179 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

I truly don't believe that it will be as big of an issue in the next game as some seem to think, and I certainly don't think they will be so trite as to rehash the same narrative we had with Dorian.
 
The ONLY scenario where that will be a concern, or mentioned at all, is if either our PC or an LI are of altus origin and are also bi or gay. We may have a Tevinter altus follower who is straight. We may not have an altus origin. We may have a gay or bi Tevinter follower who is not altus. If Maevaris is a follower and LI, I doubt that will be an issue with her only because she will have already chosen her path in life and not have the same sort of struggles as Dorian at this point.
 
As with all the games, I think we are likely to have a range of followers and LI from all walks of life and origins. The gay or bi ones don't have to be Tevinter at all.

Of course, this doesn't rule out miscellaneous quests and the like that might deal with the issue, but I don't think it will be an ever-present, looming cloud over the romances in the next game.


[edit]
This wording with Mae comes across as awkward, and I'm not suggesting that's she's gay (due to physical parts). I am referring to her deciding to live her life as a woman, which she did in her teens, rather than continue with the accepted Tevinter social practices and be miserable. In that regard, even though she's had her struggles, I think she is probably more well-adjusted than Dorian was.

 
Omg this gif is fantastic. I had never seen this before XD.

Yeah, it's likely they'll do their best to avoid it being an issue, by having non-gay-Altus companions etc. They might also have an Altus origin lose their family influence early on.

 

Haha, I'm glad you like it! I once made a save to see what would happen if you tried to attack Flemeth, and this was the result. I'm always entertained by it.

 

I don't hear any counter-arguments...

It's the politically correct mindset what makes no ****** sense.

Um... counter-arguments to what argument, exactly?

 

The codex you're referring to is for the Grand Forest Villa.

All of this is true. However, among humans it really only applies to nobility, which are generally smaller in number than the common folk. Unfortunately, we've seen very few examples of homosexuality among the greater population, but that needs to change if the actual state of the world that the players see is to represent what is told in the lore.

 

Both groupings of elves make an effort, but I doubt that applies to casteless dwarves, and perhaps not even commoner dwarves. The Qunari take breeding to a whole new extreme.

I'm going to echo what you said about the Sexuality Codex mostly referring to the nobility. The common folk get married all the time, and for reasons other than heirs and alliances. And I'm going to assume you can adopt people in Thedas, and it would seem like that would be in great demand in the last decade there, too, so you can still have children/heirs. Anyway, I completely agree that we need to see more examples of this among the general population to flesh out exactly what the world is supposed to look like, because we didn't even know if same-sex marriage existed until Trespasser, the most recent piece of content

 

I'm actually wondering if any of this would apply to dwarves at all. It's not like they have any room to expand, so what they need is a stable population.

[Macha'Anu]

Actually they finally got it right this game. I hated da2 vending machine pick a li any li romances as to me that is not realistic. It's pandering. In reality people have preferences and for once that actually shined in dai. It also nudged me to play multiple characters of both genders to experience them. I hope they stick to the realistic romances. 

[nightscrawl]

And I'm going to assume you can adopt people in Thedas, and it would seem like that would be in great demand in the last decade there, too, so you can still have children/heirs.

Blight Orfans Notis Bord.

 

I actually did all those things, too. (Yes, I know they weren't real "orfans.")

[Sifr]

 

 And I'm going to assume you can adopt people in Thedas, and it would seem like that would be in great demand in the last decade there, too, so you can still have children/heirs.

 

I suspect that in Thedas adoption operates like it did until the mid 20th Century, where adoption tended to be an informal arrangement, bypassing any official government regulation (should it have existed).

 

You hear a lot of cases even from a couple decades ago where people would agree to take in their relative's children, either because they didn't have the money to support them all, the mother got pregnant again, or it was given up because out of wedlock births were frowned upon.

 

But yeah, we've seen adoption in DA before, such as Bodahn raising Sandal as his own son after finding him abandoned in the Deep Roads.

[PapaCharlie9]

Except that this is your opinion in the sense that these two are, presumably, your preferred LIs. Some of us (and I include myself in that number) never romanced Liara, and/or felt ambivalent about Garrus (I loved him personally, but he's not for everyone).

Of course. Would it surprise you to hear that the Garrus romance was also not for me? I also didn't care much for the Cullen or Cass romances, but I acknowledge they were done well.

All of which highlights the muddle of "what's good" and "what's good for me" in the discussions I read in our fandom. AFAIC, debating personal preference is pointless. What would be less pointless is figuring out why good content is good, and bad content is bad, apart from personal preference. I know it's impossible to completely separate opinions about quality from personal preference and I wouldn't recommend trying to do so, but we can at least be aware of the influence of personal preference when evaluating some content for quality.

I'd love to see more discussion about why a particular romance is well written or engaging, and less about "too much X, not enough Y," score keeping.

[Xilizhra]

Of course. Would it surprise you to hear that the Garrus romance was also not for me? I also didn't care much for the Cullen or Cass romances, but I acknowledge they were done well.

All of which highlights the muddle of "what's good" and "what's good for me" in the discussions I read in our fandom. AFAIC, debating personal preference is pointless. What would be less pointless is figuring out why good content is good, and bad content is bad, apart from personal preference. I know it's impossible to completely separate opinions about quality from personal preference and I wouldn't recommend trying to do so, but we can at least be aware of the influence of personal preference when evaluating some content for quality.

I'd love to see more discussion about why a particular romance is well written or engaging, and less about "too much X, not enough Y," score keeping.

None of that helps. There are "better" romances in games that I don't pick because I don't like the character enough. Both Anders and Isabela had, I believe, better romance writing than Merrill, but I still always pick Merrill because I love her (and am not attracted to Anders). Variety is an important thing, and what's most important is trying to have all romances be given quality writing.

[Qun00]

He does say he prefers women. Lots of bisexual people lean one way or the other.


He grew up among male and female prostitutes, yeah. What he actually says is, "My only rule regarding sex is that it be done well. It's a certain open-mindedness that the Crows seek in their recruits, for very good reasons."

Contrary to popular belief, he never says the Crows or the brothel 'made him bi'. They just appreciate the trait.

I can't blame anyone for arriving at that conclusion, though. Zevran does imply that he was sexually abused 'cause elves look pretty.

[Yermogi]

I can't blame anyone for arriving at that conclusion, though. Zevran does imply that he was sexually abused 'cause elves look pretty.

I got that vibe as well, especially when he talked about how he was trained to seduce people and use that to his advantage. Its quite easy to imagine that the Crows training basically involved throwing him into a lot of sexual situations and physically forcing him at times to do things that he may not have originally been comfortable with. Which is not to say that Zevran wasn't knowledgeable about all sorts of sexual practices, growing up in a brothel. But that doesn't mean that he was interested in all of those practices, or even open to them... until the Crows insisted that he be.

 

And going back to the gay marriage topic: yes, it would mostly be an issue for nobility wanting heirs, but I just got the feeling that it's not a common practice for even commoners to marry the same gender. I could be completely incorrect, of course, since we haven't seen much from the "commoner" side of things, but it's not really discussed by regular people either. I haven't seen any same-sex couples married in the game, commoner or noble. But again, I could be wrong.

[Xilizhra]

And going back to the gay marriage topic: yes, it would mostly be an issue for nobility wanting heirs, but I just got the feeling that it's not a common practice for even commoners to marry the same gender. I could be completely incorrect, of course, since we haven't seen much from the "commoner" side of things, but it's not really discussed by regular people either. I haven't seen any same-sex couples married in the game, commoner or noble. But again, I could be wrong.

Sera can marry the Inquisitor.

[Yermogi]

Sera can marry the Inquisitor.

Ah, well, there you are. I had no idea. I never romanced her myself so I never thought of looking that up. Consider me corrected.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Doesn't Sera have banter with Vivienne suggesting that it's not legally recognized union in Thedas?

[nightscrawl]

Ah, well, there you are. I had no idea. I never romanced her myself so I never thought of looking that up. Consider me corrected.

 

Sera and Cullen are the only two LIs that have a marriage option, so I think it's easy to not know about it.

[vertigomez]

Doesn't Sera have banter with Vivienne suggesting that it's not legally recognized union in Thedas?

No. She just snarks at her about 'marrying up'.

[Sifr]

Doesn't Sera have banter with Vivienne suggesting that it's not legally recognized union in Thedas?

 

If Vivienne is Divine she makes a far more cutting remark about it not being legitimate, leading Sera to angrily tell her that she will recognise it.

[vertigomez]

If Vivienne is Divine she makes a far more cutting remark about it not being legitimate, leading Sera to angrily tell her that she will recognise it.

Oooh, I forgot about that one! It's from the same banter as above, only with this added to it:

Vivienne (if she's Divine): Yes, well, I wish you the best of luck having that recognized.
Sera: Look into my eye, Vivvy. Recognize it.

So, err, I'd wager that the Divine has the final say in this sort of thing, if their marriage was the religious sort. So, Cassandra and presumably Leliana are supportive, Vivienne not so much.

[Phoe77]

I don't think Tevinter really cares which sex any of its people prefer so long as they're still willing to do their duty and marry someone that society deems appropriate.  It's been far too long since I've played so I can't point to a specific piece of dialogue to support this, but I always got the feeling that the biggest problem wasn't that Dorian is gay so much is that he is unwilling to adhere to the idea that his sexuality has no place in politety.  If he had married the girl that his family had picked for him and didn't proclaim his homosexuality at dinner parties then I don't think that anyone would have cared.  

 

I agree that it would be interesting to see how other social classes throughout Thedas view homosexuality.  The few bits of information that we have to go on seem to suggest that there aren't really strong feelings about it either way.  

 

I wonder if Vivienne is against same sex marriage on principle or just because she likes to mess with Sera.

[Xilizhra]

Oooh, I forgot about that one! It's from the same banter as above, only with this added to it:

Vivienne (if she's Divine): Yes, well, I wish you the best of luck having that recognized.
Sera: Look into my eye, Vivvy. Recognize it.

So, err, I'd wager that the Divine has the final say in this sort of thing, if their marriage was the religious sort. So, Cassandra and presumably Leliana are supportive, Vivienne not so much.

Remarkable how many different ways Vivienne is terrible, yes?

[nightscrawl]

I wonder if Vivienne is against same sex marriage on principle or just because she likes to mess with Sera.

 
Probably her just being, er, her, with Sera. Granted it's not marriage, but she doesn't seem to have an issue with homosexuality by itself, as evidenced by a banter with Dorian.
 
Vivienne: I received a letter the other day, Dorian.
Dorian: Truly? It's nice to know you have friends.
Vivienne: It was from an acquaintance in Tevinter, expressing his shock at the disturbing rumors about your... relationship with the Inquisitor.
Dorian: Rumors you were only too happy to verify, I assume.
Vivienne: I informed him the only "disturbing" thing in evidence was his penmanship.
Dorian: Oh. Thank you.
Vivienne: I am not so quick to judge, darling. See that you give me no reason to feel otherwise.

[Yermogi]

I kind of feel like Vivienne believes that the Inquisitor marrying Sera is, as she said in the video, "a waste" in the sense that the Inquisitor could marry very well if she wanted to, but instead chose Sera. She's all about making powerful alliances and good matches, and although she may not like Dorian, he's from a powerful Tevinter family and he knows how politics works and how to get around it. Being with Dorian can be politically advantageous, especially with the Inquisitor's reputation.

 

Marrying Cullen can also be advantageous. He's not from a noble family, but Orlesians seem to love him, and he's well known and well respected. Therefore, he could influence certain people in certain areas- the Commander and the Inquisitor together are a powerful team. A good match that can be advantageous in the future, and so she approves of it.

 

Meanwhile, Sera is basically a penniless thief/assassin who hates nobility, has allies only with servants, and does not care nor want any power over anything. A match with Sera, in Vivienne's mind, is a waste because the Inquisitor could probably have anyone that she wants by the end of the game (a she in this scenario, as Sera only romances females). Likewise, she also hates Blackwall/Reinier, because he's a convicted murdered and lied about his identity. He also has nothing, and also wants nothing. Again, the Inquisitor being with him is a waste.

 

Josephine she's probably fine with. Powerful political knowledge, excellent diplomatic skills, lots of connections and even more clout with the Inquisitor behind her. An excellent pairing. Cassandra Pentaghast is technically a Nevarran princess who is known, feared and respected throughout Southern Thedas, and with the Inquisitor is capable of really anything. Vivienne would approve. Iron Bull... well, politically not very advantageous. BUT, he's a highly well-respected mercenary with an excellent reputation, also well known, likely to go places in both a literal and figurative sense- especially being possibly married to the Inquisitor (if you take that dialogue). 

 

And Solas is gone, so she doesn't need to worry about him messing up the Inquisitor's prospects (though she doubtlessly would disapprove if he was still around, in my mind.)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Sera and Cullen are the only two LIs that have a marriage option, so I think it's easy to not know about it.

Yeah, guess they didn't care about the people romancing the other LIs.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, guess they didn't care about the people romancing the other LIs.

There's no way in Hell that Josephine would have done a wedding that quickly. It's Josephine; it would have to be some huge affair with all of her family that she could spend a great deal of time on arranging.

[Qun00]

What about Cassandra? For someone who is a traditional romantic type, it is weird that she doesn't get the option and even weirder that she makes fun of the Inquisitor when he brings it up.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Remarkable how many different ways Vivienne is terrible, yes?

 

Yeah, I don't even like Sera all that much, and I thought that was cruel.

 

Seriously, if the next game doesn't give us the chance to put an end to her disingenuous assertions, I'm going to be very annoyed...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There's no way in Hell that Josephine would have done a wedding that quickly. It's Josephine; it would have to be some huge affair with all of her family that she could spend a great deal of time on arranging.

Doesn't excuse the fact you can't even so much bring the topic up with her. 

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't excuse the fact you can't even so much bring the topic up with her. 

Well, yes, that was either just laziness or a weird time crunch. The actual marriages themselves were so rushed that I feel more or less the same way about them.