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Warden Alistair. That was a bad idea.


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#126
phoray

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I would agree that it makes no sense that Duncan would not have passed this along.  My own view of Alastair is that he is a "go along to get along" individual.  He does not want to lead, does not want to be king and so leaves the HoF to do all the heavy lifting.  The very first time I ask him about the ritual he says try not to think about it.  Fair enough.  Then the first time at camp I ask if there are any other surprises I should know about.  Nope.  Not a single word about the you too can be a ghoul.  The point is that Alastair appears to deflect questions and only approves of you (if you tell him you did not want to be a Warden) if you give the prescribed positive response.  I always play as a conscript elf, and the fact that Duncan is human and humans treat elves like slaves and the fact that Alastair de facto gets me to do the real work (game armor of course) and his deceptiveness have always aggravated me.  Once he gets what he wants, all is well.  When he does not he becomes angry and runs off to be a drunk.  He is not from my perspective a strong character.  

 

 

And as a female city elf? I joined the Wardens because the only other option for the actions I'd just performed (murdering a young noble ****** and his friends who'd just raped my best friend Shiani with intentions to do so to me) was to be hanged to death as an "example" of a bad elf in front of a group of humans who would never know the real story. my elf accepted responsibility for her actions so the Alienage would not suffer; and Duncan stepped in and saved her from that fate. Extending her life from days to years and giving her a chance to be more than just someone's elven wife. She was obviously a leader who can handle herself, and Alistair deferring to her strong leadership abilities just made sense; was actually smart on his part, I would have butt heads with him otherwise. Didn't mean I didn't take his input into account, he'd been a Warden longer than her anyway. I also found his romantic interest very real, fell for him hard. Never hardened him, and listened to him when he was being honest about not wanting to be King. Not everyone is meant to be king or a leader and people shouldn't accept the job just because they should. Alistair's father Maric was miserable for shoving himself into it, for example.

 

When my city elf unarmed Loghain, and the idea of an execution was presented, my elf felt the first bit of doubt upon her the whole game; my elf looked at Alistair in question and the game had him actually nod in encouragement. But serious respectful like, not creepy gleefully. And Loghain had his first lucid moment where I could see a glimmer of who he used to be, said goodbye to his daughter, and I lopped off his head. I didn't get the whole Riordan speech about Loghain becoming a Warden. I didn't get to hear Alistair argue about it. I didn't NOT kill Loghain when the moment came. I didn't make a softened Alistair, who makes it very clear he does NOT WANT TO BE KING, into one anyway. so he never broke up with me for his new responsibilities.  Origins is an amazing game, and my choices led me to not seeing a single bad side of Alistair. So, I hear/read about these other Alistair personalities and the thing is, although that does paint a bad side to him, he never did any of those things to me. He will forever be the first video game character I fell in love with and I am not very interested in the choices that would make me see those other sides.

 

If that was my experience, I'm sure it was many others' experience, and therefore I totally get why they would have a problem sacrificing Alistair in the fade.


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#127
Domakir

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Am I the only one who think it is better to leave Alistair/Loghain/Stroud in the fade?


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#128
DDJ

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Am I the only one who think it is better to leave Alistair/Loghain/Stroud in the fade?

Not at all.  Even if I totally loved the Wardens, which I do not, the Warden is only one person.  The Wardens can be rebuilt, hopefully with a more moral center.  I never doubted and always leave the Warden.  After all the Wardens were the catalyst that started the whole mess.


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#129
Andromelek

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Am I the only one who think it is better to leave Alistair/Loghain/Stroud in the fade?


No, you're not.
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#130
Domakir

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Not at all.  Even if I totally loved the Wardens, which I do not, the Warden is only one person.  The Wardens can be rebuilt, hopefully with a more moral center.  I never doubted and always leave the Warden.  After all the Wardens were the catalyst that started the whole mess.

I actually like Alistair but Hawke is going to have a longer life so I don't see the point in saving him if he has 10 years left.


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#131
phoray

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I actually like Alistair but Hawke is going to have a longer life so I don't see the point in saving him if he has 10 years left.

 

 

I played a "Sad with Anders" Hawke that was seeking atonement when I leave Hawke in the fade to save Alistair. If it's Stroud, I leave him behind and save my "Happy with Anders/Fenris" Hawke. I never get Loghain, because I saw value in his execution in Origins that apparently other people don't see. (that lucid moment he has before execution is valuable to me narratively, not that I value his death specifically.) So Loghain is never an option for me in my World states.



#132
DDJ

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And as a female city elf? I joined the Wardens because the only other option for the actions I'd just performed (murdering a young noble ****** and his friends who'd just raped my best friend Shiani with intentions to do so to me) was to be hanged to death as an "example" of a bad elf in front of a group of humans who would never know the real story. my elf accepted responsibility for her actions so the Alienage would not suffer; and Duncan stepped in and saved her from that fate. Extending her life from days to years and giving her a chance to be more than just someone's elven wife. She was obviously a leader who can handle herself, and Alistair deferring to her strong leadership abilities just made sense; was actually smart on his part, I would have butt heads with him otherwise. Didn't mean I didn't take his input into account, he'd been a Warden longer than her anyway. I also found his romantic interest very real, fell for him hard. Never hardened him, and listened to him when he was being honest about not wanting to be King. Not everyone is meant to be king or a leader and people shouldn't accept the job just because they should. Alistair's father Maric was miserable for shoving himself into it, for example.

 

When my city elf unarmed Loghain, and the idea of an execution was presented, my elf felt the first bit of doubt upon her the whole game; my elf looked at Alistair in question and the game had him actually nod in encouragement. But serious respectful like, not creepy gleefully. And Loghain had his first lucid moment where I could see a glimmer of who he used to be, said goodbye to his daughter, and I lopped off his head. I didn't get the whole Riordan speech about Loghain becoming a Warden. I didn't get to hear Alistair argue about it. I didn't NOT kill Loghain when the moment came. I didn't make a softened Alistair, who makes it very clear he does NOT WANT TO BE KING, into one anyway. so he never broke up with me for his new responsibilities.  Origins is an amazing game, and my choices led me to not seeing a single bad side of Alistair. So, I hear/read about these other Alistair personalities and the thing is, although that does paint a bad side to him, he never did any of those things to me. He will forever be the first video game character I fell in love with and I am not very interested in the choices that would make me see those other sides.

 

If that was my experience, I'm sure it was many others' experience, and therefore I totally get why they would have a problem sacrificing Alistair in the fade.

 

And that is the beauty of these games.  I play as an elf who does not like humans due to their nasty treatment.  I flat out tell Valendrian, who introduces Duncan as a Warden "Why should I care?"  In the talk with Duncan he asks if I have my mother's skills.  I tell him no.  

 

The part I don't understand is why wanting a normal life with a spouse and children inherently worse than being a dealer in death with the end reward being ghouldom or broodmother hood.  I suppose the elf would then have the children he / she wants, but I would rather not.  So, setting plot armor aside for the moment, how is being a fighter and saving the very bastards who mistreat your people reasonable.  They are the ones who sell the elves into slavery.  They are the ones who forced the elves into slums.  So I am supposed to like them why?



#133
Domakir

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I played a "Sad with Anders" Hawke that was seeking atonement when I leave Hawke in the fade to save Alistair. If it's Stroud, I leave him behind and save my "Happy with Anders/Fenris" Hawke. I never get Loghain, because I saw value in his execution in Origins that apparently other people don't see. (that lucid moment he has before execution is valuable to me narratively, not that I value his death specifically.) So Loghain is never an option for me in my World states.

I let Loghain kill the archdemon since he wanted redemption and I think that dying for his country is the best ending for him. I don't care about Stroud so that was an easy one. And I already said what I think about Alistair.


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#134
phoray

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And that is the beauty of these games.  I play as an elf who does not like humans due to their nasty treatment.  I flat out tell Valendrian, who introduces Duncan as a Warden "Why should I care?"  In the talk with Duncan he asks if I have my mother's skills.  I tell him no.  

 

The part I don't understand is why wanting a normal life with a spouse and children inherently worse than being a dealer in death with the end reward being ghouldom or broodmother hood.  I suppose the elf would then have the children he / she wants, but I would rather not.  So, setting plot armor aside for the moment, how is being a fighter and saving the very bastards who mistreat your people reasonable.  They are the ones who sell the elves into slavery.  They are the ones who forced the elves into slums.  So I am supposed to like them why?

 

When I first played Dragon Origins it was my first DA game ever; I saw the nobles raping us city elf women as more of a what "Nobles do with their Power", and didn't really see it as especially racial. I just feel like that's the way it was presented. If there had been a ghetto of humans, the nobles still would have visited and tried to use their "Noble Power" to bad ends. So, my city elf did not especially "hate humans" as "hate bad people who take advantage of others." It didn't get personal until Loghain tried to sell my city elf's family and friends into slavery; so ya, there was some anger when she executed him but not because he was human. He was just another power hungry jerk who rationalized all his bad actions.

 

I just recently started the Dalish elf origin. A male elf archer, he is perfectly happy where he is with no urge to be a hero whatsoever So, he's a bit curious about Duncan because he's never seen his keeper be friendly with a human before, but he's certainly not jumping on the "Warden's are so cool" wagon. He's very cautious about humans, but I've decided he has no particular hate for them. However, after his unrequited love interest Tamlen dies, and he finds out he's been tainted, and it's either death now or death later as a Warden? He's kinda suicidal and not caring anymore so, sure, why not listen to the Keeper and go be a Warden. The world sucks now anyway. After his rest, starting in Ostagar, he's going to be resentful, angry, distrustful of all dark magical mystery things. So, this elf origin will be closer/ Will probably hate being a Warden and want his normal life back the entire time.

 

Specifically, your "why save the humans" argument; the Arch Demon, and the Breach too, are two MAJOR world events that will effect the elves. So, I don't see my Dalish elf saving the world for humans, I see him saving the world for his Clan, what friends he chooses to make among his companions, and the life he's created with his LI, Zevran. But definitely not for humans.


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#135
DDJ

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When I first played Dragon Origins it was my first DA game ever; I saw the nobles raping us city elf women as more of a what "Nobles do with their Power", and didn't really see it as especially racial. I just feel like that's the way it was presented. If there had been a ghetto of humans, the nobles still would have visited and tried to use their "Noble Power" to bad ends. So, my city elf did not especially "hate humans" as "hate bad people who take advantage of others." It didn't get personal until Loghain tried to sell my city elf's family and friends into slavery; so ya, there was some anger when she executed him but not because he was human. He was just another power hungry jerk who rationalized all his bad actions.

 

I just recently started the Dalish elf origin. A male elf archer, he is perfectly happy where he is with no urge to be a hero whatsoever So, he's a bit curious about Duncan because he's never seen his keeper be friendly with a human before, but he's certainly not jumping on the "Warden's are so cool" wagon. He's very cautious about humans, but I've decided he has no particular hate for them. However, after his unrequited love interest Tamlen dies, and he finds out he's been tainted, and it's either death now or death later as a Warden? He's kinda suicidal and not caring anymore so, sure, why not listen to the Keeper and go be a Warden. The world sucks now anyway. After his rest, starting in Ostagar, he's going to be resentful, angry, distrustful of all dark magical mystery things. So, this elf origin will be closer/ Will probably hate being a Warden and want his normal life back the entire time.

 

Specifically, your "why save the humans" argument; the Arch Demon, and the Breach too, are two MAJOR world events that will effect the elves. So, I don't see my Dalish elf saving the world for humans, I see him saving the world for his Clan, what friends he chooses to make among his companions, and the life he's created with his LI, Zevran. But definitely not for humans.

 

That goes to the beauty of these games.  I recall reading - who knows where - that Bioware wanted us to play as close to the character as we could muster.  Now, DAO is very different than DAI.  In DAO I do not trust humans period.  I don't really know if there is a Blight or not, but I do know that Duncan, a human, is planning on stealing me from the marriage bed.  He wants to exert his will over me, and once that noble has been killed he gets his chance.  There is no we need to talk about this.  So, just why should I believe him.

 

DAI is different.  From the beginning I know I can seal rifts, and someone has to.  I am not doing it for humans.  That I am doing for the clan and all elves.  I still don't trust the humans, and the final DLC serves to confirm that I was right.  The first inquisitor was also Dalish and he was left to rot by Orlais.  Frankly nothing I have seen makes me want to trust humans much, although there are some exceptions.  The bulk of the evidence indicates that the Wardens have become corrupt, but they are protected by plot armor.  That, frankly, is why I always put Alastair on the throne.  His poor leadership ten years after the Blight, and he really does nothing of consequence, appears a fitting punishment.  Plus when he turns into a ghoul publicly, the Wardens will be questioned.  That is my dark world view coming out.  


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#136
Lunatica

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Am I the only one who think it is better to leave Alistair/Loghain/Stroud in the fade?

I always save Hawke so i can rub on Flemeth's face that her foreshadowing was wrong Lol!


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#137
GoldenGail3

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I always save Hawke so i can rub on Flemeth's face that her foreshadowing was wrong Lol!


I killed a lot of my Hawkes because of that foreshadowing; although my main and precious canon Hawke was saved from it.

#138
Aren

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I let Loghain kill the archdemon since he wanted redemption and I think that dying for his country is the best ending for him. I don't care about Stroud so that was an easy one. And I already said what I think about Alistair.

Reduce Loghain to a little cameo in DAI isn't  very interesting is better if his story end in DAO.

I did not had great issues with Alistair in DAO it was simply he who decided to abandon me and for what i remeber he wasn't even the only one characters that suddendly out of the blue abandoned the warden while i didn't anything wrong to them.



#139
Squinterific

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I loved having Loghain stay in the Fade. The little speech Varric gives about him afterwards was touching. I really felt like he redeemed himself if that's how Varric chose to remember him. BW's best villain yet.

 

 

PS: There's also no guarantee he's actually dead.



#140
phoray

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That goes to the beauty of these games.  I recall reading - who knows where - that Bioware wanted us to play as close to the character as we could muster.  Now, DAO is very different than DAI.  In DAO I do not trust humans period.  I don't really know if there is a Blight or not, but I do know that Duncan, a human, is planning on stealing me from the marriage bed.  He wants to exert his will over me, and once that noble has been killed he gets his chance.  There is no we need to talk about this.  So, just why should I believe him.

 

DAI is different.  From the beginning I know I can seal rifts, and someone has to.  I am not doing it for humans.  That I am doing for the clan and all elves.  I still don't trust the humans, and the final DLC serves to confirm that I was right.  The first inquisitor was also Dalish and he was left to rot by Orlais.  Frankly nothing I have seen makes me want to trust humans much, although there are some exceptions.  The bulk of the evidence indicates that the Wardens have become corrupt, but they are protected by plot armor.  That, frankly, is why I always put Alastair on the throne.  His poor leadership ten years after the Blight, and he really does nothing of consequence, appears a fitting punishment.  Plus when he turns into a ghoul publicly, the Wardens will be questioned.  That is my dark world view coming out.  

 

Oh yeah, at the beginning we don't know a thing about wehther the Blight is real. But doesn't his outlook change a bit post Ostagar? Blight or no, there seems to be an AWFUL FRIGGIN LOT of Darkspawn above ground. Dalish clan is just north east of all this mess in the Koncari Wilds. 

 

Can you explain Duncan trying to steal you from the marriage bed? I remember he was "looking" for recruits, but he never seemed interested in the soon to be newly wed city elf. Does he say something different if you're aggressive to him that made your elf think this? He was totally after my Cousland, but I was the youngest with training in arms. I remember dear old Dad strongly objected. But I don't recall anything like that with my City elf.



#141
DDJ

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Oh yeah, at the beginning we don't know a thing about wehther the Blight is real. But doesn't his outlook change a bit post Ostagar? Blight or no, there seems to be an AWFUL FRIGGIN LOT of Darkspawn above ground. Dalish clan is just north east of all this mess in the Koncari Wilds. 

 

Can you explain Duncan trying to steal you from the marriage bed? I remember he was "looking" for recruits, but he never seemed interested in the soon to be newly wed city elf. Does he say something different if you're aggressive to him that made your elf think this? He was totally after my Cousland, but I was the youngest with training in arms. I remember dear old Dad strongly objected. But I don't recall anything like that with my City elf.

 

Certainly.  When you speak to him first you go through the Valendrian bit.  Then speak to him again about your mother.  He tells you that he wanted her in the Wardens and says something like it seems she passed on her skills to you.  Am I right?  I always say I have no clue what he is talking about.  An armed city elf would be a troublemaker as the father says.  Then he says something like worry not, I have already heard a lot about you.  When you add in the bit where he says, knowing that the marriage will soon take place, it is obvious to me that he wants the elf married or not.  Of course there is obviously no way to avoid joining - there would be either no game or a vastly different one.  So forgetting plot armor for the moment, Duncan has every intention of forcing you into the Wardens.  The only other origin I play routinely is the human noble with its if you want to get out of here alive you will join the Wardens.  I still say no and he conscripts me anyway.  Heck, he even says in the prologue that I would be an excellent candidate for which I say no.  Perhaps it is my background;.  I know war, and I have no desire to devote myself to it even in a game.



#142
phoray

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Certainly.  When you speak to him first you go through the Valendrian bit.  Then speak to him again about your mother.  He tells you that he wanted her in the Wardens and says something like it seems she passed on her skills to you.  Am I right?  I always say I have no clue what he is talking about.  An armed city elf would be a troublemaker as the father says.  Then he says something like worry not, I have already heard a lot about you.  When you add in the bit where he says, knowing that the marriage will soon take place, it is obvious to me that he wants the elf married or not.  Of course there is obviously no way to avoid joining - there would be either no game or a vastly different one.  So forgetting plot armor for the moment, Duncan has every intention of forcing you into the Wardens.  The only other origin I play routinely is the human noble with its if you want to get out of here alive you will join the Wardens.  I still say no and he conscripts me anyway.  Heck, he even says in the prologue that I would be an excellent candidate for which I say no.  Perhaps it is my background;.  I know war, and I have no desire to devote myself to it even in a game.

 

 

See, now this makes me want to try out the City elf Origin again, because either I didn't go back to have that discussion or I just didn't take the question as relevant/interesting. I picked up DA Origins with no input from anyone or Bioware. It was just sitting on my husband's shelf, I was sick, I started playing. So, zero info.  Duncan was some dude, a "Warden" talking to my village elder. Boring. Now, let's get to that wedding thing and see where this game is going. *walks away from the true plot.*

 

Not knowing his importance at all, he came out of no where to save my life when the soldiers showed up. My perspective. I'm not saying yours is wrong, though! It's just funny!



#143
DDJ

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See, now this makes me want to try out the City elf Origin again, because either I didn't go back to have that discussion or I just didn't take the question as relevant/interesting. I picked up DA Origins with no input from anyone or Bioware. It was just sitting on my husband's shelf, I was sick, I started playing. So, zero info.  Duncan was some dude, a "Warden" talking to my village elder. Boring. Now, let's get to that wedding thing and see where this game is going. *walks away from the true plot.*

 

Not knowing his importance at all, he came out of no where to save my life when the soldiers showed up. My perspective. I'm not saying yours is wrong, though! It's just funny!

 

I think, with due respect to everyone's views, that our experiences and perceptions shape our view of the game.  I have never cared much for the Wardens, nor for their brutality when it is not called for.  Some say but they are needed to fight the darkspawn, but in DAO there are only three Wardens in the end battle.  Everyone is fighting.  In DA2 Hawke is one of those who fought them and goes to the Deep Roads with no Wardens.  I never take Hawke's siblings.  In DAI Fiona, ex Warden, says that you can't trust them.  I really don't.



#144
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Some say but they are needed to fight the darkspawn, but in DAO there are only three Wardens in the end battle.  Everyone is fighting.

Yeah, but do the allies actually end the Blight? While I assert that the Wardens are helpful with darkspawn-related tasks that aren't killing the Archdemon (at least when they have their heads screwed on straight, which is maybe half the time,) that's the bit they are literally necessary for. And it is a literally necessary bit.

 

 

In DA2 Hawke is one of those who fought them and goes to the Deep Roads with no Wardens.  I never take Hawke's siblings.

Because you know that if you do, that sibling needs to become a Warden or they will die. That speaks to another use for Wardens, doesn't it? Saving Tainted people. And even if your Hawke doesn't see that use during the Deep Roads, it's made clear that Hawke knows about it when Wesley gets sick.

 

In DAI Fiona, ex Warden, says that you can't trust them.  I really don't.

I suppose I do have to concede trusting them is a bit much, given some of the things they get up to. But they're still needed. Or at least a very similar group is.



#145
Chiramu

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Leave Hawke. Nobody stacks up against the great Ser Alistair!

 

Hawke "dies" anyway. Randomly going to that Grey Warden place to never be seen again. I think the canon will be for Hawke to die and the Warden to live.



#146
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Hawke "dies" anyway. Randomly going to that Grey Warden place to never be seen again. I think the canon will be for Hawke to die and the Warden to live.

Doesn't the epilogue for Trespasser state that Hawke reunites with Varric if Hawke doesn't go into the Fade? And I'm not sure where you get that the Warden contact can survive in there and Hawke can't.


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#147
BraveVesperia

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I posted this before, but here's Hard In Hightown: Chapter ??? because it seems relevant. This codex entry changes depending on who you leave behind in the Fade.

Aww, is the mabari in Loghain's entry referencing the one from his banter with Dog in DAO? That's rather sweet, if so.



#148
vertigomez

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Aww, is the mabari in Loghain's entry referencing the one from his banter with Dog in DAO? That's rather sweet, if so.


I think so! Made me tear up a bit.

#149
Donquijote and 59 others

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I leave Hawke when I also have Alistair as well, because of what you said, but more specifically because of what Flemeth told Hawke in DA2 about diving into the abyss and learning to fly :) So in my mind, until proven otherwise Hawke is still kicking.

Who is left in the fade is dead they don't possess the anchor to escape and they are in the domain of one of the most powerful demon of the world which probably has killed them in few seconds and yes they were right under the nightmare demon which mean 99% of death chances.



#150
Melyanna

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Who is left in the fade is dead they don't possess the anchor to escape and they are in the domain of one of the most powerful demon of the world which probably has killed them in few seconds and yes they were right under the nightmare demon which mean 99% of death chances.

 

I believe the Hollywood Movies rule applies in this case: "if you can't see a dead body (possibly detached from its head), they are still alive." ;)


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