Among the DAO crew do you think there was someone which was not an hypocrite?
Maybe Sten but he is a Qunari so it is to be expected given their way of thinking,Shale and that saint of Wynne,the others.....well...
They can do the same thing they did with the Divine and clone Wynne with a spirit of faith.
If a person die in Thedas they can always bring them back with a spirit that looks and behave exactly like the original.
The dog is not a hypocrite.
My Answer?Off with his head.
I think that is fair, but I would suggest that the idea of "I will only help you if you become a Warden" is, to me in any event, rather abhorrent.
Duncan helped only the people whom he wanted to recruit or use and while i may argue that Duncan's desire is only the best interest of the world and that he is doing this only for the world i dislike this modus operandi as well which is not different than the one adopted by Flemeth.
The "i help you only because i need you" sorry i'm not an object and i do not desire your help if it is only meant to benefit from me much less if it is done with dishonesty both Duncan and Flemeth.
On the other hand he does know that he intends to poison them and ruin any chance they would have for any kind of a normal life. If you are a female and want children for example, you might get them.
I have always said that make the females join the wardens is the stupidest idea ever and it should be forbidden.They make a female a GW then at the end of her career they sent her on the deep roads where she will be found and turned into a broodmothers who will generate thousands of darkspawns....
My own theory is that Duncan had told Alastair about it. Given Alastair's penchant for deceit, he likely did not want HoF to know it much the same as what the physical changes would be. Just my thoughts.
Well, Oghren too, people may dislike him for being a drunk and some sort of comic relief, but I don't remember him lying, and while Morrigan lies and stuff, she at least doesn't hide her real personality, which puts her upstairs compared to Alistair and Leliana that also play to be saints and victims.
With Morrigan i disagree there are several instances in which you can see hypocrisy from her even if it is not the same kind of the one displayed by Leliana and Alistair.
Well, Oghren too, people may dislike him for being a drunk and some sort of comic relief, but I don't remember him lying, and while Morrigan lies and stuff, she at least doesn't hide her real personality, which puts her upstairs compared to Alistair and Leliana that also play to be saints and victims.
My own theory is that Duncan had told Alastair about it. Given Alastair's penchant for deceit, he likely did not want HoF to know it much the same as what the physical changes would be. Just my thoughts.
Where do you get this "penchant for deceit?"
Maybe Sten but he is a Qunari so it is to be expected given their way of thinking
The Qun states a commitment to rational thought, but forbids people to think for themselves. That's a pretty major hypocrisy.
Even for people whom i don't really like the rationale and that may pose a threat in the future(Alistair claim to the throne can be considered a threat) i tend to not kill because killing others is what make you less human at least less of a good person.
Duncan helped only the people whom he wanted to recruit or use and while i may argue that Duncan's desire is only the best interest of the world and that he is doing this only for the world i dislike this modus operandi as well which is not different than the one adopted by Flemeth.
The "i help you only because i need you" sorry i'm not an object and i do not desire your help if it is only meant to benefit from me much less if it is done with dishonesty both Duncan and Flemeth.
I have always said that make the females join the wardens is the stupidest idea ever and it should be forbidden.They make a female a GW then at the end of her career they sent her on the deep roads where she will be found and turned into a broodmothers who will generate thousands of darkspawns....
You could very well be right about the plothole, most likely the writers trying to coax you to a dark ritual which happens no matter what you decide. That is actually the reason I won't kill him in the game. He is a dimwit, but his crimes don't add up to Loghain. I think what we are saying here is that essentially the Wardens as a group are essentially amoral, bordering on the immoral in a lot of their actions. My biggest regret in the game is that there is no way I can kill Duncan except in the Fade, but as you say Jory deserves justice and the fact that the Wardens let women in to make more darkspawn surely does cast them in a less than heroic position.
Where do you get this "penchant for deceit?"
The Qun states a commitment to rational thought, but forbids people to think for themselves. That's a pretty major hypocrisy.
Alastair begins with being deceptive - understandably so - about the joining. After all he can hardly have the conscripts / recruits deserting out in the Wilds. Then he hides his parentage until Redcliff. In the very first camp scene he talks about the nightmares etc. and I ask him are their any other surprises? No, just dying young and defeat the Blight alone. But there are surprises, ugly ones. For males it is simply ghouldom. For females it is the potential to be a broodmother, and this after he attempts to seduce you. You should also take him to Denerim before the Alienage becomes available. Now he knows you are from the Alienage where your family lives, but when the guard talks about riots and the purge not a word of Gee, I'm sorry or any other such stuff. Of course this is only if you are a city elf. When he finally goes into his final speech about Duncan talking of going to the Deep Roads I invariably say he got what he deserved which infuriates him. Now flash forward to Denerim and suddenly he is upset because you don't take him to fight the Archdemon. These are some of the major things I recall.
The dog is not a hypocrite.
dog=god cannot be hypocrite.
Where do you get this "penchant for deceit?"
The Qun states a commitment to rational thought, but forbids people to think for themselves. That's a pretty major hypocrisy.
dog=god cannot be hypocrite.
Why it should be considered a form of hypocrisy?They seem to behave like eusocial species that has nothing to do with hypocrisy but more with them being detached from human logic.
I agree. So the dog is the only one who positively is not a hypocrite. Plus he / she has the added benefits of never lying.
Of course this is only if you are a city elf.
Alistair is more tolerable as a city elf,as a male human noble however he is totally insufferable not only an human male noble wouldn't be interested in his romance but also the fact that while you suffered more than him and keep it quiet without ever whining and instead doing the solo leader he continues to whine on your shoulder...
I agree. So the dog is the only one who positively is not a hypocrite. Plus he / she has the added benefits of never lying.
I think the dog is male because in a codex they said they used him to make offsprings with more females in WH.
Alistair is more tolerable as a city elf
Nah he is insufferable regardless of the Origin you picked.
Alistair is more tolerable as a city elf,as a male human noble however he is totally insufferable not only an human male noble wouldn't be interested in his romance but also the fact that while you suffered more than him and keep it quiet without ever whining and instead doing the solo leader he continues to whine on your shoulder...
I think the dog is male because in a codex they said they used him to make offsprings with more females in WH.
It is a good thing that he is a male I think. Otherwise the Wardens might taint him to make dogspawn. Ha.
Nah he is insufferable regardless of the Origin you picked.
I would give this a double like if I could.
Alastair begins with being deceptive - understandably so - about the joining. After all he can hardly have the conscripts / recruits deserting out in the Wilds. Then he hides his parentage until Redcliff. In the very first camp scene he talks about the nightmares etc. and I ask him are their any other surprises? No, just dying young and defeat the Blight alone.
This stuff I'll give you.
For males it is simply ghouldom. For females it is the potential to be a broodmother, and this after he attempts to seduce you.
My understanding is that the Wardens didn't know where broodmothers came from until Laryn told Alistair and the HoF. Which is a bit of a stretch, and really should have come up in-game, but hey. (Oh, this also explains why female Wardens were sent on the Calling.)
You should also take him to Denerim before the Alienage becomes available. Now he knows you are from the Alienage where your family lives, but when the guard talks about riots and the purge not a word of Gee, I'm sorry or any other such stuff. Of course this is only if you are a city elf. When he finally goes into his final speech about Duncan talking of going to the Deep Roads I invariably say he got what he deserved which infuriates him. Now flash forward to Denerim and suddenly he is upset because you don't take him to fight the Archdemon. These are some of the major things I recall.
I'll grant you that none of this is good, but what does it have to do with deception?
This stuff I'll give you.
My understanding is that the Wardens didn't know where broodmothers came from until Laryn told Alistair and the HoF. Which is a bit of a stretch, and really should have come up in-game, but hey. (Oh, this also explains why female Wardens were sent on the Calling.)
I'll grant you that none of this is good, but what does it have to do with deception?
The alienage stuff always appears to come up on my play throughs about the same time he is trying to romance me. I would sooner romance Oghren.
Why it should be considered a form of hypocrisy?
They seem to behave like eusocial species that has nothing to do with hypocrisy but more with them being detached from human logic.
They claim that the Qun is essential to reasoning, but forbid people to actually reason for themselves. Not only that, but the Ben-Hassrath re-educators liberally use faulty reasoning to paint all Tal'Vashoth with the same brush as part of their strategy to break those who wish to be Tal'Vashoth. I fail to see how that isn't hypocrisy.
I also take issue with the phrase "human logic." Logic isn't a question of your race. Whether or not you have horns, the fact remains that if you aren't careful to avoid logically invalid arguments (such as "my tamassran/keeper/revered mother said it so it must be true" or "these Tal'Vashoth/Qunari/Tevinters/humans murdered women and children so that's what Tal'Vashoth/Qunari/Tevintershumans do") it's too easy to draw false conclusions from true facts.
The alienage stuff always appears to come up on my play throughs about the same time he is trying to romance me. I would sooner romance Oghren.
Well, Oghren is a catch.
Jokes aside, I agree with you that there's things about Alistair that can turn someone off. But the Alienage thing came up while we were talking about deception. How does it qualify?
I have always said that make the females join the wardens is the stupidest idea ever and it should be forbidden.They make a female a GW then at the end of her career they sent her on the deep roads where she will be found and turned into a broodmothers who will generate thousands of darkspawns....
Grey Wardens are immune to the taint, they can't be turned into broodmothers.
Grey Wardens are immune to the taint, they can't be turned into broodmothers.
Resistant. Not immune. The taint eventually consumes a Grey Warden. It just takes a couple of decades.
But I imagine no Grey Warden, male or female, would allow themselves to be taken alive.
Duncan helped only the people whom he wanted to recruit or use and while i may argue that Duncan's desire is only the best interest of the world and that he is doing this only for the world i dislike this modus operandi as well which is not different than the one adopted by Flemeth.
The "i help you only because i need you" sorry i'm not an object and i do not desire your help if it is only meant to benefit from me much less if it is done with dishonesty both Duncan and Flemeth.
I don't see why Duncan is being dishonest. He one of the few characters that is really honest in the game. He outright tells that he recruited you because he though your abilities are an asset to the Grey Wardens, regardless of whatever you are or think about him. "That conscripting you saved your life is only circumstance", it's something he can say to every potential Warden at the end of their Origin stories. He is no convincing you with lies or that honor stuff Alistair and Fakewall prattle about, and can even say you that, is you're are a thief it doesn't matter as you don't get caught. And can even admit that the Joining is potentially lethal if you ask.
You can disagree with him and his methods, but Duncan is one of the few honest people in DA:O.
I ask him are their any other surprises? No, just dying young and defeat the Blight alone. But there are surprises, ugly ones. For males it is simply ghouldom. For females it is the potential to be a broodmother, and this after he attempts to seduce you.
There is the possibility that he didn't knew about that. He was, after all, only a junior member of the Orden during the Fifth Blight; and as Stroud/Loghain/Alistair say in DA:I, there is stuff among the Wardens that only is revealed to a very few senior Wardens (like the existence of Corypheus, the truth behind the Calling, etc.). It would be obvious that something so cruel like the existence of Broodmothers, is keep a secret to the junior Wardens.
Resistant. Not immune. The taint eventually consumes a Grey Warden. It just takes a couple of decades.
But I imagine no Grey Warden, male or female, would allow themselves to be taken alive.
I am sure they wouldn't if they were in their right minds. However in Awakening all of the Wardens are taken alive at the Vigil and later the Warden Commander is captured alive. So, with respect, being a brood mother is no out of the question.
Resistant. Not immune. The taint eventually consumes a Grey Warden. It just takes a couple of decades.
But I imagine no Grey Warden, male or female, would allow themselves to be taken alive.
Fine. To clarify: immune to external sources of taint. You could dump a bucket of darkspawn blood over a Grey Warden and they'd be perfectly fine. They're still immune to being transformed into broodmothers.
Fine. To clarify: immune to external sources of taint. You could dump a bucket of darkspawn blood over a Grey Warden and they'd be perfectly fine. They're still immune to being transformed into broodmothers.
With due respect, that is not the case. In the Last Flight one of the Wardens says something like she would rather die than be turned into a brood mother. The transformation involves magic of course, and Wardens are not immune to that.
With due respect, that is not the case. In the Last Flight one of the Wardens says something like she would rather die than be turned into a brood mother. The transformation involves magic of course, and Wardens are not immune to that.
Then either she's an ignoramus or the author was, because it would be utter insanity to have female Grey Wardens at all if they were vulnerable to it.
I am sure they wouldn't if they were in their right minds. However in Awakening all of the Wardens are taken alive at the Vigil and later the Warden Commander is captured alive. So, with respect, being a brood mother is no out of the question.
True enough.
Then either she's an ignoramus or the author was, because it would be utter insanity to have female Grey Wardens at all if they were vulnerable to it.
And that sadly is the point. BioWare did write all the canon which just makes the conscripting let alone recruiting of women into the Wardens abhorrent.
I understand your frustration with them.
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