um... well, it's a good thing that you don't know how sex slavery works, but my point was that many of these slaves would see homosexual conduct as something that was FORCED on them by their oppressors. Like how Zevran was sold as a young child and exposed to such things. Would he have been bisexual had he been raised in a Dalish clan for example?

Of course he wouldn't. Being able to seduce anyone is a trait the Crows teach to make their (slaves) recruits better infiltrators.

[vertigomez]

... well, it's a good thing that you don't know how sex slavery works, but my point was that many of these slaves would see homosexual conduct as something that was FORCED on them by their oppressors.

And my point was that a rapist is a rapist no matter what, and so it's not about 'homosexual conduct' but unwanted sexual contact.
 
 

Like how Zevran was sold as a young child and exposed to such things. Would he have been bisexual had he been raised in a Dalish clan for example?

Of course he wouldn't.

oh jfc

[Yermogi]

Of course he wouldn't. Being able to seduce anyone is a trait the Crows teach to make their (slaves) recruits better infiltrators.

There's no telling if Zevran would or would not have been bisexual had he been raised Dalish. Nurture Over Nature is a debate that I think is suited for a different place than here, especially since that would only cause escalation and arguments.

 

However, I will say that, had Zevran shown an inclination towards other men in a Dalish tribe, I'm fairly certain that the elders would have steered him straight towards women (and I mean that in a directional sense). It is implied that the Dalish frown on homosexual relationships because they want as many children as they can have (due to a low population), and naturally you can't have biological children in a homosexual relationship. I highly doubt that if you're gay you're ostracized from the clan among the Dalish, but you'd probably be pressured to "try" to have a heterosexual relationship for the sake of offspring. If Zevran had been Dalish, regardless of attraction towards men, he would have been expected to settle down and have a family.

 

EDIT: Also, in Origins, I'm fairly certain that if you romance him and you ask about his gender preferences, Zevran will say that he prefers whichever one you are. So, since I played a female, he said he preferred women. If you play a male, he'll say he prefers men. So saying that he would or wouldn't be bi had he not been raised a Crow is basically an impossible thing to be certain of.

[Jedi Comedian]

And my point was that a rapist is a rapist no matter what, and so it's not about 'homosexual conduct' but unwanted sexual contact.





oh jfc

?