Saren, which never states in the original game he plans to attack the Citadel and there isn't any evidence he plans to do so, but when you are at the endgame, the Council somehow knows he's going to attack them, because you apparently told them.
I'm pretty sure you DON'T tell the Council that Saren is planning to attack the Citadel (because you don't know before Ilos) and at the endgame the Council don't know and get taken by surprise, thus most of their fleet getting rekt
Let me put it this way:
Why in blazes would they bother with "durrr pre-Reaper War escape ship that somehow no one knows about" when it's simpler to just say it happened some anonymous amount of time later, have a switch-on/switch-off green glow effect for the Synthesis outcome, and vaguely reference whatever happened back in the Milky Way the way they usually do with plot choice imports?
Because then humans remain humans and other races remains themselves too, not green glowing mutants with Shepard dna and terminator components.
I'm pretty sure you DON'T tell the Council that Saren is planning to attack the Citadel (because you don't know before Ilos) and at the endgame the Council don't know and get taken by surprise, thus most of their fleet getting rekt
Yeah, that's what I meant. If Bioware decides the Genophage stays, how many people will go ''but I wanted it gone!!'' and so on and so forth?
Cripes, just Leliana being alive in DA2/DAI was enough to ruffle some feathers. And that would be very minor compared to Bioware having to set in stone most of the trilogy's big decisions.
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Tuchanka, I believe was the place where the genophage could be cure by activating its release from that tower. However, female Krogans can be in other planets at the same time as well. These, were not exposed to the cure. As a plot device, only female Krogans outside of Tuchanka were taken to the ARKs.
So, whatever decision was made in the Krogan home world, the problem is easily bypassed.
I'm pretty sure you DON'T tell the Council that Saren is planning to attack the Citadel (because you don't know before Ilos) and at the endgame the Council don't know and get taken by surprise, thus most of their fleet getting rekt
Yeah, they were absolutely right. Strategically, it was stupid anyways, and in retrospect it would have accomplished nothing except leaving the Citadel less defended.The funny thing is that the Council are actually kinda right about the fleet. Sending a fleet to Ilos wouldn't have helped -- unless maybe they could have bombed the Conduit from space.
Yeah, they were absolutely right. Strategically, it was stupid anyways, and in retrospect it would have accomplished nothing except leaving the Citadel less defended.
Pretty much almost everything the Council does is 100% reasonable. Of course they didn't believe Shepard, his evidence was a dream. Then when he semi proves Saren's a traitor, they DO take action - they send Shep after him. Then when he proves Saren is building a colossal army, they take action by reinforcing all roads that lead to the Citadel. Totally. 100%. Reasonable. And their inaction in ME2 is perfectly reasonable too. And their unwillingness to throw their fleet at Earth at the Alliances request in ME3, voting instead to play the defensive against a hopelessly superior force is absolutely reasonable and strategically sound too.
But Shep and everyone are like "man the Council is such a bag of dicks what's up with that".
True. I don't disagree with most of it.
But, like some have said, it's revealed in the Citadel DLC that they always knew the Reapers were real, so why didn't they support their best chance at defeating them, a.k.a. Shepard? Or at least come clean with him/her?
Hell, this person defeated their best spectre, a powerful matriarch, stopped a krogan clone army from being made, and killed a sovereign-class Reaper.
If they were worried about the population finding out, they could simply have worked in the shadows with Shepard, giving him/her resources, intel, but they never did it after ME1.
They could have directed Shepard's actions or at least exerted some control over him/her if they planned together for their arrival.
Besides, in ME3 the most obvious strategy is to unite every single race against them, not to take back Earth right away of course, like I've said before, but work together since the start and direct all the fleets to delay the Reapers, buying Shepard time to find out what the Catalyst is and recruit everyone.
The asari councilor says "I apologize for being so frank Commander, but your plan seems doomed to failure, we know, we've been there before."
"We must focus our attention on the arrival of the Reapers" "So no, the asari will not be at your summit"
What the f*k do you mean by focusing your attention on the arrival of the doom army of hell? How does that alone help the survival of the galaxy? Don't you think you need to prepare for that? Like, with everyone you can?
They withheld the most important source of information in the war (the Vendetta VI) because they didn't want to upset the balance of power in the galaxy, they said.
So they thought the reapers would never come for them later, and would just stop attacking the other races? Or they thought the others would be able to defeat them alone? Clearly, they didn't have a f*****ng idea what was happening on the rest of the galaxy or it's just plain bad writing for the sake of emotional and dramatic moments. Guess what I think.
If they revealed the Temple of Athame on the first visit to the Citadel, Shepard would've recovered Vendetta, learned what the Catalyst was when the Crucible was complete, Cerberus would've never gotten their hands on it, and the war would've finished a lot sooner, with no need for that huge battle over Earth and not as many casualties.
And, despite all the shitstorm the asari would've faced for withholding prothean technology, they would still have relative dominance over the other species at the end of it.
On a side note, I think the Dragon Age franchise is much better written.
The funny thing is that the Council are actually kinda right about the fleet. Sending a fleet to Ilos wouldn't have helped -- unless maybe they could have bombed the Conduit from space.
True. I don't disagree with most of it.
But, like some have said, it's revealed in the Citadel DLC that they always knew the Reapers were real, so why didn't they support their best chance at defeating them, a.k.a. Shepard? Or at least come clean with him/her?
Hell, this person defeated their best spectre, a powerful matriarch, stopped a krogan clone army from being made, and killed a sovereign-class Reaper.
If they were worried about the population finding out, they could simply have worked in the shadows with Shepard, giving him/her resources, intel, but they never did it after ME1.
They could have directed Shepard's actions or at least exerted some control over him/her if they planned together for their arrival.
Besides, in ME3 the most obvious strategy is to unite every single race against them, not to take back Earth right away of course, like I've said before, but work together since the start and direct all the fleets to delay the Reapers, buying Shepard time to find out what the Catalyst is and recruit everyone.
The asari councilor says "I apologize for being so frank Commander, but your plan seems doomed to failure, we know, we've been there before."
"We must focus our attention on the arrival of the Reapers" "So no, the asari will not be at your summit"
What the f*k do you mean by focusing your attention on the arrival of the doom army of hell? How does that alone help the survival of the galaxy? Don't you think you need to prepare for that? Like, with everyone you can?
They withheld the most important source of information in the war (the Vendetta VI) because they didn't want to upset the balance of power in the galaxy, they said.
So they thought the reapers would never come for them later, and would just stop attacking the other races? Or they thought the others would be able to defeat them alone? Clearly, they didn't have a f*****ng idea what was happening on the rest of the galaxy or it's just plain bad writing for the sake of emotional and dramatic moments. Guess what I think.
If they revealed the Temple of Athame on the first visit to the Citadel, Shepard would've recovered Vendetta, learned what the Catalyst was when the Crucible was complete, Cerberus would've never gotten their hands on it, and the war would've finished a lot sooner, with no need for that huge battle over Earth and not as many casualties.
And, despite all the shitstorm the asari would've faced for withholding prothean technology, they would still have relative dominance over the other species at the end of it.
On a side note, I think the Dragon Age franchise is much better written.
I haven't played the DLC mind you as I was done with ME3 long before it came out. But it seems to me that the Council basically sees Shepard as a total lunatic. That's how the old Council saw him, and it's kinda how the new one sees him (if there is a new one). So I'm not surprised they don't tell Shepard anything in ME2. Plus Shepard looks like an ultra-racist terrorist by shacking up with Cerberus.
Well, the Archives prove they didn't think he was a lunatic, so I think the answer is the last thing you said - he was dead for two years, seemingly resurrected (to them, uncertain if a clone, cyborg, or what Shepard actually is), and now works with a terrorist organization.
Not only would I not tell him anything in their place, but I would probably actively feed him misinformation too.
Well, the Archives prove they didn't think he was a lunatic, so I think the answer is the last thing you said - he was dead for two years, seemingly resurrected (to them, uncertain if a clone, cyborg, or what Shepard actually is), and now works with a terrorist organization.
Not only would I not tell him anything in their place, but I would probably actively feed him misinformation too.
And this is where it gets interesting...
Where was the proof he/she was dead and resurrected? They never found his/her body to begin with, only the word of a brittle bone pilot. So they just believe Shepard is dead without any real confirmation? Best guess is MIA. Death is as good a guess as captured by an unknown enemy, or the geth.
Anderson himself states that there are "rumors that you're working with Cerberus". Never any proof. They don't believe anything without confirmation, so why would they assume he is a clone or a cyborg?
They just saw him/her back, with the same appearance and personality as before, how come they would jump into conclusions? I think saving the big space station of galactic government would at least earn him/her the benefit of doubt.
Even the people you encountered on ME1 send you messages assuming you had to go undercover to investigate the geth or the missing colonies.
Like Shepard himself/herself states, "the Alliance wasn't listening, I needed Cerberus help, so I played along."
You can visit the Citadel first thing after Freedom's Progress. If the Alliance or the Council had worked with him/her, or at least provided more resources, Cerberus would've never been needed. There would be no new Normandy for fun, but Cerberus would not have been mandatory.
So, logic and the thrill of the emotional journey of these games to the devs can't go hand in hand. You have to force some absurd situations.
Hell, we've been resurrected in a two year period by an extremely well funded dark organization bent on human dominance with the purpose of defeating an impossible enemy. But then the leader of said organization changes his mind and says you cannot beat them because the odds aren't in your favor and decides to stand against you, while all along he was being controlled to some extent by the enemy and just cracked the shell out of the nut when they got in close proximity.
Two games looking to "find a way to stop the Reapers" - It happens in the first 20 minutes of the third game, conveniently.
Cerberus has intel on the Shadow Broker base of operations all along and they decide it's best to give it to you to share with your asari friend. But they don't investigate further first to take the base for themselves. With all the resources and capable people they possess, they wait until your asari friend is able to track down the base with the help of one salarian on Illium and then they go after it.
And this is where it gets interesting...
Where was the proof he/she was dead and resurrected? They never found his/her body to begin with, only the word of a brittle bone pilot. So they just believe Shepard is dead without any real confirmation?
Anderson himself states that there are "rumors that you're working with Cerberus". Never any proof. They don't believe anything without confirmation, so why would they assume he is a clone or a cyborg?
They just saw him/her back, with the same appearance and personality as before, how come they would jump into conclusions? I think saving the big space station of galactic government would at least earn him/her the benefit of doubt.
Even the people you encountered on ME1 send you messages assuming you had to go undercover to investigate the geth or the missing colonies.
"I saw you die" is literally the way people get declared KIA. And it's a perfectly sensible policy that if you don't recover a body that's been lost in space, that person is dead. Because they're going to die of oxygen loss, or burn up in the planet's atmosphere. There's no reason to doubt Shepard was dead during the 2 year interim. The idea that Shepard was resurrected is a little more insane than just having miraculously survived, but you have another witness to all of that: Liara, who recovered Shepard's dead body and specifically turned it over for the purpose of being revived from the dead.
As to working for Cerberus, you show up in a New Normandy that quite literally has the Cerberus logo slapped on it. Shepard does get the benefit of the doubt from everyone for saving their ass - it's why you're not immediately in jail for treason by working with a racist separatist group whose very ideology is in opposition to the organizations you swore oaths of loyalty to previously (the Council and Alliance, respectively).
"I saw you die" is literally the way people get declared KIA. And it's a perfectly sensible policy that if you don't recover a body that's been lost in space, that person is dead. Because they're going to die of oxygen loss, or burn up in the planet's atmosphere. There's no reason to doubt Shepard was dead during the 2 year interim. The idea that Shepard was resurrected is a little more insane than just having miraculously survived, but you have another witness to all of that: Liara, who recovered Shepard's dead body and specifically turned it over for the purpose of being revived from the dead.
As to working for Cerberus, you show up in a New Normandy that quite literally has the Cerberus logo slapped on it. Shepard does get the benefit of the doubt from everyone for saving their ass - it's why you're not immediately in jail for treason by working with a racist separatist group whose very ideology is in opposition to the organizations you swore oaths of loyalty to previously (the Council and Alliance, respectively).
True, but how do you assume Liara told anyone she saw Shepard dead?
She didn't bother to tell any of his/her friends she gave the body to Cerberus, let alone the Council.
And the logo is not Cerberus, it's the symbol of Cord-Hislop Aerospace, a business company which the Illusive Man owns as a front to cover his Cerberus operations. So no one knows it's really them.
True, but how do you assume Liara told anyone she saw Shepard dead?
She didn't bother to tell any of his/her friends she gave the body to Cerberus, let alone the Council.
And the logo is not Cerberus, is a the symbol of Cord-Hislop Aerospace, a business company which the Illusive Man owns to cover his Cerberus operations. So no one knows it's really them.
I've given up trying to understand ME's plot since ME1, because that game had so many plot-holes thinking hard about it actually wrecked my enjoyment of the game.
As for that logo not being Cerberus, the game seems to be less consistent on that one, as everyone just recognizes it as a Cerberus logo.
True, but how do you assume Liara told anyone she saw Shepard dead?
She didn't bother to tell any of his/her friends she gave the body to Cerberus, let alone the Council.
And the logo is not Cerberus, is a the symbol of Cord-Hislop Aerospace, a business company which the Illusive Man owns to cover his Cerberus operations. So no one knows it's really them.
I was wondering the same thing. If she recovered the body and handed it over for the express purpose of potential resurrection, why would she tell anyone about it?
"Oh, yeah, I recovered Shepard's dead body and handed it over to the insane terrorist group we spent all that time disrupting so they could resurrect him" is not something you report to the authorities or former companions if you want to be trusted or taken seriously ever again.
I can't speak to the DLC, but in ME1 the Council treats Shepard as a frothing at the mouth loon, and it's hard to say that they're wrong. In between his ranting and raving about his "visions", it's hard to really take Shepard seriously.
Really didn't think this scene could get any worse. This is going to be so much fun.
Oh, definitely. They don't believe him in ME1, but after the Battle of the Citadel they do. If you haven't watched a play through of the Citadel dlc, check it out (specifically the Citadel Archives part). In there, it shows that the Council knew Sovereign was a Reaper after the fact. Meaning, they knew it in ME2 and straight up lied to Shep's face (again, understandably). And they were actively researching Sovereign's tech during this time too.
The Council are pretty much full of ****. Much like real politicians, actually.
I'm just done with the ME3. I'm very much a "it's about the Journey when it ends in a meat grinder" type of person, so the awful ending has pretty much tained the series and ME3 especially for me. I'm still quite looking forward to ME:A and enjoyed ME3 a lot when I played it, but I really can't take the terrible ending. And it's a shame, because I've been OK with a lot of crap media.
Anyways, this retcon really doesn't make sense to me. I guess it's a way for them to set up ME:A, if that was already an idea that was rolling around in their minds at the time they created Citadel. But it really doesn't give with everything they do in ME2 - because if they said "Hey, tell Cerberus to **** itself, we're totes with you Shepster" (because that's how the Council talks, right?) - it would only be to their advantage.
Well, for what it's worth, the way a lot of the devs were talking at E3, the ME3 ending fiasco really hurt their feelings. I guess they genuinely thought it was a good ending, somehow (how, I don't know - it blows my mind). They took the criticism to heart, it seems.I'm just done with the ME3. I'm very much a "it's about the Journey when it ends in a meat grinder" type of person, so the awful ending has pretty much tained the series and ME3 especially for me. I'm still quite looking forward to ME:A and enjoyed ME3 a lot when I played it, but I really can't take the terrible ending. And it's a shame, because I've been OK with a lot of crap media.
Anyways, this retcon really doesn't make sense to me. I guess it's a way for them to set up ME:A, if that was already an idea that was rolling around in their minds at the time they created Citadel. But it really doesn't give with everything they do in ME2 - because if they said "Hey, tell Cerberus to **** itself, we're totes with you Shepster" (because that's how the Council talks, right?) - it would only be to their advantage.
Well, for what it's worth, the way a lot of the devs were talking at E3, the ME3 ending fiasco really hurt their feelings. I guess they genuinely thought it was a good ending, somehow (how, I don't know - it blows my mind). They took the criticism to heart, it seems.
So my hopes are very high for Andromeda. I'm excited for a new start, and every indication so far is they have learned from their mistakes.
That said, I'm not expecting the story to be stellar. I mean, myself and others here predicted the move to Andromeda and the Ark long before the official announcement. It was super duper incredibly predictable, and with that predictability, I'm sure, will come a certain degree of hand-waving with respect to the lore and a cliche plot.
But honestly, I'm okay with that. Start things over, get it right from scratch this time. A new setting and a new adventure. And perhaps the Andromeda plot will somehow tie back to the Milky Way and undo the state of the galaxy in the endings, or something. Who knows, there's a lot of potential here.
Agreed.
Well, for what it's worth, the way a lot of the devs were talking at E3, the ME3 ending fiasco really hurt their feelings. I guess they genuinely thought it was a good ending, somehow (how, I don't know - it blows my mind). They took the criticism to heart, it seems.
So my hopes are very high for Andromeda. I'm excited for a new start, and every indication so far is they have learned from their mistakes.
That said, I'm not expecting the story to be stellar. I mean, myself and others here predicted the move to Andromeda and the Ark long before the official announcement. It was super duper incredibly predictable, and with that predictability, I'm sure, will come a certain degree of hand-waving with respect to the lore and a cliche plot.
But honestly, I'm okay with that. Start things over, get it right from scratch this time. A new setting and a new adventure. And perhaps the Andromeda plot will somehow tie back to the Milky Way and undo the state of the galaxy in the endings, or something. Who knows, there's a lot of potential here.
The thing is, I never liked Bioware because they wrote morally complex stories with gripping character arcs that explored the human condition. 'cause, you know, lol, they never did. I liked Bioware games because they were basically cheap wish-fulfilment B movies were I kicked ass, took names, and got the guy/girl/girls as the case may be - basically, pulp stuff like Star Wars. I don't need a good story - I just need a passable action movie.
To put it another way - I want Guardians of the Galaxy or Avengers, not the Night Manager.
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