179 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Comedian]

There's no telling if Zevran would or would not have been bisexual had he been raised Dalish. Nurture Over Nature is a debate that I think is suited for a different place than here, especially since that would only cause escalation and arguments.

However, I will say that, had Zevran shown an inclination towards other men in a Dalish tribe, I'm fairly certain that the elders would have steered him straight towards women (and I mean that in a directional sense). It is implied that the Dalish frown on homosexual relationships because they want as many children as they can have (due to a low population), and naturally you can't have biological children in a homosexual relationship. I highly doubt that if you're gay you're ostracized from the clan among the Dalish, but you'd probably be pressured to "try" to have a heterosexual relationship for the sake of offspring. If Zevran had been Dalish, regardless of attraction towards men, he would have been expected to settle down and have a family.

EDIT: Also, in Origins, I'm fairly certain that if you romance him and you ask about his gender preferences, Zevran will say that he prefers whichever one you are. So, since I played a female, he said he preferred women. If you play a male, he'll say he prefers men. So saying that he would or wouldn't be bi had he not been raised a Crow is basically an impossible thing to be certain of.

If you romance him as a man, he tell you he prefers women. And he says he's bi 'cause he grew up in a brothel and experienced with prostitutes of either gender, also because Crow training.

[vertigomez]

If you romance him as a man, he tell you he prefers women.

He does say he prefers women. Lots of bisexual people lean one way or the other.
 

And he says he's bi 'cause he grew up in a brothel and experienced with prostitutes of either gender, also because Crow training.

He grew up among male and female prostitutes, yeah. What he actually says is, "My only rule regarding sex is that it be done well. It's a certain open-mindedness that the Crows seek in their recruits, for very good reasons."

Contrary to popular belief, he never says the Crows or the brothel 'made him bi'. They just appreciate the trait.

[Catilina]

Jedy Comedian: If you romance him as a man, he tell you he prefers women. And he says he's bi 'cause he grew up in a brothel and experienced with prostitutes of either gender, also because Crow training. 

The sexual orientation not teachable.

[nightscrawl]

Thank the Maker for YouTubers. Here is the whole scene.

 

 

Warden: Have you always been...?

 

Zevran: ... intrigued by tight leather clothing?

 

W: Attracted to other men.

 

Z: I grew up amongst Antivan whores, men and women both. My introduction to the subject of sex was, shall we say, rather practical. My only rule regarding sex is that it be done well. (Chuckles.) It's a certain open-mindedness that the Crows seek in their recruits, for very good reasons.

 

W: Define "open-mindedness."

 

Z: I have been with both men and women in my time. Many, in fact. Often for business but not always. Given my druthers I would say I prefer a soft and shapely woman, but I know what I am. I will not discount anyone solely because of what someone else tells us is right or wrong. I cannot change my past, obviously. You are a most intriguing man, but if what I represent makes you uncomfortable... well, it would be better for both of us to know that now, yes?

 

W: It doesn't bother me, Zevran.

 

Z: No, I didn't expect it would. You've a bit of an open mind yourself, no? Ahhh, enough talk of the past. As my tutor used to say, "Keep your eyes to the rear in the ambush and the bedchamber, and not otherwise." Words to live by.

[Jedi Comedian]

The sexual orientation not teachable.

There are cases of people who's tendencies have changed.

Sexual orientation IS teachable, society teaches us to be straight (not that being gay is bad, it's just not the norm).

[Jedi Comedian]

My introduction to the subject of sex was, shall we say, rather practical.

It's a certain open-mindedness that the Crows seek in their recruits, for very good reasons.

I cannot change my past

There it is.

[vertigomez]

There are cases of people who's tendencies have changed.

Sexual orientation IS teachable, society teaches us to be straight (not that being gay is bad, it's just not the norm).

Society tells people to be straight. That's not the same thing as being able to alter (or "teach") someone's sexuality.

In any case, I'm pretty done with this thread for today, so... adieu.

[Jedi Comedian]

Society tells people to be straight.

Society does way more than just telling people to be straight, just saying.

[ArcaneEsper]

There are cases of people who's tendencies have changed.

Sexual orientation IS teachable, society teaches us to be straight (not that being gay is bad, it's just not the norm).

 

Sexuality can be fluid, yes; but not taught. The fact that we live in a heteronormative world where people can still identify as anything other than straight further proves that.

[daveliam]

There's no telling if Zevran would or would not have been bisexual had he been raised Dalish. Nurture Over Nature is a debate that I think is suited for a different place than here, especially since that would only cause escalation and arguments.

 

However, I will say that, had Zevran shown an inclination towards other men in a Dalish tribe, I'm fairly certain that the elders would have steered him straight towards women (and I mean that in a directional sense). It is implied that the Dalish frown on homosexual relationships because they want as many children as they can have (due to a low population), and naturally you can't have biological children in a homosexual relationship. I highly doubt that if you're gay you're ostracized from the clan among the Dalish, but you'd probably be pressured to "try" to have a heterosexual relationship for the sake of offspring. If Zevran had been Dalish, regardless of attraction towards men, he would have been expected to settle down and have a family.

 

EDIT: Also, in Origins, I'm fairly certain that if you romance him and you ask about his gender preferences, Zevran will say that he prefers whichever one you are. So, since I played a female, he said he preferred women. If you play a male, he'll say he prefers men. So saying that he would or wouldn't be bi had he not been raised a Crow is basically an impossible thing to be certain of.

 

Where was it implied that the Dalish frown on homosexual relationships?  Specifically?

[ThePhoenixKing]

Where was it implied that the Dalish frown on homosexual relationships?  Specifically?

 

I can't cite you a source on it at the moment, but I do seem to recall something about the Dalish being more sexually conservative. It does make a measure of sense; they're a dying people and need to replenish their bloodlines in order to survive.

[nightscrawl]

Where was it implied that the Dalish frown on homosexual relationships?  Specifically?

 

I don't think there is anything regarding homosexual relationships specifically. It is merely inference. Both the quest dialogue involving Feynriel and the male romance with Merrill talk about how it's not kosher to be with a human. Yermogi is correct in that it is in regard to breeding and preserving the elvhen. Similarly, the city elves also marry between alienages of other cities to spread genes around, as is stated in the DAO origin. With the elves, either city or Dalish, it's all about breeding and preservation.

 

So, if that is the stated goal, I think it is logical to then infer that homosexual relationships are not encouraged. Note that I do say relationships, and not just sex. I think it would rather suck to be in a romantic relationship as a gay Dalish teenager and then be expected to pair bond with a member of the opposite sex once you've come of age. It would suck either way, but having an existing emotional attachment would be worse, especially for a young person. The Dalish have this mentality of sacrificing and giving of themselves for the good of the clan, and the elvhen as a whole. This would be one such example.

 

However, I don't think this is homophobic, nor blatant evidence that homophobia is a "thing" in Thedas.

 

I think that in this case, the attitude of clan elders, were they to observe same-sex attraction in a Dalish youth, would be to think it was unfortunate because it might bring the youth unhappiness later on, given their attitude toward promoting procreation, but not that homosexuality by itself is a bad thing.

 

But as I said, this is all inference. To my knowledge, there is no evidence of their attitude regarding homosexuality.

[BansheeOwnage]

No more so than your own playable character is a "sex doll" for the BioWare-made LIs. It means you would have a list of backgrounds to choose from, as well as a list of personalities. After you select those as well as the custom LI's sexual preferences, then you go to the custom character creator. There is a list of presets, as usual, and you can customize any of those presets to your liking. And there you go, a romancible that fits your custom protagonist.

And if you're still not sold...

The LI's race would also be customizable. Which means female dwarf or female qunari.

Dave's list of LIs and their specs, they would all read 100%

I'm going to go with "no". I think I'd rather keep being disappointed in romance selection than go with this idea.

 

You are misunderstanding something in the wording of the Sexuality in Thedas codex. The line regarding Tevinter is, "In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves."

 

This is only referring to homosexual behavior engaged in by nobles. They don't give a damn what the sexuality of their slaves is. Homosexuality is not specifically encouraged (or discouraged) "among" slaves because it's not required. If a master wants to violate one of his slaves, he is going to do that.

 

The attitude is, "You're gay? Yeah, we don't care, just go screw one of your slaves to get it out of your system and don't bother anyone with it."

I had the same interpretation. It makes me sad though. I'd prefer a setting like Mass Effect where it's a complete non-issue (both because it's more enjoyable to me to not have it constantly brought up as weird or bad and because I think it's the better way to promote acceptance), but alas, they made up their mind. And we're going to Tevinter next... I wonder how they'll handle that.

 

There are cases of people who's tendencies have changed.

Sexual orientation IS teachable, society teaches us to be straight (not that being gay is bad, it's just not the norm).

 

Witch slapping some sense into you!

[nightscrawl]

I had the same interpretation. It makes me sad though. I'd prefer a setting like Mass Effect where it's a complete non-issue (both because it's more enjoyable to me to not have it constantly brought up as weird or bad and because I think it's the better way to promote acceptance), but alas, they made up their mind. And we're going to Tevinter next... I wonder how they'll handle that.

I truly don't believe that it will be as big of an issue in the next game as some seem to think, and I certainly don't think they will be so trite as to rehash the same narrative we had with Dorian.
 
The ONLY scenario where that will be a concern, or mentioned at all, is if either our PC or an LI are of altus origin and are also bi or gay. We may have a Tevinter altus follower who is straight. We may not have an altus origin. We may have a gay or bi Tevinter follower who is not altus. If Maevaris is a follower and LI, I doubt that will be an issue with her only because she will have already chosen her path in life and not have the same sort of struggles as Dorian at this point.
 
As with all the games, I think we are likely to have a range of followers and LI from all walks of life and origins. The gay or bi ones don't have to be Tevinter at all.

Of course, this doesn't rule out miscellaneous quests and the like that might deal with the issue, but I don't think it will be an ever-present, looming cloud over the romances in the next game.


[edit]
This wording with Mae comes across as awkward, and I'm not suggesting that's she's gay (due to physical parts). I am referring to her deciding to live her life as a woman, which she did in her teens, rather than continue with the accepted Tevinter social practices and be miserable. In that regard, even though she's had her struggles, I think she is probably more well-adjusted than Dorian was.

 

Spoiler

Omg this gif is fantastic. I had never seen this before XD.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 16 juin 2016 - 12:26 .

[Jedi Comedian]

I'm going to go with "no". I think I'd rather keep being disappointed in romance selection than go with this idea.

I had the same interpretation. It makes me sad though. I'd prefer a setting like Mass Effect where it's a complete non-issue (both because it's more enjoyable to me to not have it constantly brought up as weird or bad and because I think it's the better way to promote acceptance), but alas, they made up their mind. And we're going to Tevinter next... I wonder how they'll handle that.


Witch slapping some sense into you!

I don't hear any counter-arguments...

It's the politically correct mindset what makes no ****** sense.

[Yermogi]

I don't think homosexuality is seen as a taboo by any culture or religion we have seen thus far in Thedas. What we have seen is that homosexuality is not viewed as 'practical'. It's something that one does as a sort of 'recreational hobby', as the Tevinters do with slaves, and it is to be done behind closed doors while out in the open you marry and have children. Meanwhile, marriage is between a man and a woman, and you do it to have children. I think someone once asked the writers about how Thedas would view gay marriage, and the answer was more or less "They'd ask what the point was." This says to me that you can have a homosexual marriage, but it's seen as frivolous or pointless. Since you can't have children with someone of the same gender, and you marry to have kids, why get married then?

 

I remember there was a codex entry about there once being an arl who was married to a woman, but was in love with a man, and he and his lover were together his whole life. His wife was perfectly fine with it, and it was sort of an open secret that he had a male lover tucked away somewhere. So I believe most people in Thedas, especially dwarves and elves who have fertility issues as it is, frown upon the idea of someone refusing to marry a person of the opposite gender just because you happen to like your own better. That was what really bugged Dorian's father- why couldn't Dorian just marry the girl, pop out a child or two and get his kicks in when the lights were out with a slave? That makes more practical sense when you see things in terms of "We need heirs to the bloodline, so just have kids."

[nightscrawl]

I don't think homosexuality is seen as a taboo by any culture or religion we have seen thus far in Thedas. What we have seen is that homosexuality is not viewed as 'practical'. It's something that one does as a sort of 'recreational hobby', as the Tevinters do with slaves, and it is to be done behind closed doors while out in the open you marry and have children. Meanwhile, marriage is between a man and a woman, and you do it to have children. I think someone once asked the writers about how Thedas would view gay marriage, and the answer was more or less "They'd ask what the point was." This says to me that you can have a homosexual marriage, but it's seen as frivolous or pointless. Since you can't have children with someone of the same gender, and you marry to have kids, why get married then?
 
I remember there was a codex entry about there once being an arl who was married to a woman, but was in love with a man, and he and his lover were together his whole life. His wife was perfectly fine with it, and it was sort of an open secret that he had a male lover tucked away somewhere. So I believe most people in Thedas, especially dwarves and elves who have fertility issues as it is, frown upon the idea of someone refusing to marry a person of the opposite gender just because you happen to like your own better. That was what really bugged Dorian's father- why couldn't Dorian just marry the girl, pop out a child or two and get his kicks in when the lights were out with a slave? That makes more practical sense when you see things in terms of "We need heirs to the bloodline, so just have kids."

The codex you're referring to is for the Grand Forest Villa.

All of this is true. However, among humans it really only applies to nobility, which are generally smaller in number than the common folk. Unfortunately, we've seen very few examples of homosexuality among the greater population, but that needs to change if the actual state of the world that the players see is to represent what is told in the lore.

 

Both groupings of elves make an effort, but I doubt that applies to casteless dwarves, and perhaps not even commoner dwarves. The Qunari take breeding to a whole new extreme.

[Xilizhra]

I don't think there is anything regarding homosexual relationships specifically. It is merely inference. Both the quest dialogue involving Feynriel and the male romance with Merrill talk about how it's not kosher to be with a human. Yermogi is correct in that it is in regard to breeding and preserving the elvhen. Similarly, the city elves also marry between alienages of other cities to spread genes around, as is stated in the DAO origin. With the elves, either city or Dalish, it's all about breeding and preservation.

 

So, if that is the stated goal, I think it is logical to then infer that homosexual relationships are not encouraged. Note that I do say relationships, and not just sex. I think it would rather suck to be in a romantic relationship as a gay Dalish teenager and then be expected to pair bond with a member of the opposite sex once you've come of age. It would suck either way, but having an existing emotional attachment would be worse, especially for a young person. The Dalish have this mentality of sacrificing and giving of themselves for the good of the clan, and the elvhen as a whole. This would be one such example.

 

However, I don't think this is homophobic, nor blatant evidence that homophobia is a "thing" in Thedas.

 

I think that in this case, the attitude of clan elders, were they to observe same-sex attraction in a Dalish youth, would be to think it was unfortunate because it might bring the youth unhappiness later on, given their attitude toward promoting procreation, but not that homosexuality by itself is a bad thing.

 

But as I said, this is all inference. To my knowledge, there is no evidence of their attitude regarding homosexuality.

Keep in mind that the Dalish, like the quarians, also need to keep their populations small enough to stay mobile. Breeding quickly isn't the main priority. It's the city elves who force their children into hetero marriages.

 

I don't hear any counter-arguments...

It's the politically correct mindset what makes no ****** sense.

You'll need to make an actual argument to get a counter-argument, instead of mere assertions. In other words, citation needed.

[PapaCharlie9]

Either way, femShep gets the short end of the stick.

If the only romances available to femShep were Garrus and Liara, I would consider that total victory for femShep. I'll take quality over quantity any day.

[ThePhoenixKing]

If the only romances available to femShep were Garrus and Liara, I would consider that total victory for femShep. I'll take quality over quantity any day.

 

Agreed. The Witcher 3 only had two core romance options in the form of Triss and Yenn, but both were so well-written the relative lack of variety didn't really matter.

[Xilizhra]

If the only romances available to femShep were Garrus and Liara, I would consider that total victory for femShep. I'll take quality over quantity any day.

Eesh, I wouldn't. I go for Liara, but I do think more variety is important.

[Yermogi]

If the only romances available to femShep were Garrus and Liara, I would consider that total victory for femShep. I'll take quality over quantity any day.

Except that this is your opinion in the sense that these two are, presumably, your preferred LIs. Some of us (and I include myself in that number) never romanced Liara, and/or felt ambivalent about Garrus (I loved him personally, but he's not for everyone). Some of us romanced Thane (my first, true BW romance) and Jacob (small though that number may be), and plenty of us romanced Kaiden. The ultimate point was that each LI had devoted fanbases, and then the femShep LIs were essentially gutted. If the romances available from the start had been ONLY Garrus and Liara, then sure, that would be different. But they weren't, and in the end if you hadn't romanced Garrus in ME2, you didn't even have him.

 

In any case, talking about ME3 romances is like beating a dead horse to me and just gets me annoyed all over again. It would appear that BW has learned its lesson, thank God, and has improved in that area. Hopefully we will never see a repeat of the debacle that was ME3.

[Steelcan]

I don't think Jacob had a devoted fanbase, just saying

[Lady Artifice]

If the only romances available to femShep were Garrus and Liara, I would consider that total victory for femShep. I'll take quality over quantity any day.

 

 

I didn't like either romance very much, so I'd personally see those two options alone as lacking both elements. 

[TheJediSaint]

"The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them."

Louis CK.

 

I think this quote is applicable to video game romances as it is to many things in life.