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Warden Alistair. That was a bad idea.


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#101
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Sorry, I didn't mean "want" that way. More like "are inclined to believe". Well, but it applies to people who wish to believe that, as well. I'm sure some people do want the person left in the Fade to be dead. There's a lot of opinions in this thread alone.

I see what you're saying.

 

 

The boss battle idea would sure be interesting. But I agree it might turn out to be too much work and how custom Hawkes would be handled... hard to say. Without the import feature in particular. They might have to make something universal. The demon could use the person stuck in the Fade to enter the physical realm perhaps, but it would be exiting its own domain, so I wonder whether it would see it as beneficial. It seemed pretty happy where it was.

Wait, aren't they doing the import? Or are you just asking how it would be handled for those who don't import?

 

As for how custom Hawkes would be handled, I can't see why what they did in Inquisition (namely a customization screen that appears the second before you see Hawke) isn't an option.

 

I also don't think that a person stuck in the Fade would be a conduit to the mortal realm. If they were, we might have managed to sneak around Nightmare instead of needing to use that rift.

 

As for the demon exiting its own domain... yeah, I don't know why the Nightmare would want to do that either. But somehow demons do all seem to want to leave the Fade, or at least experience what it is to be outside of it. The demons that possess mages all seem to do so as a ticket to the mortal realm, the Baroness seemed entirely okay with accidentally forcing herself out of the Fade, and there's probably other examples. Come to think of it that desire to know what the other side is might even be a reason for Nightmare wanting to possess a mortal even though there's no benefit to doing so. Sort of like how a desire demon bewitched a Templar hoping to "experience what it is to be mortal" during Broken Circle.



#102
vertigomez

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I think leaving Loghain behind in the Fade is incredibly thematic. It ties in beautifully with his redemption arc. In DAO he doesn't want to do the Dark Ritual, and if you choose to sacrifice yourself he objects - he says that after doing so much wrong he wants to do one last thing right, and why did you spare him if throwing him at the Archdemon wasn't your plan all along? He's genuinely baffled.

The uncertainty in his voice when he asks, "Isn't that why I'm here?" just kills me. (Literally. Because death.)

Nope, Loghain, you have to live because the universe has plans for you. :wizard:
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#103
Vanilka

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Wait, aren't they doing the import? Or are you just asking how it would be handled for those who don't import?

 

As for how custom Hawkes would be handled, I can't see why what they did in Inquisition (namely a customization screen that appears the second before you see Hawke) isn't an option.

 

I also don't think that a person stuck in the Fade would be a conduit to the mortal realm. If it was, we might have managed to sneak around Nightmare instead of needing to use that rift.

 

As for the demon exiting its own domain... yeah, I don't know why the Nightmare would want to do that either. But somehow demons do all seem to want to leave the Fade, or at least experience what it is to be outside of it. The demons that possess mages all seem to do so as a ticket to the mortal realm, the Baroness seemed entirely okay with accidentally forcing herself out of the Fade, and there's probably other examples. Come to think of it that desire to know what the other side is might even be a reason for Nightmare wanting to possess a mortal even though there's no benefit to doing so. Sort of like how a desire demon bewitched a Templar hoping to "experience what it is to be mortal."

 

I do use the Keep. I'm too obsessive over my own worldstate not to. I meant import as it was between DAO and DAII, for example. I could imagine they could somehow copy the sliders used in DAI for boss Hawke in DA4. But since the Keep import doesn't work that way, we'd either have to remake Hawke, which would probably be a bit awkward if they were going to be a surprise enemy, or they'd have to go with something universal. Well, that's what I think anyway. I guess they could always Fade-mutate them beyond recognition and be done with it. They'd still have to account for the character's gender and class, I imagine.

 

As for getting out of the Fade, I think that whoever would want to do that would need either a rift or a working eluvian. Well, or they might have to be summoned. We've encountered so many unique circumstances where we meet demons both in physical forms and in possession of living beings that it's getting confusing.

 

In the Stone Prisoner DLC, there's a desire demon that possessed a cat and planned to posses a little girl next so that she could experience the world and feed, if I remember correctly. (But she didn't enter the physical realm willingly, on the other hand.) So I guess it's never completely off the table, either. It wouldn't be the first powerful demon we've met in physical realm. Like Gaxkang. And, yeah, then there's also the Baroness.



#104
DreamerM

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Nope, Loghain, you have to live because the universe has plans for you. :wizard:

 

That's kind of my attitude towards Loghain, and how I justify throwing Hawke at the Nightmare instead. Poor Loghain has been trying to die nobly for ten plus years now, but too bad, a guy with his talents is going to be indispensable rebuilding the Wardens.

Besides, of the two of them, Hawke is way more likely to find the one-in-a-bazillion chance to survive.


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#105
vertigomez

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That's kind of my attitude towards Loghain, and how I justify throwing Hawke at the Nightmare instead. Poor Loghain has been trying to die nobly for ten plus years now, but too bad, a guy with his talents is going to be indispensable rebuilding the Wardens.

Besides, of the two of them, Hawke is way more likely to find the one-in-a-bazillion chance to survive.


I agree, though I did the opposite.

I'm trying to imagine Loghain's grumpy face when he kills the Nightmare and is stuck wandering the Fade until plot happens. Something like this, I'd wager: >:[[[
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#106
German Soldier

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I think leaving Loghain behind in the Fade is incredibly thematic. It ties in beautifully with his redemption arc. In DAO he doesn't want to do the Dark Ritual, and if you choose to sacrifice yourself he objects - he says that after doing so much wrong he wants to do one last thing right, and why did you spare him if throwing him at the Archdemon wasn't your plan all along? He's genuinely baffled.

 

Because the writers in DAO thought that it was a good idea to force the narrative to maintain the HoF in the ignorance of the US for the DR nosense until the end... despite it made no sense at all given that Duncan should have logically passed this knowledge to Alistair when he was made a GW...
 
Anyway i think that Loghain redeption arch is much more dramatic and interesting in DAO with the Archdemon,the nightmare demon sacrifice is lame compared to that one.

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#107
Lunatica

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The Warden is supposed to ignore the US until Riordan reveal it but in conversation with Loghain and Alistair post redemption ending it can be inferred from one of the dialogue options that they spared him to throw him at the Archdemon.....meaning that the warden knew everything....... :mellow:

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#108
Aren

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I had Alistair as the Warden contact, and I had romanced him in Origins. If asked, Alistair says that the HoF is looking for the cure to save all Wardens, not just the two of them. The HoF is on this quest regardless of romances or who is still alive. I was just saying that a more senior Warden having a shorter lifespan because of the taint isn't necessarily true because we don't know what will happen in the future. The possibility of a cure exists.

You mean throw away a certainty for a possibility?
The cure can be found or not which means is just an uncertainty while Hawke has the certainty to not have this issue.


#109
Dabrikishaw

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I just leave Hawke because I dislike them.



#110
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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The Warden is supposed to ignore the US until Riordan reveal it but in conversation with Loghain and Alistair post redemption ending it can be inferred from one of the dialogue options that they spared him to throw him at the Archdemon.....meaning that the warden knew everything....... :mellow:

 

What exactly does the Warden say? Is it implied the Warden specifically knew that a Warden had to die from the start? Or is it just stated that Loghain was spared to use as an expendable soldier, and that he's perfect for the US? Because having a Warden whose life you do not care about at all (and possibly one you want dead) is useful due to the Archdemon's immortality, but not only due to the Archdemon's immortality. There's always dangerous jobs in war, and the Warden probably cares at least a little about most of his party. Giving Loghain a dangerous or even fatal job means someone the Warden would cry over doesn't have to do that job.



#111
Spirit Vanguard

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You mean throw away a certainty for a possibility?
The cure can be found or not which means is just an uncertainty while Hawke has the certainty to not have this issue.

 

 

No. That isn't what I meant. It started as just a passing note:

 

I always leave the Warden.... why would you kill someone healthy in favour of someone who is gonna die shortly after anyway?

 

Stroud,Alistair and Loghain are not even young wardens so sacrifice them over Hawke is a must for me..

They have at best another 10 years to live Hawke have much more...in my canon i have Stroud  because Loghain and Alistair are dead

 

Me: Considering the Hero of Ferelden is searching for a way to "cure" Grey Wardens, this could potentially be untrue. Not sure what's going on if the HoF is dead, though.

 
^ I really didn't mean anything else other than what I said.


#112
Lunatica

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What exactly does the Warden say? Is it implied the Warden specifically knew that a Warden had to die from the start? Or is it just stated that Loghain was spared to use as an expendable soldier, and that he's perfect for the US? Because having a Warden whose life you do not care about at all (and possibly one you want dead) is useful due to the Archdemon's immortality, but not only due to the Archdemon's immortality. There's always dangerous jobs in war, and the Warden probably cares at least a little about most of his party. Giving Loghain a dangerous or even fatal job means someone the Warden would cry over doesn't have to do that job.

It's seem that sparing Loghain was not done solely to gain  an expandable soldier for a dangerous task  the narrative seem to imply that the warden spared Loghain for their own plans to kill the archdemon  by using him  before Riordan revealed it's immortality.
 
You have a dialogue with Loghain which at some point goes like this
 
Loghain: "The joining was my death sentence anyway. It's hardly my fault that it did not produced the desired result,Warden.
Warden: "This is your death sentence remember that"
 
You have another dialogue with Riordan later that allow the PC to somehow predict the sacrifice before he reveal it.


#113
Andromelek

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I just leave Hawke because I dislike them.


I've been always curious of how someone can hate directly a PC given that they can have a variety of personalities, isn't that something related to the game itself?

#114
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Loghain: "The joining was my death sentence anyway. It's hardly my fault that it did not produced the desired result,Warden.
Warden: "This is your death sentence remember that"

 

I never interpreted that as referring to the US. I thought it referred to the Joining being either immediately lethal or lethal at most thirty years down the road.

 

 

 

You have another dialogue with Riordan later that allow the PC to somehow predict the sacrifice before he reveal it.

 

You mean the one right before he reveals it? The one where Riordan has already revealed why having at least one Warden is necessary and is about two or three lines away from revealing that the Warden in question dies? The one where your options are to either ask "what happens to the Warden?" or joke that letting an Archdemon's soul die in your body "doesn't sound healthy?" At that point the Warden guessing what happens isn't that remarkable, since the PC knows most of the truth and has reason to believe that Riordan is delivering bad news from his bearing. (Especially if the Warden asked about how you kill an Archdemon during the scene with Eamon and Teagan and Riordan was crestfallen at having to deliver the news himself.)

 

Or were you thinking of something else?



#115
Lunatica

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You mean the one right before he reveals it? The one where Riordan has already revealed why having at least one Warden is necessary and is about two or three lines away from revealing that the Warden in question dies? The one where your options are to either ask "what happens to the Warden?" or joke that letting an Archdemon's soul die in your body "doesn't sound healthy?" At that point the Warden guessing what happens isn't that remarkable, since the PC knows most of the truth and has reason to believe that Riordan is delivering bad news from his bearing. (Especially if the Warden asked about how you kill an Archdemon during the scene with Eamon and Teagan and Riordan was crestfallen at having to deliver the news himself.)

 

Or were you thinking of something else?

The dialogue in which the warden says that they know that only GW can kill archdemons due to the taint within them before Riordan made the explanation, to which he reply: "it is exactly what it involve"



#116
vertigomez

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I posted this before, but here's Hard In Hightown: Chapter ??? because it seems relevant. This codex entry changes depending on who you leave behind in the Fade.

Spoiler

Curious how female and male Hawke get different entries. And I'm glad that Stroud's mustache is finally getting the respect it deserves.
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#117
FloraTheElf

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I've noticed that many who seem to leave Alistair behind rather than Hawke do so due to the LI that Hawke leaves behind. I don't dislike my Hawke, but I always consider her canon LI to be Anders and since that didn't turn out so well then she has less reason to not go. I suppose its her own way to ease the guilt for helping him in the first place.

#118
Spirit Vanguard

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I've noticed that many who seem to leave Alistair behind rather than Hawke do so due to the LI that Hawke leaves behind. I don't dislike my Hawke, but I always consider her canon LI to be Anders and since that didn't turn out so well then she has less reason to not go. I suppose its her own way to ease the guilt for helping him in the first place.

 

Interesting. My canon Hawke is also with an Anders romance, but in my head their relationship is/has been the most challenged and yet no matter what they've stayed together -- and with Anders that couldn't have been easy, for many reasons. They love each other and nothing has changed that. None of this makes it easier to save Alistair.

 

I feel similarly for Fenris. Here he's finally managed to have something positive in his life and then---Nope! Gone...



#119
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Curious how female and male Hawke get different entries.

It could hardly be word for word the same.



#120
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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The dialogue in which the warden says that they know that only GW can kill archdemons due to the taint within them before Riordan made the explanation, to which he reply: "it is exactly what it involve"

Oh. About a half minute ahead of the "doesn't sound too healthy" choice? That specifically states that the Warden assumes it has something to do with the Taint. That's not the same as knowing that it has something to do with the Taint (much less knowing the other details) and the Warden has enough pieces of the puzzle that guessing that the Taint is involved isn't remarkable. That option doesn't seem to imply being psychic. It just seems to mean your Warden is quick on the uptake.



#121
vertigomez

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It could hardly be word for word the same.


No, but it was signficiantly different. It's just interesting, is all.
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#122
phoray

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Well, people does talk of how the dude that was left behind is dead, but then death in Thedas is more or less like this , with more uncles Ben and Wayne parents but still...

 

i don't know who Green Arrow is, but thanks for the video. I had a good laugh.

 

I've now saved my first PT Hawke twice, and One Alistair.  The Hawke I sacrificed did not want to die and Hawke's line is that a Warden must rebuild the order.

 

Alistair has grown, become more mature, yet still retains his idealism 10 years later. Loghain has never been idealistic- he's a 100% ends justifies the means kind of guy. in the world states where he's alive, He probably only disagreed with Clarel because her plan was illogical. And Stroud didn't come off as Idealistic either; he was a run of the mill average Warden with just a bit more backbone when it came to blood magic and killing wardens combinations. If anyone is to rebuild the Wardens, it's going to be someone who believes the Order can be more than it currently is; and that's Alistair. 

 

Now that I've said that: Why is Alistair an underling Warden in Orlais? Bejeebus. They should be using him "Miss Congeniality 2" style and be a face for the Wardens, gathering up recruits in the scoopfuls.



#123
Cyberpunk

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Stroud never makes it past the fade haha


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#124
Spirit Vanguard

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I posted this before, but here's Hard In Hightown: Chapter ??? because it seems relevant. This codex entry changes depending on who you leave behind in the Fade.

Spoiler

Curious how female and male Hawke get different entries. And I'm glad that Stroud's mustache is finally getting the respect it deserves.

 

I didn’t want to read this at first because I thought “I’ll wait until I see it in game myself…” And then I realized I don’t know when that will actually happen.

 

Having only played through this once with a female Hawke left in the Fade, I’ll admit I didn’t see the connection in the codex. I probably wouldn’t have until I saw Stroud’s. Because obvious mustache is obvious. Not sure why there’s such a drastic difference between the Hawkes, either. My canon female Hawke feels more aligned with the male Hawke entry. :D



#125
DDJ

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Because the writers in DAO thought that it was a good idea to force the narrative to maintain the HoF in the ignorance of the US for the DR nosense until the end... despite it made no sense at all given that Duncan should have logically passed this knowledge to Alistair when he was made a GW...
 
Anyway i think that Loghain redeption arch is much more dramatic and interesting in DAO with the Archdemon,the nightmare demon sacrifice is lame compared to that one.

 

 

I would agree that it makes no sense that Duncan would not have passed this along.  My own view of Alastair is that he is a "go along to get along" individual.  He does not want to lead, does not want to be king and so leaves the HoF to do all the heavy lifting.  The very first time I ask him about the ritual he says try not to think about it.  Fair enough.  Then the first time at camp I ask if there are any other surprises I should know about.  Nope.  Not a single word about the you too can be a ghoul.  The point is that Alastair appears to deflect questions and only approves of you (if you tell him you did not want to be a Warden) if you give the prescribed positive response.  I always play as a conscript elf, and the fact that Duncan is human and humans treat elves like slaves and the fact that Alastair de facto gets me to do the real work (game armor of course) and his deceptiveness have always aggravated me.  Once he gets what he wants, all is well.  When he does not he becomes angry and runs off to be a drunk.  He is not from my perspective a strong character.