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[Monk]

Sincere query: Do you also hope that male characters are designed with similar flaws and imperfections, and that as a result the male LIs aren't physically a type that people who are attracted to men would generally find hot?

As far back as ME1 and DA:O there have been some complaints about female characters being sexualized. Some of those complaints had merit, for example the bikini armor worn by Dalish women, the gratuitous camera angles with Miranda, or bust size increasing for female companion characters with each game. They were all legitimate problems that shouldn't be repeated in future Bioware games.

That said, some people also had a tendency to go too far with those complaints and equate any attractive female character as being sexualized or designed with a male gaze. There was also a fair amount of hypocrisy on these forums and Tumblr, in that some of the loudest voices who went too far with their criticism of attractive female characters were posting shirtless fan art of Kaidan or campaigning for Cullen to be a LI, because he was oh so dreamy.

I'd still disagree with anyone arguing that all the female LIs need to be designed to look like average people, but I can respect their opinion if they're not arguing for some sort of double standard.

Spoiler

Not sure why I posted like an Elcor. Seemed like the right thing to do at the time...

 

Hey, the argument sounds better from an Elcor. /joking sarcasm*

 

*Made me reread it. My brain's of limited capacity as it is!

 

 

Spoiler

She's adorable! I love that she doesn't look like she just walked from a fashion magazine photoshoot like most Asari we've seen.

 

From the few seconds we see of her, I feel like her personality will be more quirky and goofy, which is great! We've already had damsel-in-distress-scientist-turned-into-badass-chick Liara and ruthless-and-cold-but-noble-warrior Samara so it makes sense they would try to give her a distinct personality from our previous Asari squadmates.

 

Can we get rid of the eyebrows tho?

 

Yeah but maybe there's a scene where she's putting on "her brows", the Tempest gets some major turbulance and she runs to the CIC(?) with DC-Joker-Brows. This would be hilarious.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Sincere query: Do you also hope that male characters are designed with similar flaws and imperfections, and that as a result the male LIs aren't physically a type that people who are attracted to men would generally find hot?

As far back as ME1 and DA:O there have been some complaints about female characters being sexualized. Some of those complaints had merit, for example the bikini armor worn by Dalish women, the gratuitous camera angles with Miranda, or bust size increasing for female companion characters with each game. They were all legitimate problems that shouldn't be repeated in future Bioware games.

That said, some people also had a tendency to go too far with those complaints and equate any attractive female character as being sexualized or designed with a male gaze. There was also a fair amount of hypocrisy on these forums and Tumblr, in that some of the loudest voices who went too far with their criticism of attractive female characters were posting shirtless fan art of Kaidan or campaigning for Cullen to be a LI, because he was oh so dreamy.

I'd still disagree with anyone arguing that all the female LIs need to be designed to look like average people, but I can respect their opinion if they're not arguing for some sort of double standard.

Spoiler

Not sure why I posted like an Elcor. Seemed like the right thing to do at the time...

 

Wasn't it kinda the same for men in Inquisition? OK, Cullen was generically hot, but the rest? 40-something Blackwall with his bushy beard? Iron Bull's huge horns and pillowy man-bosoms? Dorian and his Freddy Mercury 'stache? Solas who looks 10 years away from being an Orlok expy? 

 

And yet, of all those characters Solas ended up being, far and away, the most talked about romance character as I see it. So I don't think looks matter that much for romanceable characters. Cripes, probably the most talked about male romance character in Mass Effect doesn't look even remotely like a human. 

 

Plus, we haven't seen the rest of the cast. Maybe Cora is smoking hot. I'd say we should wait until declaring Bioware has sworn off conventionally attractive women forever like some people (not you) are doing. Perhaps they just don't pull a Witcher and have almost all the female characters of import be ridiculously beautiful bombshells while the men were much, much more varied in physical appearance. At some point I found that rather silly myself.

 

I'm OK with the idea that not all Asari need to look like Liara or the Councillor. The species needed more variety to get out of its blue eye candy niche if you ask me.

[Han Shot First]

I think Miranda Lawson is a case of a character having a round or square face but with long hair;https://roboheartbea...png?w=475&h=465http://www.writeups....2-Profile-h.jpgI think that was why I was surprised with the amount of people who disparaged Cassandra Pentaghast's face because of her facial shape but did not have the same opinion of Miranda Lawson's facial shape;http://31.media.tumb...mgBH1qb4j8p.pnghttps://upload.wikim...entaghast_2.pnghttps://pbs.twimg.co...33/72HolocT.jpg

I think the difference is that Cassandra had been introduced in a previous game, and that her features were somewhat softer and more feminine in DA2. It also didn't help that DA:I released during the height of GamerGate and while Feminist Frequency vids were still making the rounds, so some people interpreted the changes as not just being due to a new engine, or tweaks to make Cassandra look more like a warrior, but rather a response to criticism about previous female characters being sexualized. Josephine's appearance being tweaked between her first screenshot and the game's release, a change that arguably arguably make her somewhat less conventionally attractive, also probably fed into that, even if Cassandra was a more frequent target of criticism.

There was a lot of overreaction and perhaps paranoia over Cassandra's appearance in DA:I, but I don't they were completely wrong in saying that the female LIs were not conventionally attractive.

Miranda was a new character with no expectations based off of the previous game, and ME2 released during a far less politically charged year for games. She also, despite having square face, was still very attractive. She looked close enough to Yvonne Strahovski, who is a beautiful woman. There were some complaints about Miranda's appearance, but from what I recall they were mainly tied to uncanny valley and Bioware's struggles with face mapping.

Well, all the cool kids think Garrus is hot and it sure isn't his looks.

Fooooooor most of us. There's also Iron Bull, who's not really a cutie, old-ass Blackwall, and unwashed hobo-face Anders. I think the take home lesson is that the right voice and personality will make up for being a weird cat dinosaur birdman or the tiniest head and gnarliest scars. I mean, Nathaniel Howe is still my gold standard for Bioware hotness, and he's not going to be winning any Mr. America pageants.

Granted, I don't think the new Asari is drop-dead gorgeous, but assuming she's a romance option, maybe she'll be really charming. Y'all went for Tali without knowing if she was made of spiders, after all.

There were also complaints about Jacob and Thane's appearance, and In LI threads there have been people who say they chose Kaidan over Garrus because ?Garrus looks like a dinosaur, or Cullen or Dorian over Iron Bull because Minotaur, so I don't think caring about a LI character's appearance is unique to any one gender or gender preference.

It's true that many players can look past a LI's appearance if the writing or voice work appeals to them, but that's certainly not everyone. There's also going to be a different threshold for each person on how much they're willing to overlook, if the character doesn't appeal to them physically.

I thought Josephine was rather plain but had the Inquisitor romance her because I liked the character, their interaction together, and the voice work. I also quite liked Cassandra's personality, writing, and VA work, and would have had the Inquisitor romance her if Josephine wasn't in the game. I don't think I could sit through a scene of my character kissing a female Turian however without getting the dry heaves, no matter how well written or acted, and characters that look more like girls than women (Merril, potentially this Asari) are too creepy for me to ever have a character get involved with them.

[Dalinne]

The key is variety.

We didn't see the rest of Asari. I hope every single asari have a very distinct face model, or at least I hope we can see variety within especies (Asari not very conventionally attractive, Asari freaking beautiful, old Asari, very young Asari... fat Krogans, rather slim krogans, sexy krogans, female turians, barefaced turians, salarian with different face models, etc.).

I don't want to make sexy people disappear. I want ALL different kind of people be.

 

Regarding sexualization of female in videogames:

It depends on the context. One think I really like of Miranda is her sexuallity. She doesn't need to play as a female fatale or use "her women wiles" (ugh! I freaking hate that concept so much...) in order to achieve her goals. Why? Because she is a good leader (although not very beloved one sometimes), she is intelligent, she is a very good operative, she has good biotics and she controls the situation every freaking single time. Also, Miranda has sex when SHE wants to have sex (Shadow Broker emails). When Shepard romances her, she stripped and enjoys because she wants to do it.

 

Buuuut... those butt shots, those freaking butt shots! Do you know why they are so wrong? I've said it before and I will never stop of condeming them: those butt shots have no meaning in storywise nor even for the context. When she is speaking about how perfect she is, it's OK the camera follows her figure, I can understand that, the context recquires it but WHEN MIRANDA IS TELLING YOU ABOUT HER SISTER???? And the camera shots at her ass? THAT IS OBJECTIFYING! It's like the main character doesn't care about Miranda's problems, s/he prefers to look at her ass 

[The Elder King]

@Undead Han: the only change in Josephine's appearance, as far as I recall, was about her hairstyle, with the bun being on the back of her head instead on the top. Are you referring to something else?

[Wulfram]

I still say the DAI female cast was the hottest Bioware's ever done.  And i'm not aware that I have all that unconventional tastes.  And I'm plenty shallow, too.

[LightningPoodle]

I have an idea!

 

Right, let's lay the ground work first. It is going to take us a very long time for us to get to Andromeda, and from what we now know, I am willing to bet we are going to be in cryo sleep for the entire journey. We still do not know when we actually set off though. Is it prior to the events of Mass Effect 3? Are we heading off many, many years after those events? We don't know. Let's go out on a limb though and say that it's many years after the events of Mass Effect 3. Shepard is dead. Our crew has moved on. Right, ground work lain.

 

Now, we have been told that no previous characters will make an appearance in Mass Effect: Andromeda. I still believe that is true. Too many variables. However, this does not exclude possible references or connections to those characters. This is set in the same universe. Completely wiping the slate clean is a bad move.

 

So what am I thinking, and why am I posting this in this thread?

 

This new Asari character is actually the daughter (or granddaughter, great granddaughter et cetera) of Liara T'soni.

 

Bare with me.

 

Asari can live 10x longer than the average human. Even if Shepard was in a relationship with Liara, it is likely that Liara has in fact moved on after Shepard's death. It would be a horrible existence for her if she didn't. She would have children (maybe with Shepard or maybe with someone else later in her life). She even says something about having kids in Mass Effect 3. Even if this game is set hundreds of years later, we could still see a kid from Liara.

 

Why would BioWare do this?

 

Liara is essentially a poster child for the Mass Effect trilogy and perhaps a permanent one on the entire franchise. There isn't much denying that. She has had a large role in all three games. She is perhaps the most developed of all of the companions. Even her romance is kinda pushed at you. If any character from the trilogy is to get a reference in Andromeda, it would be Liara.

 

And how could they go about doing this?

 

During conversations with this Asari character, she could start to reveal why she chose to go on this journey. Her reasons could be anything, but I think her acting as an agent for her mother (the Shadow Broker) could be a really cool thing. She wouldn't expressly reveal what her mothers name is - so as to keep her identity secret - but for us fans, we'd get the hint. Job done. You've made a reference that doesn't need further explanation.

 

And I don't think this would affect her character at all. From those simple few seconds she was in the trailer, I want to assume that she is very young, a little quirky, a lot of fun, and doesn't take things too seriously. That's just all I read from her face and the way her features moved. If I am correct, this would be almost a completely different character to Liara who was serious and didn't know how to have fun et cetera. Even if you didn't like Liara as a character, you would still be able to separate the two characters.

[Gwydden]

I thought Josephine was rather plain but had the Inquisitor romance her because I liked the character, their interaction together, and the voice work. I also quite liked Cassandra's personality, writing, and VA work, and would have had the Inquisitor romance her if Josephine wasn't in the game. I don't think I could sit through a scene of my character kissing a female Turian however without getting the dry heaves, no matter how well written or acted, and characters that look more like girls than women (Merril, potentially this Asari) are too creepy for me to ever have a character get involved with them.

Personally I didn't like the options for straight men in DAI, but that had less to do with their looks than with their personalities: Josephine was the latest iteration of Bioware's Aerie trope (although less egregious than most, I'll give her that) and on top of that felt very bland, while self-righteous crusader types like Cassandra don't really interest me (easy there, I like her fine; it's just that no one's perfect  ). I actually thought Cassandra was quite good looking. I dislike the "conventionally attractive" expression because it tries to bring objectivity into a matter that has a considerable degree of subjectivity going on.

 

Not saying I would complain if one of the options for straight male characters is a bombshell. Heck, I dislike alien romances and would rather not get any (and I would certainly feel less than enthused about a turian option, you crazy fetishists ), but I think is way to early to fret about that. We don't know if that asari is even a squadmate, much less whether she is romanceable. We don't know what other characters there may be. And I don't know you, but I'll take a character who's "just pretty" but has a more compelling personality and/or storyline in my eyes over one who looks hot as all hell but has the charisma of a particularly interesting doorknob.

[Han Shot First]

Wasn't it kinda the same for men in Inquisition? OK, Cullen was generically hot, but the rest? 40-something Blackwall with his bushy beard? Iron Bull's huge horns and pillowy man-bosoms? Dorian and his Freddy Mercury 'stache? Solas who looks 10 years away from being an Orlok expy? 
 .

I'd count Dorian as being conventionally attractive, even if his stache wasn't. You're right that Iron Bull and Solas weren't, but then they also weren't the only options.

[capn233]

I still say the DAI female cast was the hottest Bioware's ever done.  And i'm not aware that I have all that unconventional tastes.  And I'm plenty shallow, too.

 

To each their own.

[The Dystopian Hound]

I still say the DAI female cast was the hottest Bioware's ever done. And i'm not aware that I have all that unconventional tastes. And I'm plenty shallow, too.

Did you like only play Dragon age Inquisition? Have you not seen miss Lawson?

[Han Shot First]

@Undead Han: the only change in Josephine's appearance, as far as I recall, was about her hairstyle, with the bun being on the back of her head instead on the top. Are you referring to something else?

They gave her slightly rounder facial features at release. If you look at the old screenshot her cheeks were less pronounced. In game Josephine had the chipmunk effect you get with the Inquisitor if you max out the cheek slider in the CC , that's not present in that early screenshot.

[The Elder King]

They gave her slightly rounder facial features at release. If you look at the old screenshot her cheeks were less pronounced.

Fair enough, though I don't see the slight change chagning her look at the point of not being conventionally attractive. If she isn't, she wasn't before as well.

Did you like only play Dragon age Inquisition? Have you not seen miss Lawson?

Miranda is one character. He's referring to the whole female cast of the game. And even then, I don't see the problem if someone finds other characters more beautiful then her, and I'm a fan of Miranda.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I'd count Dorian as being conventionally attractive, even if his stache wasn't. You're right that Iron Bull and Solas weren't, but then they also weren't the only options.

 

Yeah, well by the same token I'd say Cass was too if not for the short hair.

[RynJ]

I think she looks fine. Definitely seems like a different character type from Liara, which is absolutely necessary. She seems like a lot of fun, even.

 

I don't dislike the Sera or Merrill type, even if I find them tiring if they're done wrong. But since that's already been done, I hope they don't completely fall into that trap with this Asari if she's a squad mate. Sometimes I feel like I see character types repeat with a few changes in Bioware games. But who knows, this attitude we see could just be an act she puts on to get you to underestimate her and she's actually ruthless. It's far too early to declare anything about any character we've seen.

[EpicNewb]

She looks like she could be an enemy.  Good.  I want to shoot that face.

[DuskWanderer]

She looks like she could be an enemy.  Good.  I want to shoot that face.

 

I hope she is an enemy. She looks...off. Uncanny Valley in a nutshell

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Enters nitpicking mode...

 

Her lips are too thin, how are we going to kiss her properly ?

 

Exits nitpicking mode...

 

On a more serious note, I hope she is not Liara 2.0. I don't want her to be forced on my protagonist.

[Huntress]

She looks more like a huntress type, more combat oriented than Liara. More of a warrior than a scholar. We can hardly judge based from a few seconds a footage.  We'll see.

I agree! thats exactly what I thought of her a huntress or a commando. And LMAO at the pics.

[EpicNewb]

I hope she is an enemy. She looks...off. Uncanny Valley in a nutshell

exactly

 

We have all these thirsty people who would bone anyone getting excited.

 

She looks creepy as hell to me.  The crazed bloodshot eyes, the creepy forced barely smile, and her face just looks weird.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if she inhaled red sand

[EpicNewb]

I agree! thats exactly what I thought of her a huntress or a commando. And LMAO at the pics.

Asari Vanguard Commando or Asari Valkyrie Commando

 

Heard we were supposed to have a squaddie that sets up a biotic shield that we can shoot out of

[Laughing_Man]

Yeah, well by the same token I'd say Cass was too if not for the short hair.

 

Cassandra was most definitely not what I would call "conventionally attractive", if anything short hair merely complimented her look instead of clashing with it.

 

Dorian on the other hand, was very much the definition of conventionally attractive, the mustache was only there to underline his eccentricity.

(If I remember correctly there's a mod to remove the mustache even)

[Lady Artifice]

To be fair to the people jumping to conclusions, it was a very expressive clip.

 

And the expression I saw was one that I would usually ascribe to a bit of a goofball.

[rapscallioness]

Hey, maybe she is a badazz. We don't know. Not interested in the kind of character whose badazzery is really just them being a pretentious d!ck to everybody. The kind of characters where you can just see the writers trying to build them up into these badazzez. Half the time I roll my eyes at it, "Yes, yes I get it. They're sooo kick azz."

 

So, I rather the character just be a badazz, than constantly strutting about trying to signal their badazzery to the world.

 

I also think she's adorable looking. Maybe the guys are concerned about a possible LI being off the table--for them, personal tastes and all that. I understand that.

 

But then most people are pretty frickkin ugly. It's true. The vast majority of the world are not attractive. Traditionally, or otherwise. Most people are ugly, average at best.  They clean up good, or they have a great personality; and they manage to mate and have more ugly people.

 

I bet most of you all are ugly, too. And that's okay. Clean up and do your thing. Everything will be fine.

 

I know it's just fiction, but good looking people are significantly in the minority. Going into a game with all these good looking folks would be weird. I mean, I like good looking people, but it would be weird if everyone was that handsome.

 

And tbh none of the BW characters are that good looking. Fan art is one thing. In game there can be animation difficulties; Eyelash-less issues. They have issues with eyelashes, and it makes the character model look highly strange.  BW, throw some guy liner on it if you have to.

 

I don't think she looks like a man, either. 

[TruthSerum]

Hey, maybe she is a badazz. We don't know. Not interested in the kind of character whose badazzery is really just them being a pretentious d!ck to everybody. The kind of characters where you can just see the writers trying to build them up into these badazzez. Half the time I roll my eyes at it, "Yes, yes I get it. They're sooo kick azz."

 

So, I rather the character just be a badazz, than constantly strutting about trying to signal their badazzery to the world.

 

I also think she's adorable looking. Maybe the guys are concerned about a possible LI being off the table--for them, personal tastes and all that. I understand that.

 

But then most people are pretty frickkin ugly. It's true. The vast majority of the world are not attractive. Traditionally, or otherwise. Most people are ugly, average at best.  They clean up good, or they have a great personality; and they manage to mate and have more ugly people.

 

I bet most of you all are ugly, too. And that's okay. Clean up and do your thing. Everything will be fine.

 

I know it's just fiction, but good looking people are significantly in the minority. Going into a game with all these good looking folks would be weird. I mean, I like good looking people, but it would be weird if everyone was that handsome.

 

And tbh none of the BW characters are that good looking. Fan art is one thing. In game there can be animation difficulties; Eyelash-less issues. They have issues with eyelashes, and it makes the character model look highly strange.  BW, throw some guy liner on it if you have to.

 

I don't think she looks like a man, either. 

 

Unlike in film, people do not normally stand towards each other at a 45 degree angle while talking to each other. But in film they do so that the viewer can see their face. It is also a cardinal sin of filmmaking to have a character leave a room all at once without pausing at the door.

 

These things on the surface don't make sense but they stand out as being really bad if they aren't done right. This game is a visual medium, just like film is a visual medium. In fact Mass Effect is more film like than 99% of most games. With that being said, most people don't like looking at a bunch of ugly faces for 100+ hours. It's one of the reasons I dropped DA:I early on. Everybody just looked wierd and it was irritating to the point that it ruined the game for me. 

 

Now I am not saying that BW should become the videogame version of The CW where every single cast member of a show is a supermodel. I don't watch any CW shows just for that reason because it takes all of the realism out of the show and makes everything look like it is taking place in The Last Action Hero fake movie universe. But at the same time it is extremely annoying that BW of late is actively going out of their way to make the characters in their games noticably unnatractive. It's very off putting.

 

There is a happy medium in televsion and film with the level of physical attractiveness that all of the characters will have in a movie or show. DA:I was well below that and it looks like they are continuing down that same path with ME:A. I had really hoped that the two franchises would not have much in common because for me, DA:I was a massive disappoint and right now my hopes for ME:A have gone from sky high to something below that. 

 

People wouldn't give two $hits about Jamie and Cersei if they were butt ugly. The same as people wouldn't care about Daenerys if she had a face like a pitt bull. Hell, the most beloved character in all of GoT (Snow) is widely considered to be the best looking of the whole bunch. This is how human brains are wired. THIS is reality. What BW is trying to do is the opposite of that and it ruins the experience.