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[rapscallioness]

 

It's not about their lifespan but more about Corypheus.

Why i should prefer a tainted person as an ally over someone which is not tainted with Corypheus as opponent?

Plus should the well of sorrow failed in theory we could have still used Hawke blood to imprison Corypheus

In short Hawke is more valuable than Alistair in the eye of any rational Inquisitor who is not making the choice for the sake of the HoF.

 

 

This is true, too. Honestly, in the first PT, I did not know that that was it for Hawke. I thought Hawke was going to actually have the chance to confront Cory like they were going on about. Either by joining us, or perhaps some ill fated attempt on their own.

 

I didn;t know they were going off to Warden HQ.

[Spirit Vanguard]

 

It's not about their lifespan but more about Corypheus.

Why i should prefer a tainted person as an ally over someone which is not tainted with Corypheus as opponent?

Plus should the well of sorrow failed in theory we could have still used Hawke blood to imprison Corypheus

In short Hawke is more valuable than Alistair in the eye of any rational Inquisitor who is not making the choice for the sake of the HoF.

 

 

Corypheus I understand, but it wasn't presented that way which is why I was curious.

 

That last line is a little harsh, though. I personally didn't spare Alistair just because I love him or for the HoF, but because I also genuinely thought he would've been helpful moving forward as I had no intention of "punishing" the Wardens. BUT, that's a whole different thing I suppose.

[Lunatica]

This is true, too. Honestly, in the first PT, I did not know that that was it for Hawke. I thought Hawke was going to actually have the chance to confront Cory like they were going on about. 

 

I didn;t know they were going off to Warden HQ.

"Corypheus is my responsibility" -Hawke right before buggering off to Weisshaupt and not helping with Corypheus at all. 

[Andromelek]

I find this idea of "they're sick/gonna die anyway" to be a little strange. Just because their natural lifespan has been shortened and they carry the Blight that somehow means they can't still live a meaningful life compared to Hawke? It is quantity over quality, then?

Quality? What exactly have they done of quality? With Loghain you can argue that he was a veteran hero and a great tactician (which is worth nothing because he's now a pawn) but you dare to compare Alistair and Hawke!?

You are comparing a whiny treacherous brat who always had backup from the people who knew his father and that has never accomplished anything for his own to a no-one that started from zero and that fought his/her way to the top achieving a power comparable to the ruler of the city just with his/her popularity... so yes Hawke is the option to pick up if you are onto someone functional.

[DreamerM]

For what it's worth, Hawke/Warden's death is never CONFIRMED. They are alive, the last time we see them. Almost anything's possible in the Fade.... not likely. But possible.

[Vanilka]

Warden Alistair is my personal canon. I love it that way. Hawke is the one that gets left behind in the Fade because she's my character and I expect those to take one for the team. Plus, releasing Corypheus is partly Hawke's responsibility and it makes sense for her to want to fix that. (At least it does for my character.) Unlike Hawke, the Warden actually has responsibilities and some work to do afterwards. Her being a mage gives her a decent fighting chance. Well, and it's not like I've ever been awfully fond of Hawke anyway. I found out that the only reason I care about what happens to her at all is mostly because her love interest would be left alone and that's not enough motivation for me to choose her over a character I actually like that still has work to do and that also has somebody waiting and caring for him.

 

I still like to think Hawke can pull her own weight and I go with the alive-until-proven-dead scenario, as well. Somebody here mentioned that Flemeth's words in DAII might've meant something and I really like the idea. Even though I'm not a big fan of Hawke, I still don't wish for her to die. I can't say that leaving her behind didn't bother me at all. It still was a no-brainer, though.

[Andromelek]

For what it's worth, Hawke/Warden's death is never CONFIRMED. They are alive, the last time we see them. Almost anything's possible in the Fade.... not likely. But possible.

Well, people does talk of how the dude that was left behind is dead, but then death in Thedas is more or less like this , with more uncles Ben and Wayne parents but still...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I still like to think Hawke can pull her own weight and I go with the alive-until-proven-dead scenario, as well. Somebody here mentioned that Flemeth's words in DAII might've meant something and I really like the idea. Even though I'm not a big fan of Hawke, I still don't wish for her to die. I can't say that leaving her behind didn't bother me at all. It still was a no-brainer, though.

Whoever you leave behind collapses in the first few seconds of their "fight" with Nightmare. Including Mage!Hawke. If Hawke is alive, it's because Nightmare wills it. So pray that Hawke is dead.

[Vanilka]

Whoever you leave behind collapses in the first few seconds of their "fight" with Nightmare. Including Mage!Hawke. If Hawke is alive, it's because Nightmare wills it. So pray that Hawke is dead.

 

And your proof is...?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And your proof is...?

If you look over the Inquisitior's shoulder here, you can see Hawke losing to Nightmare. It's hard to tell whether Hawke collapses the way I remember, since there's a cloud of dust in the shot that I remember being absent (I could swear some of the lower quality videos here show Hawke falling to their knees behind a tentacle, but I remember they were blurry and I can't find them again anyway.) Anyway, the other easy interpretation of the one I posted is Hawke being paralyzed while Nightmare turns to the ones who are fleeing and floats over Hawke. That's not much more hopeful.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Quality? What exactly have they done of quality? With Loghain you can argue that he was a veteran hero and a great tactician (which is worth nothing because he's now a pawn) but you dare to compare Alistair and Hawke!?
You are comparing a whiny treacherous brat who always had backup from the people who knew his father and that has never accomplished anything for his own to a no-one that started from zero and that fought his/her way to the top achieving a power comparable to the ruler of the city just with his/her popularity... so yes Hawke is the option to pick up if you are onto someone functional.

It wasn't my intention to offend with the question. I was just curious to the reasoning behind it since it was only presented as "sick/gonna die" with little elaboration. I said quantity over quality because that was the best way I could think to phrase it. It felt like it was the idea that "more time means better." I was referring to the idea, not comparing the characters or attacking them.

Couldn't someone with less time still potentially do just as much as or more than someone with more? --Perhaps I should've asked it that way in the start.

[Vanilka]

If you look over the Inquisitior's shoulder here, you can see Hawke losing to Nightmare. It's hard to tell whether Hawke collapses the way I remember, since there's a cloud of dust in the shot that I remember being absent (I could swear some of the lower quality videos here show Hawke falling to their knees behind a tentacle, but I remember they were blurry and I can't find them again anyway.) Anyway, the other easy interpretation of the one I posted is Hawke being paralyzed while Nightmare turns to the ones who are fleeing and floats over Hawke. That's not much more hopeful.

 

But still nothing that actually shows them dying or their dead body. It's not like all BW heroes and their companions haven't been through preposterously unlikely and dangerous situations before. Leliana and Anders were resurrected for some. So a second of wavering means little. And if a BioWare writer himself says it's ambiguous, then it's ambiguous. I'm just one of those that prefer to be positive about it. Particularly since I thought that the choice came out of nowhere. I also like the idea of somebody trying to find their way through the insane place that is the Fade.

 

Thanks for the links, though. I haven't seen that with my Hawke.

[Spirit Vanguard]

I still like to think Hawke can pull her own weight and I go with the alive-until-proven-dead scenario, as well. Somebody here mentioned that Flemeth's words in DAII might've meant something and I really like the idea. Even though I'm not a big fan of Hawke, I still don't wish for her to die. I can't say that leaving her behind didn't bother me at all. It still was a no-brainer, though.

Maybe Hawke will return as a dragon with magical dragon powers. That would be completely ok with me. Haha...

I've always wanted to be a dragon...

[Vanilka]

Maybe Hawke will return as a dragon with magical dragon powers. That would be completely ok with me. Haha...

I've always wanted to be a dragon...

 

Oh my! Plot twist! But how will she cuddle the grumpy anime elf boyfriend then? 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But still nothing that actually shows them dying or their dead body. It's not like all BW heroes and their companions haven't been through preposterously unlikely and dangerous situations before. Leliana and Anders were resurrected for some. So a second of wavering means little. And if a BioWare writer himself says it's ambiguous, then it's ambiguous. I'm just one of those that prefer to be positive about it. Particularly since I thought that the choice came out of nowhere. I also like the idea of somebody trying to find their way out through the insane place that is the Fade.

 

Thanks for the links, though. I haven't seen that with my Hawke.

Did a Bioware writer himself say it was ambiguous? What I remember doesn't look ambiguous, although apparently I wasn't seeing the scene as I was meant to even if I am remembering it correctly. And the scene doesn't feel ambiguous even if I watch the version where you don't watch Hawke collapse. If the party bolstered with the Warden contact and a past PC isn't able to win this one, why on earth would one member of the group do better? Especially after we watch them appear to lose? But the writers know what they meant to show us, and they have a better idea where this plot line is planned to go than we do, so if you post a link I'll let this go.

 

Edit: Also, I think Anders being resurrected was just a retcon. I don't think Bioware thought through how to reconcile all the plot-lines there, and decided to just assume he Joined the Wardens and met Justice even though that's not actually true in all world-states. Leiliana is shown to have actually died, but Anders seems to be assumed by canon to have Joined the Wardens and befriended Justice even though it's possible neither happened.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Oh my! Plot twist! But how will she cuddle the grumpy anime elf boyfriend then? 

 

I imagine the same way the Dragon did with Donkey in Shrek.

 

[Vanilka]

Did a Bioware writer himself say it was ambiguous? What I remember doesn't look ambiguous, although apparently I wasn't seeing the scene as I was meant to even if I am remembering it correctly. And the scene doesn't feel ambiguous even if I watch the version where you don't watch Hawke collapse. If the party bolstered with the Warden contact and a past PC isn't able to win this one, why on earth would one member of the group do better? Especially after we watch them appear to lose? But the writers know what they meant to show us, and they have a better idea where this plot line is planned to go than we do, so if you post a link I'll let this go.

 

Edit: Also, I think Anders being resurrected was just a retcon. I don't think Bioware thought through how to reconcile all the plot-lines there, and decided to just assume he Joined the Wardens and met Justice even though that's not actually true in all world-states. Leiliana is shown to have actually died, but Anders seems to be assumed by canon to have Joined the Wardens and met Justice even though it's possible neither happened.

 

Yes. Yes, he did.

 

And who has ever said anything about winning? Escaping is all they need to do. I just think that being like, "Hey, there's a bigass demon in our way, let's throw somebody at it without trying anything else first, but let's also have a stupidly long conversation about it before we do that," is bullshit. Don't know why some people are so ready and eager to go with something so ridiculous but whatever. Also, different people see and interpret things their way. To me it's always been ambiguous. Not even Sera is sure and says "probably". Either way, enjoy your unconfirmed headcanon and I will enjoy mine.

 

My point in bringing up Anders and Leliana was that you don't know what BioWare may come up with next and what their intentions might be. It's nice you have your own interpretation of the game's events, but it'd also be nice if you didn't force them on other people because of one second of whatever happens in your game that I haven't even seen in mine.

[DreamerM]

Yes. Yes, he did.

 

I would just like to point out in addition that in DA, when someone IS dead, there isn't much ambiguity about it. We either see the corpse onscreen (Cailan, Duncan, Riordan, the Hawke sibling(s) ) or we see physical proof that it happened (Alistair's sad box of equipment).

We get neither of those things with Hawke.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes. Yes, he did.

 

And who has ever said anything about winning? Escaping is all they need to do. I just think that being like, "Hey, there's a bigass demon in our way, let's throw somebody at it without trying anything else first, but let's also have a stupidly long conversation about it before we do that," is bullshit. Don't know why some people are so ready and eager to go with something so ridiculous but whatever. Also, different people see and interpret things their way. To me it's always been ambiguous. Not even Sera is sure and says "probably". Either way, enjoy your unconfirmed headcanon and I will enjoy mine.

 

My point by bringing up Anders and Leliana was that you don't know what BioWare may come up with next and what their intentions might be. It's nice you have your own interpretation of the game's events, but it'd also be nice if you didn't force them on other people because of one second of whatever happens in your game that I haven't even seen in mine.

About the only way I can think of that Hawke could have survived the Nightmare demon (barring the Nightmare demon choosing not to kill them) is if it was blown off of them by the Inquisitor apparently "banishing the demon to the depths of the Fade." Surviving the Fade is another challenge. Even if biological needs don't apply in there (which is plausible but to the best of my knowledge unproven) whoever you leave behind is in a realm with not-very-pleasant beings all around. On top of which iirc being physically in the Fade without the Anchor is supposed to be just in and of itself not good for you. Multiply that by the plot having progressed two years so far without any sign Hawke (or whoever else) escaped...

 

I guess there's a chance, but the fact remains that Patrick Weeks saying it's ambiguous is really what tipped me rather than anything we can observe in the game. (And he didn't actually say Hawke lives or even that Hawke does have a chance. Only that we didn't watch Hawke die. The link implies he was even more vague in the interview the link responds to. I'm half wondering if he did that on purpose.)

[Vanilka]

I would just like to point out in addition that in DA, when someone IS dead, there isn't much ambiguity about it. We either see the corpse onscreen (Cailan, Duncan, Riordan, the Hawke sibling(s) ) or we see physical proof that it happened (Alistair's sad box of equipment).

We get neither of those things with Hawke.

 

Good point. I also think that off-screen deaths are simply a little cheap and unimpressive.

 

I'm fine if people want to believe that whoever they left in the Fade is dead. It is a situation that even Hawke is not awfully likely to survive. Their thoughts on the matter are not unfounded. But I'm not convinced just yet myself and how it was handled plays a large role in it, including the big "will likely" bubbles popping up over the choices which is much different from e.g. the decision where you can let Bull's Chargers die that state so explicitly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Good point. I also think that off-screen deaths are simply a little cheap and unimpressive.

 

I'm fine if people want to believe that whoever they left in the Fade is dead. It is a situation that even Hawke is not awfully likely to survive. Their thoughts on the matter are not unfounded. But I'm not convinced just yet and how it was handled plays a large role in it, including the big "will likely" bubbles popping up over the choices which is much different from e.g. the decision where you can let Bull's Chargers die that state so explicitly.

What I've actually been hoping for is that the Nightmare demon possessed them, because if they actually create a boss battle that varies from import to import and might be Loghain? Freaking awesome.

 

The main problem is that even with the cool stuff they've done with imports in Inquisition, that'd be more work than they've ever done. Then from an in-game perspective there's little reason for that to happen, since most demons seem to possess mortals as a way of experiencing the mortal realm... which possessing someone physically trapped in the Fade doesn't help with much.

 

One bit I feel the need to correct you on is that I don't necessarily want whoever I left behind to be dead. I actually find I agree that that would feel cheap and unimpresssive. I just think it makes more sense than anything else.

[Vanilka]

About the only way I can think of that Hawke could have survived the Nightmare demon (barring the Nightmare demon choosing not to kill them) is if it was blown off of them by the Inquisitor apparently "banishing the demon to the depths of the Fade." Surviving the Fade is another challenge. Even if biological needs don't apply in there (which is plausible but to the best of my knowledge unproven) whoever you leave behind is in a realm with not-very-pleasant beings all around. On top of which iirc being physically in the Fade without the Anchor is supposed to be just in and of itself not good for you. Multiply that by the plot having progressed two years so far without any sign Hawke (or whoever else) escaped...

 

I guess there's a chance, but the fact remains that Patrick Weeks saying it's ambiguous is really what tipped me rather than anything we can observe in the game. (And he didn't actually say Hawke lives or even that Hawke does have a chance. Only that we didn't watch Hawke die. The link implies he was even more vague in the interview the link responds to. I'm half wondering if he did that on purpose.)

 

Yeah, I'm not saying Hawke is crazy likely to survive. I never have. I'm just saying I don't like how the situation was handled which makes me unhappy to be forced into that choice to begin with and I don't see the same things in it that somebody else might. That's all. And I think that's okay because we all play differently and we all have thoughts on the matter. The Fade would definitely not be a place to spend your holiday in, that much is for sure.

 

From Patrick Weekes' answer I mostly take that he wants to leave it open to interpretation. Killing off the player character from the previous game is a big deal after all and should be handled very carefully, so it's quite smart of him to give no precise answers, leaving everybody believing in what they want to believe. Plus, I think it's nice that people come up with many different interpretations and possible scenarios if you let them. I really like that somebody brought up Flemeth in this thread because it's yet another factor that could play a role in Hawke's unlikely survival, because her words in DAII were rather mysterious and sounded important. I wouldn't want every important character's death handled this way, but if we're forced into this situation, I'm all right with it just this once.  And if they're eventually confirmed dead? Then my Hawke will be dead. But until then, I like thinking about all the possibilities.

[Andromelek]

It wasn't my intention to offend with the question. I was just curious to the reasoning behind it since it was only presented as "sick/gonna die" with little elaboration. I said quantity over quality because that was the best way I could think to phrase it. It felt like it was the idea that "more time means better." I was referring to the idea, not comparing the characters or attacking them.
Couldn't someone with less time still potentially do just as much as or more than someone with more? --Perhaps I should've asked it that way in the start.

I take no offense at all, but you should stop arguing that there is some logic on choosing Alistair over Hawke as there is none, the only reason of why someone would pick him over Hawke is a straight up "I like him better than Hawke", and that's ok, but out of the three Wardens he is the more useless, and can't even be say that he is a good person to argue that he didn't have that coming.

[Vanilka]

What I've actually been hoping for is that the Nightmare demon possessed them, because if they actually create a boss battle that varies from import to import and might be Loghain? Freaking awesome.

 

The main problem is that even with the cool stuff they've done with imports in Inquisition, that'd be more work than they've ever done. Then from an in-game perspective there's little reason for that to happen, since most demons seem to possess mortals as a way of experiencing the mortal realm... which possessing someone physically trapped in the Fade doesn't help with much.

 

One bit I feel the need to correct you on is that I don't necessarily want whoever I left behind to be dead. I actually find I agree that that would feel cheap and unimpresssive. I just think it makes more sense than anything else.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean "want" that way. More like "are inclined to believe". Well, but it applies to people who wish to believe that, as well. I'm sure some people do want the person left in the Fade to be dead. There's a lot of opinions in this thread alone.

 

The boss battle idea would sure be interesting. But I agree it might turn out to be too much work and how custom Hawkes would be handled... hard to say. Without the import feature in particular. They might have to make something universal. The demon could use the person stuck in the Fade to enter the physical realm perhaps, but it would be exiting its own domain, so I wonder whether it would see it as beneficial. It seemed pretty happy where it was.

[Spirit Vanguard]

I take no offense at all, but you should stop arguing that there is some logic on choosing Alistair over Hawke as there is none, the only reason of why someone would pick him over Hawke is a straight up "I like him better than Hawke", and that's ok, but out of the three Wardens he is the more useless, and can't even be say that he is a good person to argue that he didn't have that coming.

I'm not arguing over logic or Alistair being a better choice. I was trying to discuss the abstract/philosophical idea of what time means for life. "Is more really better?"

In no way am I trying to say that Alistair is better than other characters and/or the choice to leave him is invalid. Please don't equate my fondness for picking Alistair as fan babble about his "superior value". In our other discussion it seemed like I wasn't being understood so I was trying to better explain myself. This and that are two different topics.

Edit: And saying there's no logic in choosing Alistair is pure opinion, as with any of the other characters.