125 ответов в этой теме

[Deadly dwarf]

I've considered the recruit Loghain route, but always defer to Alistair's rant.  Looking at the various origins, however, it seems that most Wardens would have gripes against Loghain that go beyond Ostagar.

 

How can you justify letting Loghain live if you're a city elf and have seen how Loghain tried to sell your alienage into slavery?  Despite lacking a direct connection to the city elves, I would expect a Dalish elf to hold a grudge against Loghain over this as well.

 

If you're a human noble who had his/her family massacred by Howe, you likely view Loghain as a silent accomplice to the crime.

 

The only origins that I think would even consider recruiting Loghain would be the dwarf origins and the Circle Mage origins since both would not have been directly impacted by Loghain's dirty intrigues.  But even here, in order to get Loghain, you're forced to throw Alistair under the bus.  Not an easy thing to do since it feels like the betrayal of a friend....

[LadyLaLa]

I agree that the dwarves (especially Noble) have a better reason than most to recruit Loghain, Elf Mage might not be too willing since, depending on how you headcanon it, they might feel a connection to the alienage elves, as might the Dalish. If you harden Alistair and marry him to Anora, he'll remain king (and not be executed or left as a drunk). It's the best outcome if you want to recruit Loghain. I wish you luck, I've never been able to go through with it

[ArcadiaGrey]

My 2 were a dwarf noble who respected his skills and thought Alistair was a sissy, and a Dalish who gave anyone a second chance (after making Alistair safe as king). She saved Sten, why not Loghain? The wardens aren't honourable, they take the worst of the worst after all.

[Mike3207]

Male Cousland set to marry Anora would spare Loghain for Anora's sake, and to make things better for family harmony.

 

I never felt Loghain was in any part responsible for what happened to the Couslands-that was all Rendon Howe.

[Deadly dwarf]

.... I wish you luck, I've never been able to go through with it

 

Neither have I!  Regardless of your origin, Alistair is your buddy, your comrade from the start of the game!  Given his reaction, recruiting Loghain at the Landsmeet feels like a betrayal.  Granted, it's a bit of a contrived situation since Alistair should be well aware that the Wardens aren't above recruiting from the bottom of the barrel.  (Duncan, himself, was an especially fine example of that, though it is unclear whether Alistair was aware of Duncan's history.  I remember Alistair's remark about the cutpurse Daveth and not knowing what Duncan saw in him....)

[LadyLaLa]

Alistair should be well aware that the Wardens aren't above recruiting from the bottom of the barrel. 

He was, I believe, but personal hurts (remember, Duncan was a father-figure to him, the Wardens a closer to a family than he's ever known) can often get ahead of reason. I know that the PC doesn't have those same attachments, and might not have liked Alistair or Duncan, but I've never been able to make a character turn against Alistair like that. I've wanted to, especially after reading the books, but I couldn't

[Deadly dwarf]

My 2 were a dwarf noble who respected his skills and thought Alistair was a sissy, and a Dalish who gave anyone a second chance (after making Alistair safe as king). She saved Sten, why not Loghain? The wardens aren't honourable, they take the worst of the worst after all.

 

Agreed!  I definitely think it's easier for dwarves than elves or humans to recruit Loghain.  For the Dalish, I'm not so sure.  Given their animosity to humans in general, I would think the betrayal at Ostagar would be something a Dalish could not forgive.  Agreed though regarding the wardens' liberal recruitment policy.  Perhaps Alistair was too new a Warden to appreciate that.

 

Male Cousland set to marry Anora would spare Loghain for Anora's sake, and to make things better for family harmony.

 

I never felt Loghain was in any part responsible for what happened to the Couslands-that was all Rendon Howe.

 

Going into the Landsmeet, I've sometimes been inclined to spare Loghain for the sake of Anora, but she always ends up betraying my Wardens at the Landsmeet without fail!   (Not only does that make me less inclined to spare Loghain, but it makes me wish we could have Anora beheaded as well!)  Then again, I've never gone into the Landsmeet intending to marry Anora, so perhaps that's the reason she turned on my wardens.

[Deadly dwarf]

He was, I believe, but personal hurts (remember, Duncan was a father-figure to him, the Wardens a closer to a family than he's ever known) can often get ahead of reason. I know that the PC doesn't have those same attachments, and might not have liked Alistair or Duncan, but I've never been able to make a character turn against Alistair like that. I've wanted to, especially after reading the books, but I couldn't

 

I'm working on the books myself and they definitely affect how you think in the game!  In the case of Loghain, the impact is mixed.  You see what an extraordinary warrior and hero he is in the fight against the Orlesians.  OTOH, I can't help but remember how Cailan's mother Rowan saved Loghain from a hopeless situation in Maric's first great battle.  By contrast, Loghain made no such effort to save Rowan's son at Ostagar.  Letting Maric kill Katriel without letting him know the full truth first also seemed nasty.  Still, Loghain emerges from "Stolen Throne" as a heroic but flawed character...

[Mike3207]

She only betrays you at the Landsmeet if you make it clear before the Landsmeet you will kill her father. From her vantage point it's in her best interest to spare his life, and she will do what she has to make it happen.

 

 

It's not so much the marriage, as it is the agreement to make her queen and the actions to reciprocate that. The marriage doesn't happen without the agreement to make her Queen.

[LadyLaLa]

I'm working on the books myself and they definitely affect how you think in the game!  In the case of Loghain, the impact is mixed.  You see what an extraordinary warrior and hero he is in the fight against the Orlesians.  OTOH, I can't help but remember how Cailan's mother Rowan saved Loghain from a hopeless situation in Maric's first great battle.  By contrast, Loghain made no such effort to save Rowan's son at Ostagar.  Letting Maric kill Katriel without letting him know the full truth first also seemed nasty.  Still, Loghain emerges from "Stolen Throne" as a heroic but flawed character...

Oh he's wonderfully complicated, I love characters like that. He's not a straight up bad guy, but he does do some terrible things from our point of view while being perfectly justified from his. He's ruthless when it comes to saving Fereldan, willing to sacrifice everything to keep his homeland safe. His life, the trust of his friends, the woman he loves, her son, nothing matters if it means Fereldan is safe. It makes me truly wonder if he would have sacrificed Anora if it came down to it. He ordered Arl Eamon's poisoning, a man he clearly respects, for the sake of the realm. I wouldn't be surprised if he ordered the murders of the Cousland family so he could take power without having to worry about Bryce Cousland speaking against him. He's willing to make the hard choices, which makes him a wonderful foil to the PC, who could make just as many ruthless choices to stop the Blight. Doesn't mean any of my characters could justify letting him live, but he's beautifully written.

 

Aaaaand that was a lot longer than I meant it to be ^^; But I love the character

[Qun00]

Ahh, you're forgetting the first rule every Loghain recruiter must live by: **** ALISTAIR.

 

That will make the choice much easier.

[Mike3207]

I don't live by that rule, but a choice has to be made, and I make that choice. It's just not a choice Alistair can live with.

[Deadly dwarf]

Ahh, you're forgetting the first rule every Loghain recruiter must live by: **** ALISTAIR.

 

That will make the choice much easier.

 

The problem here is that there's really no reason to dislike Alistair during the game; he's a sympathetic character.  His main flaw is his reluctance to lead the team.  But he's more than willing to follow your Warden anywhere and prove his worth as a warrior. 

 

I don't live by that rule, but a choice has to be made, and I make that choice. It's just not a choice Alistair can live with.

 

And that's the dilemma:  stick with Alistair, someone you know you can count on or replace him  with Loghain, an old nemesis who, though a skilled warrior, may want revenge against you?

[Mike3207]

To be fair-Alistair does have a few more flaws-he has issues with blood magic-like any good templar, he has a huge blind spot about Duncan and an inability to see any wrong in the man, he's very moralistic and has great difficulty finding the gray in anything, and like you mentioned,he has issues about leadership. I can see letting him share the throne with Anora, but under no circumstances would I ever let him take the throne solo.

 

Alistair can be counted on-up to the point where you spare Loghain-after that, all bets are off.

 

You can probably tell I don't keep Alistair in my active party much. I tend to favor rogues/mages over warriors to a significant degree.

[Ghost Gal]

I've considered the recruit Loghain route, but always defer to Alistair's rant.  Looking at the various origins, however, it seems that most Wardens would have gripes against Loghain that go beyond Ostagar.

 

How can you justify letting Loghain live if you're a city elf and have seen how Loghain tried to sell your alienage into slavery?  Despite lacking a direct connection to the city elves, I would expect a Dalish elf to hold a grudge against Loghain over this as well.

 

If you're a human noble who had his/her family massacred by Howe, you likely view Loghain as a silent accomplice to the crime.

 

The only origins that I think would even consider recruiting Loghain would be the dwarf origins and the Circle Mage origins since both would not have been directly impacted by Loghain's dirty intrigues.  But even here, in order to get Loghain, you're forced to throw Alistair under the bus.  Not an easy thing to do since it feels like the betrayal of a friend....

 

I'd personally scratch the Mage Origin, since Loghain's "dirty intrigue" with Uldred was what led to the Broken Circle questline.

 

(Having promised to free the Circle in return for supporting him, Uldred and his followers tried to convince Irving and the rest of the Circle to support Loghain, and they almost considered it until Wynne revealed Loghain's treachery at Ostagar. When the rest of the Circle withdrew faster than a hand on a hot stove, Uldred became desperate since he saw his one chance at freedom slip away, and this desperation is part of what caused him to summon that Pride demon, fuse with it, and destroy the Circle. Unless your mage completely loathes the Circle and/or everyone in it, you'd probably not be happy with the carnage Loghain caused with his "dirty intrigues.")

 

So, yeah. City elves and Dalish elves probably wouldn't be happy due to the elven slavery thing, Human Noble probably wouldn't be happy due to the "allied with Howe" thing, Mages probably wouldn't be happy due to the Uldred thing... I guess that does kind of leave Dwarf Origins.

 

Although, in my case many of my personal Dwarf Commoners loved the Grey Wardens and Duncan specifically for giving them another chance at life (since life in Dust Town sucked so much, and being a Grey Warden gave them a sense of purpose, honor, and belonging they never had before), so my Dwarf Commoners personally hated Loghain just as much as Alistair for killing Duncan.

 

So... yeah. Dwarf Noble?

[Deadly dwarf]

I'd personally scratch the Mage Origin, since Loghain's "dirty intrigue" with Uldred was what led to the Broken Circle questline.

 

(Having promised to free the Circle in return for supporting him, Uldred and his followers tried to convince Irving and the rest of the Circle to support Loghain, and they almost considered it until Wynne revealed Loghain's treachery at Ostagar. When the rest of the Circle withdrew faster than a hand on a hot stove, Uldred became desperate since he saw his one chance at freedom slip away, and this desperation is part of what caused him to summon that Pride demon, fuse with it, and destroy the Circle. Unless your mage completely loathes the Circle and/or everyone in it, you'd probably not be happy with the carnage Loghain caused with his "dirty intrigues.")

 

So, yeah. City elves and Dalish elves probably wouldn't be happy due to the elven slavery thing, Human Noble probably wouldn't be happy due to the "allied with Howe" thing, Mages probably wouldn't be happy due to the Uldred thing... I guess that does kind of leave Dwarf Origins.

 

Although, in my case many of my personal Dwarf Commoners loved the Grey Wardens and Duncan specifically for giving them another chance at life (since life in Dust Town sucked so much, and being a Grey Warden gave them a sense of purpose, honor, and belonging they never had before), so my Dwarf Commoners personally hated Loghain just as much as Alistair for killing Duncan.

 

So... yeah. Dwarf Noble?

 

Loghain struck a deal with Uldred?  Darn but Loghain leaves a trail of death and destruction everywhere he goes!  Even with his allies!  I didn't know of his intrigues with the Circle.  I suppose I should talk more with Wynne at Camp...  Where was this revealed?

[Ghost Gal]

Loghain struck a deal with Uldred?  Darn but Loghain leaves a trail of death and destruction everywhere he goes!  Even with his allies!  I didn't know of his intrigues with the Circle.  I suppose I should talk more with Wynne at Camp...  Where was this revealed?

 

I think you learn about it during the Broken Circle quest, when you first run into Wynne and the other mages hulled up. I think you have to ask questions to get more details, but I think they reveal that Uldred had tried to convince them to join Loghain, but when Wynne revealed his treachery at Ostagar Uldred became desperate, then there was a fight, then he summoned the Pride demon out of desperation, then you know the rest.

 

I think Wynne reveals more details if you talk to her at camp, but at this point I don't strictly remember.

[HeliosDisciple]

Dwarf Noble is the most likely, I think. Their long experience with politics and personal military background could make them sympathetic to Loghain, even moreso if they forgave Behlen or did kill Trian. If you murdered your own brother and the Wardens let you in, surely Loghain could be shown the same mercy?

 

Actually, I think Human Noble would be second. Think about it, they'd've grown up hearing all the stories about the great Hero of the River Dane, they could easily refuse to believe Loghain had lost it, or (once Howe is skewered) agree with Cauthrien's stance that he should be stopped but not killed.

 

Human Mage, maaybe, if they're gung-ho about an independent Circle?

 

Can't picture Dwarf Commoner caring all that much, and all three elves are gonna hate him for the slavery thing.

[DebatableBubble]

Any of them if you don't let your personal feelings or history get in the way.

[cJohnOne]

i've only spared Loghain once or twice.  Once to feed him to the Archdemon ha ha.   Sparing a defeated opponent shouldn't be that diffcult should it?

[Qun00]

While the player has the power to avoid it, whatever misery comes from recruiting Loghain is Alistair's own doing.

He made the choice to desert and get drunk. The Warden, as a person, has nothing to feel guilty about.

[kimgoold]

Considering Loghain never survives the Landsmeet in all my games regardless of origins, I'll try to answer impartially;

 

Human Mage no because Loghain backed Uldred and the Mage HoF blames Loghain for Circles fall (whether he's an accomplice or not)

Elf Mage no because of Uldred (as above) and the selling of the elves from alienage

Dwarf Noble no because they got exiled thru betrayal (Bhelen) so not feeling particularly forgiving or magnanimous towards Loghain after Ostagar

Human Noble no because they believe Loghain is in cahoots with Howe who massacred family and thought possibly killed brother at Ostagar

City Elf are you kidding they want to flay him alive for selling elves

Dalish Elf like City Elf wouldn't forgive selling elves into slavery

the only Origins I see not having a problem recruiting Loghain is the Dwarf Commoner, mainly because they expect betrayal and people doing anything to survive (Loghain fleeing Ostagar)

[kimgoold]

Oh he's wonderfully complicated, I love characters like that. He's not a straight up bad guy, but he does do some terrible things from our point of view while being perfectly justified from his. He's ruthless when it comes to saving Fereldan, willing to sacrifice everything to keep his homeland safe. His life, the trust of his friends, the woman he loves, her son, nothing matters if it means Fereldan is safe. It makes me truly wonder if he would have sacrificed Anora if it came down to it. He ordered Arl Eamon's poisoning, a man he clearly respects, for the sake of the realm. I wouldn't be surprised if he ordered the murders of the Cousland family so he could take power without having to worry about Bryce Cousland speaking against him. He's willing to make the hard choices, which makes him a wonderful foil to the PC, who could make just as many ruthless choices to stop the Blight. Doesn't mean any of my characters could justify letting him live, but he's beautifully written.

 

Aaaaand that was a lot longer than I meant it to be ^^; But I love the character

AS much as I despise this character I agree, he is a faceted complex well written character. And I also could see a lot of these traits in Anora truth be told. Another character I despise but I enjoy their villainy in the game.

[Saburau]

I'd have thought a mage follower or protégé of Uldred would jump at the chance to carry out his master's plan and unite with Loghain. And reject Alistair the templar as an added refinement.

[Mike3207]

I'd personally scratch the Mage Origin, since Loghain's "dirty intrigue" with Uldred was what led to the Broken Circle questline.

 

(Having promised to free the Circle in return for supporting him, Uldred and his followers tried to convince Irving and the rest of the Circle to support Loghain, and they almost considered it until Wynne revealed Loghain's treachery at Ostagar. When the rest of the Circle withdrew faster than a hand on a hot stove, Uldred became desperate since he saw his one chance at freedom slip away, and this desperation is part of what caused him to summon that Pride demon, fuse with it, and destroy the Circle. Unless your mage completely loathes the Circle and/or everyone in it, you'd probably not be happy with the carnage Loghain caused with his "dirty intrigues.")

 

 

Wynne opening her big mouth shares as much responsibility for what happened at Broken Circle, if not more than Loghain. She has a bit of blood on her hands regarding that incident, or at least as much as Loghain does. 

 

The Ferelden Circle could have been free by now if they had voted for Uldred's plan.