125 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

Ne
 
Neither the Warden or Alistair really do a 180.
 
The Warden has been all about doing what is needed to stop the Blight, or at least that can be imagined the reason-one of them- for sparing Loghain.

The Warden you're controlling is all about... whatever you're role-playing them as.

The 2 characters I mentioned were Alistair and Loghain. Your Warden wasn't included.
 

Alistair has been about making Loghain face Justice.

Was he? I thought he was about wardening and ending the blight. I don't remember him mentioning anything about making Loghain face justice.
 

He simply can't imagine a circumstance where Loghain can ever be a fellow Warden, and takes the steps necessary to make sure he's not going to be a companion Warden with Loghain.

Yep, that's pretty much what it amounts to. He abandons everything that had been so important to him because he can't accept Loghain as a fellow warden.

[elinore]

But remember, that's not something you know before the Landsmeet.  The gamer, of course, knows this on the second run-through, but the Warden doesn't until Riordan fills him in afterwards.  My guess is that not many of us spare Loghain the first time around.  That wonderful first playthrough is all about finding out about all the secrets of the Wardens -- the hard way!

 

You have caught me at meta-gaming, kind ser. And you're right, of course. For my defense, my first playthrough was literally years ago. Still, all other reasons I listed for sparing Loghain were true for my character at the time. Making him a Grey Warden could be viewed as an act of (petty) vengance - but not justice, I don't think. Even more so in the light of what we know about that order from the end of DAO and from DAI.

 

Throughout the years I came to view joining Grey Wardens as a sacrifice of Now for the Future. The moment you make that decision, your life is forfeit - you either die during the ritual, or you survive to fight darkspawn for max 20-25 years, than you're slowly becoming a ghoul/ insane and than you go to the Deep Roads to die (if you're female, you run a risk of becoming a brood mother). All of that in the name of having at least one Grey Warden during the next Blight - to die, while hopefuly killing the Archedemon. Meaning there are generations upon generations of men and women who are perpetuating this cylcle, so that their blood can "carry on". Granted, I didn't read the books, so I might be mistaken, but it seems grim and the only good thing about that is the finite number of potential Archdemons.

 

Back on topic, I stand by the notion that there is no one origin better suited for sparing Loghain - it depends on how you play/ role-play. But I agree that the first notion for many players/ characters would be to kill him, and for many different reasons.  

[Asha'bellanar]

Yep, that's pretty much what it amounts to. He abandons everything that had been so important to him because he can't accept Loghain as a fellow warden.

Agreed. If you encounter Alistair as a drunk in the Hanged Man in Kirkwall, one of the things he says is, "I'm sorry Duncan, I failed you." I suspect, based on some of his other rantings, that what the writers intended for him to mean by that is that because Loghain didn't get executed at the Landsmeet, Duncan went unavenged. I think the truth is more that he failed Duncan by deserting the Grey Wardens during a Blight.

 

To a Cousland who, as their father lies dying on the floor of the larder, says they want revenge against Howe, Duncan says, "A Grey Warden's duties take precedence, even over vengeance." Apparently, Alistair never got that speech. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Alistair. If he doesn't have a gigantic tantrum and abandon his duties because you decide to take the advice of the Senior Grey Warden and recruit Loghain, Alistair is great. He eventually makes an okay king if he's hardened, and he makes an excellent Grey Warden. But the "I'm deserting my duty because I can't have my way" thing really IS a slap in the face, and seems, at first, out of character. But then think back on the story he tells of his mother's locket and how he had a big tantrum and smashed it. Some things really never change.

 

Given some of the bits and facts we know about abandoned story turns, I suspect he was only supposed to have that tantrum if he was unhardened, and that he would have otherwise stayed (given the existence of conversation snippets where he and Loghain are talking to each other and the fact that at one time Loghain could be recruited much earlier in the game). That makes sense from a character perspective, but then they wanted to force the whole Dark Ritual thing so they created the "bottleneck choice" and broke a lot of things in the narrative (IMHO) in doing so.

 

Anyway, I do think Alistair's sudden hatred of the Grey Wardens because he couldn't execute Loghain is ham-handed story development, as it stands in the final version of the game. It is DEFINITELY Alistair deserting and betraying the Grey Wardens, and failing Duncan in the process. And, if you were romancing him at the time, breaking your heart in the most humiliating way possible (I have never spared Loghain when romancing Alistair, I just couldn't; I did create a game file to import into DA2 so I could see what Alistair the Drunk was like, though. And the one time I did spare Loghain, I arranged for him to marry Anora first, so I knew he'd be all right. Told you, I love Alistair.)

[Pasquale1234]

Agreed. If you encounter Alistair as a drunk in the Hanged Man in Kirkwall, one of the things he says is, "I'm sorry Duncan, I failed you." I suspect, based on some of his other rantings, that what the writers intended for him to mean by that is that because Loghain didn't get executed at the Landsmeet, Duncan went unavenged. I think the truth is more that he failed Duncan by deserting the Grey Wardens during a Blight.

That's an interesting take - if I play it again, I'll pay more attention to his rantings. I guess I always took his rantings as self-flagellation over deserting the Wardens at a crucial time.
 

Given some of the bits and facts we know about abandoned story turns, I suspect he was only supposed to have that tantrum if he was unhardened,

That does make a lot more sense.
 

It is DEFINITELY Alistair deserting and betraying the Grey Wardens, and failing Duncan in the process.

That story moment leaves the Warden in quite a pickle jam: do you want to face the archdemon alongside someone who would desert and betray you if he doesn't get his way now, or someone who'd already betrayed you but now wants to make amends? If that was all I knew of them, I think I'd be inclined to choose the latter - though I guess it depends on the Warden I'm playing.

[HeliosDisciple]

Alistair stands by you for literally everything else. Defile Andraste's ashes? He'll help you kill Leliana and Wynne! Abandon Redcliffe? Sacrifice Eamon wife in a blood magic ritual? Make deals with demons? Sell people into slavery? He'll stay around.

 

Seems a bit unfair to lambast him for the one and only time he doesn't go along with you.

 

 

...especially if you Hardened him. Y'know, telling him he needs to stick up for himself and not get bossed around.

 

 

That said, the severity of the either-or choice is too much. It's silly that King Alistair doesn't even show up for the Battle of Denerim.

[Deadly dwarf]

Alistair stands by you for literally everything else. Defile Andraste's ashes? He'll help you kill Leliana and Wynne! Abandon Redcliffe? Sacrifice Eamon wife in a blood magic ritual? Make deals with demons? Sell people into slavery? He'll stay around.

 

Seems a bit unfair to lambast him for the one and only time he doesn't go along with you.

 

 

...especially if you Hardened him. Y'know, telling him he needs to stick up for himself and not get bossed around.

 

 

That said, the severity of the either-or choice is too much. It's silly that King Alistair doesn't even show up for the Battle of Denerim.

 

It does seem a little contrived, but it appears that BW felt every companion had to have at least one trigger that would make them turn on the PC.  In Alistair's case, the death of his surrogate father, Duncan, is the only thing he won't forgive.  (Although he does express very strong misgivings about killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde.)

[Pasquale1234]

Alistair stands by you for literally everything else. Defile Andraste's ashes? He'll help you kill Leliana and Wynne! Abandon Redcliffe? Sacrifice Eamon wife in a blood magic ritual? Make deals with demons? Sell people into slavery? He'll stay around.

I think the devs felt they needed to provide you with at least one other GW going in to face the archdemon, so your warden wouldn't have to make the sacrifice if you didn't do the DR. If you choose to recruit Loghain, that slot is filled, so Alistair could be released at that point.
 

Seems a bit unfair to lambast him for the one and only time he doesn't go along with you.

He's a fictional character whose reactions were written to be what they are.

[bunch1]

I think the devs felt they needed to provide you with at least one other GW going in to face the archdemon, so your warden wouldn't have to make the sacrifice if you didn't do the DR. If you choose to recruit Loghain, that slot is filled, so Alistair could be released at that point.
 

They could have just added Loghain to the party and kept Alistair like they did when they added Shale, a day 1 dlc character if I remember right, to the party.  You could still have that moment on the roof of deciding who is going to die except now you have one more person to consider.  And if they let Alistair break away early in the game, abandoning his duties or trying to stop the blight on his own, they could still use Riordan for the DR or meet you on the roof or simply let you deal with the consequences of your actions by making you die.

[Pasquale1234]

They could have just added Loghain to the party and kept Alistair like they did when they added Shale, a day 1 dlc character if I remember right, to the party.  You could still have that moment on the roof of deciding who is going to die except now you have one more person to consider.  And if they let Alistair break away early in the game, abandoning his duties or trying to stop the blight on his own, they could still use Riordan for the DR or meet you on the roof or simply let you deal with the consequences of your actions by making you die.

There's a lot of things they could have done - including some of the things LadyMacGuffin mentions above that was changed or cut. What they ended up doing was probably the simplest solution given the circumstances at that point in development.

[GoldenGail3]

Cousland. I recruit him through my Male Couslands - less pain for me. 

[Asha'bellanar]

I think the devs felt they needed to provide you with at least one other GW going in to face the archdemon, so your warden wouldn't have to make the sacrifice if you didn't do the DR. If you choose to recruit Loghain, that slot is filled, so Alistair could be released at that point.

They also had to provide a MALE GW, since the PC is in no way guaranteed to be that.

 

He's a fictional character whose reactions were written to be what they are.

Exactly. In the same way that characters are designed to look the way they do. They're not actual people, they're figments of the imaginations of a dev team. Nobody's getting hurt or upset by us criticising the writing and/or design choices, except maybe the devs, and even then I think they've heard it all before and don't care any more.

[Qis]

The only origins that I think would even consider recruiting Loghain would be the dwarf origins and the Circle Mage origins since both would not have been directly impacted by Loghain's dirty intrigues.  But even here, in order to get Loghain, you're forced to throw Alistair under the bus.  Not an easy thing to do since it feels like the betrayal of a friend....

 

Dwarf maybe, but Circle Mage no, because Uldred, Loghain promised him the First Enchanter position, but things not going as planned, leading to what happen in the Tower.

[bunch1]

Dwarf maybe, but Circle Mage no, because Uldred, Loghain promised him the First Enchanter position, but things not going as planned, leading to what happen in the Tower.

Your mage could hate the circle though so why the absolute no?  Could hate being confined.  Hate being taken from family.  Hate being cursed with magic.  Hate that the circle won't let them see their full potential.  Hate the mages for being weak and hate the templars watching them every day.  Their is no absolutes when it comes to the warden.

 

I mean, a mage can choose to help Jowan, even though he is suspected of being a blood mage, run away and express a desire to go with them.  The warden doesn't have to be a noble/moral person and saying that all HN, HM, EC or EM are good guys/girls who would never work with Loghain is wrong because they could have any of a hundred different mindsets that make recruiting Loghain a reasonable and in-character decision for them.

[Qis]

Uldred have dealings with Loghain and that lead to what happen in the Tower, if Loghain don't have his hands on it then your job there might be easier, no need to get through all those abominations and get into the boring Fade...

 

Your job there is to get Mages support for your army, Loghain have his dirty hands on it that messed things up and you might loose your army and your life too. Dead Mages means fewer soldiers for your troop.

 

You might want to recruit Templar instead but they are not in the treaty and they sure decline if the Tower is not in such condition

[bunch1]

Uldred have dealings with Loghain and that lead to what happen in the Tower, if Loghain don't have his hands on it then your job there might be easier, no need to get through all those abominations and get into the boring Fade...

Zeveran's assassination attempt made things harder for you so did you kill him or recruit him?  If you did recruit him, was it because you felt his usefulness outweighed his past crimes?  This is an assassin that just tried to kill you and has probably murdered many other people in his life so a good and honorable warden should just kill him to see justice done right?  But did you?

[Asha'bellanar]

Your mage could hate the circle though so why the absolute no?  Could hate being confined.  Hate being taken from family.  Hate being cursed with magic.  Hate that the circle won't let them see their full potential.  Hate the mages for being weak and hate the templars watching them every day.  Their is no absolutes when it comes to the warden.

 

I mean, a mage can choose to help Jowan, even though he is suspected of being a blood mage, run away and express a desire to go with them.  The warden doesn't have to be a noble/moral person and saying that all HN, HM, EC or EM are good guys/girls who would never work with Loghain is wrong because they could have any of a hundred different mindsets that make recruiting Loghain a reasonable and in-character decision for them.

Agreed. Anders, who was once a member of the Ferelden Circle, certainly hated it, and he didn't think much of the Chantry, either. Mostly, he hated Templars, but if your PC was someone like Anders, who deeply resented the way mages are routinely treated, the way they're essentially held prisoner and subject to various kinds of abuses, you might well not give a crap about the fall of the Circle. You might laugh your arse off, in fact. And if you do care little for the Circle, you wouldn't necessarily use that as reason to execute Loghain.

 

Some Wardens are pragmatic enough that they think taking the advice of a Senior Warden to recruit Loghain is worth considering, regardless of what he's done. It's all about the roleplaying, and you can justify roleplaying choices in a LOT of ways, including for a mage who just doesn't care that the Circle went to **** because Loghain encouraged Uldred and Uldred was a psycho.

[Qis]

Zeveran's assassination attempt made things harder for you so did you kill him or recruit him?  If you did recruit him, was it because you felt his usefulness outweighed his past crimes?  This is an assassin that just tried to kill you and has probably murdered many other people in his life so a good and honorable warden should just kill him to see justice done right?  But did you?

 

What this have anything to do with the Tower problem? We don't recruit Uldred, didn't we?

[bunch1]

What this have anything to do with the Tower problem? We don't recruit Uldred, didn't we?

You don't want to recruit Loghain because he had a hand in the Tower which was a problem for you and delayed you from fighting the blight, forcing you into the fade and what not.  Zeveran's assassination attempt was a problem that delayed you from fighting the blight and could have seen all of Ferelden destroyed by the darkspawn if both wardens are killed.  So both Loghain and Zeveran are a cause for delays and problems in your job as warden but if you recruit Zev then you admit that that is not the reason you do not recruit Loghain.

[Kynare]

I always saw my HN and Loghain as "cut from the same cloth". Loghain had many more years on him, but my Cousland throughout the game made many pragmatic decisions and sacrificed a lot for the sake of power and resource during war. Since the usurping of Highever, he intended to marry Anora to gain more power and influence to the Cousland name, and decided pitting Loghain against the Archdemon would be a fitting way to get rid of him without Anora blaming him. So it just seemed right.

 

The only conflict came because Alistair felt differently about what the Wardens were all about. He thought it was a reward or an act of mercy, when Cousland really saw it as a curse and a fitting form of punishment, especially once Loghain was killed by the Archdemon. (which he wasn't thanks to le dark magics, but the intent was still there)

 

I never actually pictured it as my Warden's intention to betray Alistair, but he was focused on his own power and the power of the Wardens. Marrying the Queen seemed like a pretty solid decision to secure the Warden's position in Ferelden, as well as restore his dead family's reputation. Likewise, he could trust that (in a political sense) as long as the arrangement was equally beneficial to Anora, he had her father under his command and Ferelden behind his back believing he was a merciful war hero who spared the last person they looked up to, there was no real concern for being manipulated again. In all respects except for Alistair, it seemed like there were no downsides to the decision.

 

My Cousland had hardened Alistair and encouraged him to look out for himself, so the fact that Alistair stood up to him in the middle of the court and put his foot down made him smile like some doting older brother. But still not good enough to allow Alistair to "sabotage" his plans. He ended up having Anora spare Alistair and exile him instead. Alistair's decision to become a drunk was his own... but I like to headcanon that he comes back some day and puts down Cousland for good, lol.

 

Anyway... to summarize, you can really come up with any reason. It doesn't have to be a "good" or morally sound reason. My first playthrough was Amell who romanced Alistair and allowed him to kill Loghain, but I loved the above playthrough because it was so different.

[Qis]

You don't want to recruit Loghain because he had a hand in the Tower which was a problem for you and delayed you from fighting the blight, forcing you into the fade and what not.  Zeveran's assassination attempt was a problem that delayed you from fighting the blight and could have seen all of Ferelden destroyed by the darkspawn if both wardens are killed.  So both Loghain and Zeveran are a cause for delays and problems in your job as warden but if you recruit Zev then you admit that that is not the reason you do not recruit Loghain.

 

The Fade and Zevran are two different threats. Zevran only lead a bunch of mercenaries and they are beaten in seconds, even the second attack are no problem for The Warden to handle. But the Tower problem risking our resource, the Mages, because of Loghain the Mages are few if we save them or even all dead should we have to annul them or should we failed trying either. You can argue that Zevran and his goons might kill us, but it just that. In the Tower problem, either we dead or not, our troop is weakened, the Tower is not in a good condition to prepare in the coming war.

 

We might die at the hand of Zevran, but in anyway, Loghain leave Ferelden doomed with abominations and no Mages (or Templar for that matter) to help against the Darkspawn.

[bunch1]

The Fade and Zevran are two different threats. Zevran only lead a bunch of mercenaries and they are beaten in seconds, even the second attack are no problem for The Warden to handle. But the Tower problem risking our resource, the Mages, because of Loghain the Mages are few if we save them or even all dead should we have to annul them or should we failed trying either. You can argue that Zevran and his goons might kill us, but it just that. In the Tower problem, either we dead or not, our troop is weakened, the Tower is not in a good condition to prepare in the coming war.

 

We might die at the hand of Zevran, but in anyway, Loghain leave Ferelden doomed with abominations and no Mages (or Templar for that matter) to help against the Darkspawn.

If the wardens die, Ferelden dies with them.  If the tower is wiped out you could still recruit the humans, dwarves, and elves to fight, so you still would have a chance.  Without the wardens the civil war will continue to deplete Ferelden's human forces, the dwarves will remain underground struggling to decide their king, and the dalish will stay out of human affairs dealing with their own survival.  As far as threats to the cause the appearance of antivan crows, the finest assassins in the world, is about as dangerous as anything else that happens.  Which makes Zeveran a huge threat to Thedas as you would have nothing but his word he won't stab you in your sleep, and after he tried to kill you and let the blight take Ferelden is that really worth the risk?

[Qis]

If the wardens die, Ferelden dies with them.  If the tower is wiped out you could still recruit the humans, dwarves, and elves to fight, so you still would have a chance.  Without the wardens the civil war will continue to deplete Ferelden's human forces, the dwarves will remain underground struggling to decide their king, and the dalish will stay out of human affairs dealing with their own survival.  As far as threats to the cause the appearance of antivan crows, the finest assassins in the world, is about as dangerous as anything else that happens.  Which makes Zeveran a huge threat to Thedas as you would have nothing but his word he won't stab you in your sleep, and after he tried to kill you and let the blight take Ferelden is that really worth the risk?

 

Zevran is proven not a threat as soon after i recruit him. Loghain is proven a threat for 1 year.

[fdrty]

Agreed. If you encounter Alistair as a drunk in the Hanged Man in Kirkwall, one of the things he says is, "I'm sorry Duncan, I failed you." I suspect, based on some of his other rantings, that what the writers intended for him to mean by that is that because Loghain didn't get executed at the Landsmeet, Duncan went unavenged. I think the truth is more that he failed Duncan by deserting the Grey Wardens during a Blight.

 

To a Cousland who, as their father lies dying on the floor of the larder, says they want revenge against Howe, Duncan says, "A Grey Warden's duties take precedence, even over vengeance." Apparently, Alistair never got that speech. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Alistair. If he doesn't have a gigantic tantrum and abandon his duties because you decide to take the advice of the Senior Grey Warden and recruit Loghain, Alistair is great. He eventually makes an okay king if he's hardened, and he makes an excellent Grey Warden. But the "I'm deserting my duty because I can't have my way" thing really IS a slap in the face, and seems, at first, out of character. But then think back on the story he tells of his mother's locket and how he had a big tantrum and smashed it. Some things really never change.

 

Given some of the bits and facts we know about abandoned story turns, I suspect he was only supposed to have that tantrum if he was unhardened, and that he would have otherwise stayed (given the existence of conversation snippets where he and Loghain are talking to each other and the fact that at one time Loghain could be recruited much earlier in the game). That makes sense from a character perspective, but then they wanted to force the whole Dark Ritual thing so they created the "bottleneck choice" and broke a lot of things in the narrative (IMHO) in doing so.

 

Anyway, I do think Alistair's sudden hatred of the Grey Wardens because he couldn't execute Loghain is ham-handed story development, as it stands in the final version of the game. It is DEFINITELY Alistair deserting and betraying the Grey Wardens, and failing Duncan in the process. And, if you were romancing him at the time, breaking your heart in the most humiliating way possible (I have never spared Loghain when romancing Alistair, I just couldn't; I did create a game file to import into DA2 so I could see what Alistair the Drunk was like, though. And the one time I did spare Loghain, I arranged for him to marry Anora first, so I knew he'd be all right. Told you, I love Alistair.)

 

 

I think it can be a sensible decision to not recruit Loghain, given that he was responsible for the deaths of most of the wardens in Ferelden. How loyal would he be to that cause? Wouldn't he resent the wardens (as a lot of conscripts must, surely?) Is it justice for him to escape execution? Or is that what wardens do, they regularly recruit and protect criminals - they put stopping the blight ahead of individual instances of justice time and time again.

 

I think Alistair is not really that dutiful, he is emotional. He wants to cure the Blight out of loyalty to Duncan, who was, in many ways, his surrogate father. His motivation for his mission is his emotions. Duncan really is his emotional bond to the Wardens - he's loyal to them because he admires duncan's stoicism, and he wants to finish what Duncan started after he dies. That's why he can leave in the game, either in rage, or to become king. Because he has no emotional attachment to the Wardens once he has closure and revenge. In that regard, it isn't out of character for him to desire revenge over Loghain ahead of pragmatism, even if it is a stupid and selfish desire. It is who he's been for the whole game.

[bunch1]

Zevran is proven not a threat as soon after i recruit him. Loghain is proven a threat for 1 year.

Loghain is proven not a threat as soon after I recruit him.  Loghain has a long history as a hero and champion of his people, Zeveran's entire life is as an assassin.  Which do you put more trust in if your only going to recruit one?

[Qis]

Loghain is proven not a threat as soon after I recruit him.  Loghain has a long history as a hero and champion of his people, Zeveran's entire life is as an assassin.  Which do you put more trust in if your only going to recruit one?

 

Loghain recruited only at the last minute while you already gather an army toi beat Archdemon ass, before that he do whatever he can to fail you, even kill you at the Landsmeet as traitor to Ferelden.

 

I trust the assassin more, he just doing his job, and failed, nothing personal