125 réponses à ce sujet

[Asha'bellanar]

I think it can be a sensible decision to not recruit Loghain, given that he was responsible for the deaths of most of the wardens in Ferelden. How loyal would he be to that cause? Wouldn't he resent the wardens (as a lot of conscripts must, surely?) Is it justice for him to escape execution? Or is that what wardens do, they regularly recruit and protect criminals - they put stopping the blight ahead of individual instances of justice time and time again.

Of course. I have only recruited Loghain once in all the many times I've played through DAO, because most of the time, I have no reason to recruit him and I prefer the company of Alistair, who is funny and, by that time, my friend (or lover), as opposed to a sourpuss old man who sold people into slavery and convinced a stupid Orlesian woman to hire a blood mage to tutor her son in secret and did a bunch of other nasty stuff where the ends don't justify the means.

 

I'm not sure if you're trying to persuade me or someone else of something or...? If you're trying to convince me that executing Loghain has plenty of valid support, I have to say, you're not only preaching to the choir, you're arguing the majority position (which probably doesn't need to be argued). If you're trying to persuade me that Alistair is kind of emotional and fairly immature, again, preaching to the choir. If you're trying to convince me that "Alistair has to leave your party because then there will be only two Grey Wardens and it'll make the Dark Ritual every so much more dramatic" is high quality writing, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree. I prefer the earlier version of the game (from when it was in development) when there was the possibility of having them both in the party together. Just my personal opinion, mind you.

[bunch1]

Loghain recruited only at the last minute while you already gather an army toi beat Archdemon ass, before that he do whatever he can to fail you, even kill you at the Landsmeet as traitor to Ferelden.

 

I trust the assassin more, he just doing his job, and failed, nothing personal

I said before that Loghain's biggest problem is his timing.  He becomes a companion to late in the game.  Your party is already set by that point.

 

Beside that though Zeveran's entire reason coming to Ferelden was to kill you, business or not that is still kind of personal.  As for Loghain, he never does anything to you until the Landsmeet if I remember right, even Zeveran was hired by Howe.  Aside from that he is focused on the civil war while you settle everything else.  Loghain doesn't cause the dalish problem, the dwarf problem, is only responsible second hand for the tower, and while he arranged Jowan to poison Emon he didn't bring the demons and undead on the village of red cliff. 

 

So they both only try to kill you once.  Loghain admits defeat at the landsmeet and the only way he can continue to serve Ferelden is to serve as a warden.  Right or wrong he believed he was helping his country with his actions and he will bring that same dedication to the wardens.  Meanwhile Zeveran is a crow assassin who offers to join you right after you beat him and have him at your mercy and you don't find that offer suspicious?  We know that if he doesn't like you he will betray you later in the game, while Loghain will never betray the wardens.

[bunch1]

Of course. I have only recruited Loghain once in all the many times I've played through DAO, because most of the time, I have no reason to recruit him and I prefer the company of Alistair, who is funny and, by that time, my friend (or lover), as opposed to a sourpuss old man who sold people into slavery and convinced a stupid Orlesian woman to hire a blood mage to tutor her son in secret and did a bunch of other nasty stuff where the ends don't justify the means.

I don't recruit him just because he is old.  He's got to be 50-60 years old so how mush do you really expect him to be able to do on the battlefield surrounded by darkspwan.  My warden's usually just see him as an old past his prime war horse that outlived it's usefulness.

[Asha'bellanar]

I don't recruit him just because he is old.  He's got to be 50-60 years old so how mush do you really expect him to be able to do on the battlefield surrounded by darkspwan.  My warden's usually just see him as an old past his prime war horse that outlived it's usefulness.

Whatever. I managed to get three achievements out of it, so I was happy with that.

 

I'm also really puzzled as to why everyone suddenly thinks I'm some sort of Loghain fan or trying to tell people to recruit him. I've done it exactly ONCE, will never do it again (I don't like him, he triggers my father issues by reminding me too much of my father).

 

Do people not understand the purpose of a thread like this? Do they not understand the CONTEXT of the thread? What gives with that? How is me explaining how/why it could be possible and/or justifiable to recruit Loghain turn into me being the poster girl for "why you should recruit Loghain"?

[bunch1]

Whatever. I managed to get three achievements out of it, so I was happy with that.

 

I'm also really puzzled as to why everyone suddenly thinks I'm some sort of Loghain fan or trying to tell people to recruit him. I've done it exactly ONCE, will never do it again (I don't like him, he triggers my father issues by reminding me too much of my father).

 

Do people not understand the purpose of a thread like this? Do they not understand the CONTEXT of the thread? What gives with that? How is me explaining how/why it could be possible and/or justifiable to recruit Loghain turn into me being the poster girl for "why you should recruit Loghain"?

Yeah, a lot of people here are arguing against Loghain not giving a reason why an origin would recruit him.  But I've been argue trying to counter those arguments and give people a reason to recruit him this thread.  And I to recruited him once just to see his content.

[Asha'bellanar]

Yeah, a lot of people here are arguing against Loghain not giving a reason why an origin would recruit him.  But I've been argue trying to counter those arguments and give people a reason to recruit him this thread.  And I to recruited him once just to see his content.

Fair enough.

[Akka le Vil]

Oh he's wonderfully complicated, I love characters like that. He's not a straight up bad guy, but he does do some terrible things from our point of view while being perfectly justified from his. He's ruthless when it comes to saving Fereldan, willing to sacrifice everything to keep his homeland safe. His life, the trust of his friends, the woman he loves, her son, nothing matters if it means Fereldan is safe. It makes me truly wonder if he would have sacrificed Anora if it came down to it. He ordered Arl Eamon's poisoning, a man he clearly respects, for the sake of the realm. I wouldn't be surprised if he ordered the murders of the Cousland family so he could take power without having to worry about Bryce Cousland speaking against him. He's willing to make the hard choices, which makes him a wonderful foil to the PC, who could make just as many ruthless choices to stop the Blight. Doesn't mean any of my characters could justify letting him live, but he's beautifully written.

 

Aaaaand that was a lot longer than I meant it to be ^^; But I love the character

I would have liked a character like that, and it would have made for a powerful grey area.

The problem being, my beef with Loghain isn't the "Grey Warden equivalent" (doing the hard choices for the greater good), it's his utter stupidity (or the terrible story writing). I would have fought but respected Loghain if he actually "betrayed" the Warden and made ugly decisions that would have helped the Kingdom. But the fact is, EVERYTHING he did was utterly, totally, completely counter-productive on top of being morally bad. Not to say wildly contradictory (he often manages to make two completely opposite arguments, and acts in ways that directly goes against his own decisions).

I don't know if it's bad writing (he's SUPPOSED to be smart after all) or just a hamfisted way of making the player hate him, but I just can't find respect, or compassion, for someone who just does the bad decisions for the bad reasons, with stupidity in mind and ends up with terrible results.

[Qis]

I said before that Loghain's biggest problem is his timing.  He becomes a companion to late in the game.  Your party is already set by that point.

 

Beside that though Zeveran's entire reason coming to Ferelden was to kill you, business or not that is still kind of personal.  As for Loghain, he never does anything to you until the Landsmeet if I remember right, even Zeveran was hired by Howe.  Aside from that he is focused on the civil war while you settle everything else.  Loghain doesn't cause the dalish problem, the dwarf problem, is only responsible second hand for the tower, and while he arranged Jowan to poison Emon he didn't bring the demons and undead on the village of red cliff. 

 

So they both only try to kill you once.  Loghain admits defeat at the landsmeet and the only way he can continue to serve Ferelden is to serve as a warden.  Right or wrong he believed he was helping his country with his actions and he will bring that same dedication to the wardens.  Meanwhile Zeveran is a crow assassin who offers to join you right after you beat him and have him at your mercy and you don't find that offer suspicious?  We know that if he doesn't like you he will betray you later in the game, while Loghain will never betray the wardens.

 

Zevran is professional, he got paid and failed. It's fair. My Warden might not fully trust him, but we're talking honor here (being in MEDIEVAL ERA), he failed, offer to assist my Warden, my Warden accept.

 

While Loghain for 1 year being a traitor, do everything he can to fail you, want to kill you, paid Zevra to kill you, paid assassins everywhere to kill you (remember Orzamar?), hunting you down, blame his crime on you, making mess with your alliances (the Tower, Redcliffe), and want to kill you at the Landsmeet...you trust him fully?

 

Oh, Loghain didn't get into your party willingly, he just being in your party after a suggestion or he dead. It is not that he want to help you, he didn't offer to help himself and just wait to be punished, it just a last minute bargain. While in other way, Zevran help you all he can for 1 year....

 

He even fight Loghain as your champion if you choose him...

[Asha'bellanar]

The problem being, my beef with Loghain isn't the "Grey Warden equivalent" (doing the hard choices for the greater good), it's his utter stupidity (or the terrible story writing). I would have fought but respected Loghain if he actually "betrayed" the Warden and made ugly decisions that would have helped the Kingdom. But the fact is, EVERYTHING he did was utterly, totally, completely counter-productive on top of being morally bad. Not to say wildly contradictory (he often manages to make two completely opposite arguments, and acts in ways that directly goes against his own decisions).

I don't know if it's bad writing (he's SUPPOSED to be smart after all) or just a hamfisted way of making the player hate him, but I just can't find respect, or compassion, for someone who just does the bad decisions for the bad reasons, with stupidity in mind and ends up with terrible results.

A couple of things to consider. First, he actually didn't know why Grey Wardens were required to end a Blight (because Grey Wardens love their secrets), and he felt like Grey Wardens were Orlesian, which isn't true, but he is way seriously straight up paranoid. Everything in his world is coloured by his hatred of Orlais and all things Orlesian. He has good reasons for this, but his blind hatred made him, well, blind, and he didn't even have all the facts to begin with.

 

I'm in no way defending him, because he did some pretty horrible things, and supported Howe in doing even more horrible things. The ends do no justify the means. He seems to have sincerely believed that he was protecting Ferelden, but he wasn't, and it was his own blinkered worldview combined with just plain not knowing. I don't know if I'd call him stupid, exactly. Just really unable to see beyond his own point of view, and, as is mentioned in the game, thinking that he's the only one who can fix things.

 

Unfortunately, a LOT of Bioware characters come off as insufferably stupid. DA:I is rife with it (Clarel, Fiona, the entire Templar Order, most of the ranking members of the Chantry, the Venatori, pretty much every Orlesian noble, and on and on). DAO has Cailan (who was, actually, supposed to be a fool), Loghain, Howe (seriously, dude, you thought you'd get away with that?!), Zathrien, and more. In DA2 there are plenty of stupid people making stupid decisions of all sorts, too. I think it's the nature of the game that they try to convey what's going on and how complex thing are, etc., but they can only give just so much background information and it tends to make the characters who are making complex, difficult decisions for complex reasons just look like morons who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag.

 

This is part of why I'm such a lore hound. The more I know, the more I like it, because the better I can understand the complexities of the story. I love good storytelling, but when you only get the barest hints in the game, it's hard to get it. When I went into DA:I, for example, I hadn't read The Masked Empire and I had pretty much no clue who Celene, Gaspard, or Briala were, nor any reason why I should care which one of them was on the throne of Orlais or in what combination. The first playthrough I just kinda went, "Uh, well, Celene's already Empress, okay we'll go with that, I guess". It wasn't until much later when I'd had a chance to actually learn about these characters that I felt I could make an informed decision about them. (I do hate that in order to play a game fully you have to read a book or three about it, but I guess it's just a compromise because the DA story and world really are that complex.)

 

Bleah. Sorry for the essay. I've been in a write-comments-as-long-as-essays mood all day for some weird reason.

[bunch1]

Zevran is professional, he got paid and failed. It's fair. My Warden might not fully trust him, but we're talking honor here (being in MEDIEVAL ERA), he failed, offer to assist my Warden, my Warden accept.

Zeveran is an assassin not a knight which means his honor is what he decides it is and unpredictable.  He only wants to join the warden for protection and if you don't become very good friends with him he will turn on you to get back in with the crows, loyalty and honor that. 

 

 

While Loghain for 1 year being a traitor, do everything he can to fail you, want to kill you, paid Zevra to kill you, paid assassins everywhere to kill you (remember Orzamar?), hunting you down, blame his crime on you, making mess with your alliances (the Tower, Redcliffe), and want to kill you at the Landsmeet...you trust him fully?

 

Your pardoning of Zeveran proves you don't care about the lives lost as both hands are covered in blood, it's only a matter of degrees and that is your line you need to set a solid number for how many murders someone can commit and your ok with and just how much innocent blood is to much.  What you care about is the fact that he is delaying you in your fight against the blight and I can respect that.  But once the landsmeet is over he can not slow you down anymore and your senior warden advises you that more grey wardens would come in handy and since Loghain can no longer slow you down and is probably as loyal as a qunari child murdering spy or cowardly assassin were at the start your kind of warden have no reason not to give him a shot, because just like them he is a terrible person who might be useful.  Doesn't mean they have to, but in would be in character to.  No, I don't trust him but I don't trust Zeveran or Sten when I recruit them either, they have to earn it but I give them that chance so that is no reason not to give it to Loghain.

 

 

Oh, Loghain didn't get into your party willingly, he just being in your party after a suggestion or he dead. It is not that he want to help you, he didn't offer to help himself and just wait to be punished, it just a last minute bargain. While in other way, Zevran help you all he can for 1 year....

 

Sten didn't join your party willingly, he had orders to see the blight and you are his only option.

Zeveran didn't join your party willingly, you are his only hope of survival and he is using you as a meat sheild.

Alistar didn't join your party willingly, he is sworn to fight the blight and has no other choice.

Morrigan didn't join your party willingly, she was ordered to by her mother to cary the dark god baby.

Any conscripted warden is not there by choice either, so I don't see that as being a deal breaker.

 

 

 

He even fight Loghain as your champion if you choose him...

Loghain will kill the Archdeamon for you so if that is your messuring stick you'll have to give it to Loghain.

[Akka le Vil]

A couple of things to consider. First, [...] mood all day for some weird reason.

 

 

I don't mind people doing stupid things because they ARE supposed to be stupid (like Cailan) or people being mistaken/making errors because they were lead astray, and I even like a lot characters who actually have different opinions without it being about "factually right/wrong", be it due to culture/upbringing/point of view (Sten for example) or being overwhelmed by their emotion (Zathrian).

What I dislike about Loghain is that he's supposed to be a genius tactician and a hero of Ferelden, but his actions are just straight-up stupid and inconsistent. Basically, he's straddling the line between bad writing of a good character (he's intended to have good reasons and make hard but adequate decisions, and is only "wrong" because he's on the other side from the player) or good writing of a bad character (he's supposed to be a failure and an idiot out of his depth and frantically flailing his arms into oblivion). And it sadly seems he's on the first case, which means that Bioware simply dropped the ball on it, and it seriously damages the credibility of the story (and of the character), and makes sparing him an exercise in idiocy instead of an actual dilemma.

 

So again, the problem I have with Loghain is only partially the repulsiveness of his acts (it's really hard to justify slavery or letting thousands of people being eaten alive by darkspawns) but more the stupidity, absurdity and lack of consistency of such acts (he manages to simultaneously asks for not fighting the darkspawn right now, and not waiting ; WTF should they do then ?).

[Qis]

Zeveran is an assassin not a knight which means his honor is what he decides it is and unpredictable.  He only wants to join the warden for protection and if you don't become very good friends with him he will turn on you to get back in with the crows, loyalty and honor that. 

 

 

Your pardoning of Zeveran proves you don't care about the lives lost as both hands are covered in blood, it's only a matter of degrees and that is your line you need to set a solid number for how many murders someone can commit and your ok with and just how much innocent blood is to much.  What you care about is the fact that he is delaying you in your fight against the blight and I can respect that.  But once the landsmeet is over he can not slow you down anymore and your senior warden advises you that more grey wardens would come in handy and since Loghain can no longer slow you down and is probably as loyal as a qunari child murdering spy or cowardly assassin were at the start your kind of warden have no reason not to give him a shot, because just like them he is a terrible person who might be useful.  Doesn't mean they have to, but in would be in character to.  No, I don't trust him but I don't trust Zeveran or Sten when I recruit them either, they have to earn it but I give them that chance so that is no reason not to give it to Loghain.

 

 

Sten didn't join your party willingly, he had orders to see the blight and you are his only option.

Zeveran didn't join your party willingly, you are his only hope of survival and he is using you as a meat sheild.

Alistar didn't join your party willingly, he is sworn to fight the blight and has no other choice.

Morrigan didn't join your party willingly, she was ordered to by her mother to cary the dark god baby.

Any conscripted warden is not there by choice either, so I don't see that as being a deal breaker.

 

 

 

Loghain will kill the Archdeamon for you so if that is your messuring stick you'll have to give it to Loghain.

 

i. The honor is at my Warden part, not him

 

ii. There are dialogue path with him about all his victims where you can choose your responses. Also, he's a professional, he kill people for living, as any soldiers do........

 

iii. Other than Alistair, they all joined you with their own concern, you are free to dismiss them. Loghain offer nothing and just waiting to be executed until Riordan who give the suggestion, Loghain say not a word about it. Either you are conscripted or joined The Warden willingly is up to you.

 

iv. He done that out of guilt and expecting it, it's in his dialogue

 

Sorry, but now you have no point to defend Loghain anymore, all you do now is just giving straw men arguments

 

 

 

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.

[Aren]

 

Any conscripted warden is not there by choice either, so I don't see that as being a deal breaker.

 

I did not quoted the rest  of your post as i saw nothing with whom i disagree.

 

You can roleplay a character that wanted to become a warden and that decided this path but of course it's also a matter of game mechanics since you have to finish the game so of course you can't refuse being a warden otherwise you cannot play the story of DAO.

 

 

Alistar didn't join your party willingly, he is sworn to fight the blight and has no other choice.

Morrigan didn't join your party willingly, she was ordered to by her mother to cary the dark god baby.

 

 Alistair showed enthusiasm to absolve the task for the order, if he leave he is committing desertion since he leave even if he has high approval.

Similarly Morrigan  was never forced by Flemeth she chosed to attempt to use the warden and agreed to complete her mother's plan,in fact she leave only when the warden disrupt such plan and not when her mother is "killed".

 

[bunch1]

You can roleplay a character that wanted to become a warden and that decided this path but of course it's also a matter of game mechanics since you have to finish the game so of course you can't refuse being a warden otherwise you cannot play the story of DAO.

 

 Alistair showed enthusiasm to absolve the task for the order, if he leave he is committing desertion since he leave even if he has high approval.

Similarly Morrigan  was never forced by Flemeth she chosed to attempt to use the warden and agreed to complete her mother's plan,in fact she leave only when the warden disrupt such plan and not when her mother is "killed".

Game mechanic or otherwise the warden can show a reluctance through at least the early part of the game.  At Flemeth's hut for instance you can recommend leaving Ferelden entirely.  And Morrigan may choose to complete the task assigned her, but she was forced on the warden's at the hut after Ostagar.  You could dismiss her later but she is there because her mother told her to go, that is not to say she doesn't want to be there eventually, just that she did not choose to join.

 

 

i. The honor is at my Warden part, not him

 

ii. There are dialogue path with him about all his victims where you can choose your responses. Also, he's a professional, he kill people for living, as any soldiers do........

 

iii. Other than Alistair, they all joined you with their own concern, you are free to dismiss them. Loghain offer nothing and just waiting to be executed until Riordan who give the suggestion, Loghain say not a word about it. Either you are conscripted or joined The Warden willingly is up to you.

 

iv. He done that out of guilt and expecting it, it's in his dialogue

1.So your honorable warden kills unarmed men in cold blood, not allowing the state to set punishment for his crimes.  And he works with child murders, Sten who he got out of his prision, to I assume.  Very honorable indeed.

2.That is after you recruit him.  When you recruit him you have no idea about who or how many people he has murdered in cold blood.  Could be 100, could be 5 we don't know at that moment.  And soldiers and assassins are different, assassins tend to hunt down specific people to kill, while soldiers kill those that attack them in battle.  Even rampaging soldiers, who nobody likes, kill indiscriminately while an assassin knows the person they are trying to kill.

3.They joined because they had very little option's.  And Sten didn't offer to join you if I remember right.  He doesn't ask to get out of the cage and you have to prompt him to come with you so tack on the whole bashing in children's skulls thing and I assume you would say he should die to.

 

And your right, the warden being conscripted is up to the player.  So while a willing recruit may choose to see joining willingly as important, conscripted warden's would likely not as they are proof that the unwilling are just as useful as the willing, Alistar.

 

4.Doesn't change the fact that he does it.  Obviously he has guilt over what he did which isn't a bad thing.  Zeveran, Leliana, Wynne, Alistar, and Sten can all turn on you at points in the game, Loghain never will.  It's as simple as that when it comes to it the game proves he is more loyal then they are by being willing to serve despite fighting you for most of the game, he could have refused like Ser Jory after all.

 

 

Sorry, but now you have no point to defend Loghain anymore, all you do now is just giving straw men arguments

I'm not defending Loghain, just giving reasons, however much we may disagree personally, why a warden would choose to spare Loghain.  I don't like him and have only ever spared him once to see his content, otherwise I kill him to.

[Qis]

I'm not defending Loghain, just giving reasons, however much we may disagree personally, why a warden would choose to spare Loghain.  I don't like him and have only ever spared him once to see his content, otherwise I kill him to.

 

You're defending Loghain, my original post here have nothing to do with what you're argue with at all, and replying to the OP, not you. All your argument is to defend Loghain and why we should recruit Loghain, your argue that everyone else are evil too, that is your main point in which not what I argue with the OP.

 

It's straw man

 

To recruit companions or not is a player choice with layers own reason, but the OP is about LOGIC, which origin logically recruit Loghain, and i answer only Dwarf origin logically recruit Loghain since Dwarf origin have no relation with Loghain in any way. Then you suddenly come out on why I recruit Zevran in which have nothing to do with my original argument

 

Dwarf maybe, but Circle Mage no, because Uldred, Loghain promised him the First Enchanter position, but things not going as planned, leading to what happen in the Tower.

[Catilina]

You're defending Loghain, my original post here have nothing to do with what you're argue with at all, and replying to the OP, not you. All your argument is to defend Loghain and why we should recruit Loghain, your argue that everyone else are evil too, that is your main point in which not what I argue with the OP.

 

It's straw man

 

To recruit companions or not is a player choice with layers own reason, but the OP is about LOGIC, which origin logically recruit Loghain, and i answer only Dwarf origin logically recruit Loghain since Dwarf origin have no relation with Loghain in any way. Then you suddenly come out on why I recruit Zevran in which have nothing to do with my original argument

I see sense recruit him with Cousland man, who married Anora (just for Anora). And yes: as dwarf.

Spoiler

(But just as postponed execution; either use him to kill Arcdemon, or leave him in the Fade instead Hawke in Inquisition.)

[bunch1]

To recruit companions or not is a player choice with layers own reason, but the OP is about LOGIC, which origin logically recruit Loghain, and i answer only Dwarf origin logically recruit Loghain since Dwarf origin have no relation with Loghain in any way. Then you suddenly come out on why I recruit Zevran in which have nothing to do with my original argument

   Quote

    Dwarf maybe, but Circle Mage no, because Uldred, Loghain promised him the First Enchanter position, but things not going as planned, leading to what happen in the Tower.

 

My response to this was why the absolute no.  It is entirely possible to play a mage who hates the circle so what does Uldred have to do with anything.  If a mage warden hates the circle they would not care about what happens there or what Uldred did.  A devout adrastan who thinks like the mage girl we meet in the origins may hate their own magic and view it as a cures and relish the chance to purge the tower, in which case they would be glad to Loghain for the opportunity.  My original point to you being is why does Uldred have to be a deal breaker for a circle mage when there are dozens of different ways to play them were it makes sense for them to recruit Loghain.

[Catilina]

   Quote

    Dwarf maybe, but Circle Mage no, because Uldred, Loghain promised him the First Enchanter position, but things not going as planned, leading to what happen in the Tower.

 

My response to this was why the absolute no.  It is entirely possible to play a mage who hates the circle so what does Uldred have to do with anything.  If a mage warden hates the circle they would not care about what happens there or what Uldred did.  A devout adrastan who thinks like the mage girl we meet in the origins may hate their own magic and view it as a cures and relish the chance to purge the tower, in which case they would be glad to Loghain for the opportunity.  My original point to you being is why does Uldred have to be a deal breaker for a circle mage when there are dozens of different ways to play them were it makes sense for them to recruit Loghain.

And the pious mage warden has no regrets of many pious Templar victim? Or s/he describe them as necessary sacrifice? (A devout Andrastian never happy about that, I think. A lunatic zealot, yes.

 

And the pious mage warden what think about the slave trade?

[bunch1]

And the pious mage warden has no regrets of many pious Templar victim? Or s/he describe them as necessary sacrifice? (A devout Andrastian never happy about that, I think. A lunatic zealot, yes.

 

And the pious mage warden what think about the slave trade?

I was referring to how Ulderded's actions don't always mean a mage warden would hate him so much that he would blame Loghain for his actions and kill him out of that anger.  But I could have a warden mage who is a devout worshiper who envies the mages in Tivinter who have freedom as well and they practice slavery so I don't need to be overly horrified by that act as it's a part of the culture that warden would admire.  The warden would still have to stop them as they need ferelden support to stop the blight and ferelden's hate slavery.

[Catilina]

I was referring to how Ulderded's actions don't always mean a mage warden would hate him so much that he would blame Loghain for his actions and kill him out of that anger.  But I could have a warden mage who is a devout worshiper who envies the mages in Tivinter who have freedom as well and they practice slavery so I don't need to be overly horrified by that act as it's a part of the culture that warden would admire.  The warden would still have to stop them as they need ferelden support to stop the blight and ferelden's hate slavery.

Maybe I misunderstand you again (my English not the best)... but you talk about a devout Andrastian mage, who envies the mages in Tevinter, but hates his/her magical traits? This is not an oxymoron? 

[bunch1]

Maybe I misunderstand you again (my English not the best)... but you talk about a devout Andrastian mage, who envies the mages in Tevinter, but hates his/her magical traits? This is not an oxymoron? 

No.  Teventer worship the maker to.  But I was referring to your question how would a mage feel about slavery and I was simply point out that Teventer has mage freedom, slavery, and a belief in the maker so put those together and the slavery isn't' a huge thing nor is the destruction of the circle to that warden.  And if they belive magic a curs they could kill the mages, while still envying the freedom of the tiventer mages, and not be bothered by slavery.

[Catilina]

No.  Teventer worship the maker to.  But I was referring to your question how would a mage feel about slavery and I was simply point out that Teventer has mage freedom, slavery, and a belief in the maker so put those together and the slavery isn't' a huge thing nor is the destruction of the circle to that warden.  And if they belive magic a curs they could kill the mages, while still envying the freedom of the tiventer mages, and not be bothered by slavery.

Yes, I understood right then. Devoted Andrastians do not tolerate Tevinter's faith in the Maker. They consider them heretics. We talking on DEVOTED Andrastians, not moderate Andrastians, yes? A devoted Andrastian mage do not want to go in Tevinter. A mage, who hates his/her magic, do not want to go in Tevinter, and hates Tevinter mages. Do not forget the Chantry propaganda! And a devout Andrastian do not tolerate the slavery, I think (Andraste freed the slaves).

 

No. A devoted Andrastian mage probably feel disgust against Loghain because of Uldred and the Ferelden Circle.

 

But yes. This mage have a cause to recruit Loghain, if s/he do not want to kill him. But this applies to any character with any origin. Do NOT killing someone is not a crime, I think.

[Asha'bellanar]

What I dislike about Loghain is that he's supposed to be a genius tactician and a hero of Ferelden, but his actions are just straight-up stupid and inconsistent.

You won't get any disagreement from me on that count. I've said this very thing, in fact. The only excuse seems to be that his wild paranoia and lack of all the facts (i.e., that Grey Wardens are actually necessary to end a Blight). But, no, I agree.

[bunch1]

 

Yes, I understood right then. Devoted Andrastians do not tolerate Tevinter's faith in the Maker. They consider them heretics. We talking on DEVOTED Andrastians, not moderate Andrastians, yes? A devoted Andrastian mage do not want to go in Tevinter. A mage, who hates his/her magic, do not want to go in Tevinter, and hates Tevinter mages. Do not forget the Chantry propaganda! And a devout Andrastian do not tolerate the slavery, I think (Andraste freed the slaves).

 

No. A devoted Andrastian mage probably feel disgust against Loghain because of Uldred and the Ferelden Circle.

 

But yes. This mage have a cause to recruit Loghain, if s/he do not want to kill him. But this applies to any character with any origin. Do NOT killing someone is not a crime, I think.

 

Teventer still worship the maker and view Andraste as his prophet.  In real world terms the difference between the Chantry and the Imperial Chantry is the same as the difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church.  Both believe in God and Jesus as his son but Roman Catholics believe the Pope is Gods voice on Earth and Orthodox Catholics don't.  Both Chantrys have there own divines and disagree on there view of magic, but at the core level they share the same faith.  So saying that you can not have a devoted Teventer seems wrong to me. 

[Catilina]

Teventer still worship the maker and view Andraste as his prophet.  In real world terms the difference between the Chantry and the Imperial Chantry is the same as the difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church.  Both believe in God and Jesus as his son but Roman Catholics believe the Pope is Gods voice on Earth and Orthodox Catholics don't.  Both Chantrys have there own divines and disagree on there view of magic, but at the core level they share the same faith.  So saying that you can not have a devoted Teventer seems wrong to me. 

Absolutely wrong. The Tevinter Chantry is heretic in the eyes of the Chant of Light. The Tevinter Chantry's leader not a woman, but a man, the Chant of Light call him: Black Divine. And remember: when Hawke give a Tevinter Chantry pendant to Anders, Anders asked first: are you trying to kill me? (Or you dont played with DA2 and DA:I? – Maybe In the DA:O its not so clearly.)