260 réponses à ce sujet

[DDJ]

I believe the Hollywood Movies rule applies in this case: "if you can't see a dead body (possibly detached from its head), they are still alive."

 

I totally agree with this.  The only one of the original companions in DAO I am positive is dead is Wynne who died in one of the books.  And even if you do see a decapitated head consider the Urn of Sacred Ashes where the Warden is evil and kills Leliana.  Then, voila, there she is again in DA2 and DAI with some story about how she was saved by a miracle.  Right now, at least I think so, BioWare is stumped.  We now have three individual heroic figures of whom Hawke is the easiest to write about and around.  HoF has so many variables that they do not know how to reincorporate him / her even as a cameo.  Hence only letters in DAI.  Then you have the Inquisitor who loses an arm.  There role as a warrior of any kind is shot, and likely as an archer as well.  They may be a thinker, but that is not a playable fighter.  So in DA4 - which needs to be worked on by them soon - there will be a new heroic figure.  They have muddied the waters for themselves with Leliana, HoF and the Inquisitor.  I suspect that while we may be chasing Solas it will be unlikely to find any of these people even as cameos.  Same with Cassandra.  The others - who knows.  I suspect that one of the first things is that whoever was left in the fade will be rescued.  Cannot have these strings hanging you know.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I believe the Hollywood Movies rule applies in this case: "if you can't see a dead body (possibly detached from its head), they are still alive."

There's arguably room for them to still be alive, and the Bioware staff are going out of their way to not say they aren't, but I can't think of any way they'd live without the Nightmare demon suffering them to. When you think about why the Nightmare demon might do such a thing, you start to wonder if maybe you shouldn't hope they're dead.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I believe the Hollywood Movies rule applies in this case: "if you can't see a dead body (possibly detached from its head), they are still alive."

Bioware tend to create lousy Hollywood plot armors for characters which are writers pets

I totally expect them to find a way to save Hawke and AListair for fan service while letting Stroud and Loghain die solely based on popularity guesses.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

When you think about why the Nightmare demon might do such a thing, you start to wonder if maybe you shouldn't hope they're dead.

If they survive then it is because the nightmare allowed them to live for even worst plans so is better if they die.

[sniper_arrow]

Doesn't the epilogue for Trespasser state that Hawke reunites with Varric if Hawke doesn't go into the Fade? And I'm not sure where you get that the Warden contact can survive in there and Hawke can't.

 

Hawke helps Varric, based on the Trespasser epilogue.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Hawke helps Varric, based on the Trespasser epilogue.

That and the fade hard in high town codex kind of seem final and imply the character left in the fade is dead

[DDJ]

That and the fade hard in high town codex kind of seem final and imply the character left in the fade is dead

 

But of course if you do leave Hawke in the Fade he / she is a BioWare favorite.  Like as not they will find some way to bring them back.  I enjoy these games a great deal, but from what I have seen means basically nothing.  I am at the point where the only person I really believe has died of all the companions is Wynne who died in a book.  Doubtless we will learn all (kind of) in DA 4 which I am seriously looking forward to.

 

Does anyone think an Exalted March on BioWare could speed the game along?

[Aren]

That and the fade hard in high town codex kind of seem final and imply the character left in the fade is dead

Death?

Does it even exist in Dragon age where popularity can help you to avoid it?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Death?

Does it even exist in Dragon age where popularity can help you to avoid it?

Wynne's dead, the "Leiliana" who appears in the later material if you kill her seems to not actually be Leiliana, and we've seen no sign that Anders survives if you kill him in DA2 (though apparently the circumstances that should stop him appearing in that game don't.) Oh, and Alistair and Loghain stay dead if you kill them despite their fanclubs. And, elephant in the room, the Warden stays dead if they did the US. Yeah, I'd say death exists.

[Aren]

Wynne's dead, the "Leiliana" who appears in the later material if you kill her seems to not actually be Leiliana, and we've seen no sign that Anders survives if you kill him in DA2 (though apparently the circumstances that should stop him appearing in that game don't.) Oh, and Alistair and Loghain stay dead if you kill them despite their fanclubs. And, elephant in the room, the Warden stays dead if they did the US. Yeah, I'd say death exists.

Leliana....

Bioware just went all Sixth Sense on us with special guest writer, M. Night Shyamalan for Trespasser that explains it. She's brought back when she's most needed.

 

Anders survive and meet Justice no matter what you did in DAA

(even if you never recruited him  and killed Justice and forced the spirit to return in the fade)

 

Loghain doesn't have any plot armor since he is not that loved while i'm surprised that they didn't find a way to "spare" Alistair at least from the Landsmeet execution  because the soul annihilation is too much even for the writers to handwave for both these two who can be a sacrifice.

 

After the third day The warden is resurrected in DAA   and then they dissapear and they are considered to be dead again in the future by all the non believers.

[Pasquale1234]

I've not yet read the entire thread.

Overall, I think it was a very well-designed player choice to write in. We didn't actually witness the death of the chosen party, so there remains a possibility that we may see or hear of them again.

I also found myself wondering whether BioWare ever considered having the HoF stand in as the GW - it would need to have been one who did the DR and wasn't on the throne, but I'd imagine there are quite a few who would meet those qualifications. It would have been quite the scenario for players to choose which of their former protagonists to sacrifice. I suppose the HoF's presence there would have created some other complications with the other references to the HoF, particularly where the LIs are concerned.
 

I always try to make the choice based on what the Inquisitor I'm playing thinks is the best idea. So generally they think the Wardens can be reformed and brought into the Inquisition, they save the Warden, if they are appalled and done with the Wardens, they save Hawke. There are other factors too though like their relationships with characters, particularly Blackwall and Varric, and the input given by the companions present.

My canon had it as a choice between Loghain and Hawke, with Loghain living. It was hard to watch but an easy choice to make for that character.

That's a pretty good description of how I dealt with the quest. The Inquisitor has no personal connection with either Loghain or Hawke, so there's really no sentiment or emotional attachment involved. She sees the Grey Wardens as a valuable resource in need of the experienced leadership Loghain can provide - whereas Hawke at this point is pretty much Joan civilian w/ some combat skills, who happened to be around when a lot of the crap now threatening Thedas started.

The Inquisitor did try to offer some comfort to a grieving Varric, and considered asking Josie to send condolences to Isabela, but otherwise moved on. Decisions such as this - and some of the other judgements she's rendered - are what she signed up for when she accepted the role of Inquisitor.

[Pasquale1234]

Then you have the Inquisitor who loses an arm.  There role as a warrior of any kind is shot, and likely as an archer as well.

Since you mentioned it - the Inquisitor I'm currently playing is an S/S warrior. I'm thinking that even with her left hand gone, she could still wield a shield, though she might need to strap on some sort of prosthetic to hold onto it. Two-handed warriors could *probably* transition to S/S, and I would think mages would still be able to function, albeit with some different staff animations. Rogues would probably be seriously hampered, though I suppose I could imagine some sort of one-handed crossbow might be developed. Shrug.

It is an excellent point you raise.

[DDJ]

Since you mentioned it - the Inquisitor I'm currently playing is an S/S warrior. I'm thinking that even with her left hand gone, she could still wield a shield, though she might need to strap on some sort of prosthetic to hold onto it. Two-handed warriors could *probably* transition to S/S, and I would think mages would still be able to function, albeit with some different staff animations. Rogues would probably be seriously hampered, though I suppose I could imagine some sort of one-handed crossbow might be developed. Shrug.

It is an excellent point you raise.

 

Thank you.

[thats1evildude]

Characters who may have died in DAO and DA2 and did not come back:

Spoiler

All of the supporting Origin characters who died (ie. the Couslands, Tamlen, Trian, etc.)
Alistair
Duncan
Ser Jory and Daveth
Cailan
Dog
Zevran
Wynne
Shale
Loghain
Arl Howe
Ser Cauthrien
Connor
Isolde
Uldred
Zathrian and his clan
Witherfang/Swiftrunner
Bhelen/Harrowmont
Caridin/Branka
Jarvia
Avernus/Sophia Dryden (possessed)
Riordan
The Archdemon
Nathaniel Howe
Sigrun
The Architect (has not re-appeared, though he may return)

Utha
The Mother
Bethany/Carver
Leandra
Wesley
Merrill
Fenris
Meredith
Orsino
The Arishok
Quentin
Danarius
Castillion
Tarohne/Viveka
Kieran
Grace/Ser Thrask
Sister Petrice
Grand Cleric Elthina
Seamus Dumar
Viscount Dumar
Gascard Dupuis
Bartrand
Javaris Tintop
Ketojan
Merrill's clan, including Keeper Marethari
Janeka/Larius
Duke Prosper
And a bunch of other minor characters

Characters who might have died but came back because of a bug or because they died offscreen:

Spoiler

The Warden (if you chose to bring them back in Awakening)
Anders (can be refused entry to the Wardens in Awakening, though he remains dead in DAI if killed)
Justice (ditto)
Cullen (went mad in an epilogue screen that was later retconned)
Zevran (bug)
Oghren (you can "kill" Oghren, though you never see a finishing blow)
Morrigan (she was stabbed, though you never saw her die)

Characters who definitely returned from the dead:

Spoiler

Flemeth
Corypheus
Leliana (kinda)
Justinia (maybe)

[Akiza]

Characters who may have died in DAO and DA2 and did not come back:

 

Spoiler

All of the supporting Origin characters who died (ie. the Couslands, Tamlen, Trian, etc.)

Alistair

Duncan

Ser Jory and Daveth

Cailan

Dog

Zevran

Wynne

Shale

Loghain

Arl Howe

Ser Cauthrien

Connor

Isolde

Uldred

Zathrian and his clan

Witherfang/Swiftrunner

Bhelen/Harrowmont

Caridin/Branka

Jarvia

Avernus/Sophia Dryden (possessed)

Riordan

The Archdemon

Nathaniel Howe

Sigrun

The Architect (has not re-appeared, though he may return)

The Mother

Bethany/Carver

Leandra

Wesley

Merrill

Fenris

Meredith

Orsino

The Arishok

Quentin

Danarius

Castillion

Tarohne/Viveka

Kieran

Grace/Ser Thrask

Sister Petrice

Grand Cleric Elthina

Seamus Dumar

Viscount Dumar

Gascard Dupuis

Bartrand

Javaris "Why can't I get his boots" Tintop

Ketojan

Merrill's clan, including Keeper Marethari

Janeka/Larius

Duke Prosper

And a bunch of other minor characters

 

 

-If the Architect dodged his death with the same ability showed by Corypheus then there are high chances that he infiltrated himself in the HoF however i do think he is dead.

-Orsino death was forced as mandatory without any reason.

-I don't recall that Kieran died he simply did not came to be.

 

Characters who might have died but came back because of a bug or because they died offscreen:

Spoiler

The Warden (if you chose to bring them back in Awakening)
Anders (can be refused entry to the Wardens in Awakening, though he remains dead in DAI if killed)
Justice (ditto)
Cullen (went mad in an epilogue screen that was later retconned)
Zevran (bug)
Oghren (you can "kill" Oghren, though you never see a finishing blow)
Morrigan (she was stabbed, though you never saw her die)

 

-Zevran is  a bug import.

-Oghren is pretty much dead in DAO even if there is no finishing blow cinematic but is later resurrected.

Morrigan had  a weird plot armor in WH which ending was very rushed she had also another one against the dragon of Corypheus.

 

 

Characters who definitely returned from the dead:

Spoiler

Flemeth
Corypheus
Leliana (kinda)
Justinia (maybe)

Corypheus and FLemeth were never really dead at least their souls were not destroyed only their empty bodies were killed.

I consider Justina dead.

[Lunatica]

Leiliana" who appears in the later material if you kill her seems to not actually be Leiliana

Gaider included Leliana in DAII because he forgot that the option to kill her in DAO existed.

[thats1evildude]

 

-I don't recall that Kieran died he simply did not came to be.

 

Different Kieran. I'm referring to the Templar recruit who was captured by Tarohne's cult in Enemies Among Us. He can be killed.

 

 

 

-Oghren is pretty much dead in DAO even if there is no finishing blow cinematic but is later resurrected.

 

From what I've seen, you click "Kill Oghren" and he instantly disappears. That is not very conclusive.

 

My point is that death is not a revolving door in Dragon Age; multitudes of characters have died and have stayed dead. A couple of characters did come back, but generally for reasons that are well-explained.

[Andromelek]

Different Kieran. I'm referring to the Templar recruit who was captured by Tarohne's cult in Enemies Among Us. He can be killed.

Actually, the Templar's name is Keran, without the "i", you forgot to put Evangeline in your list of "definitely" came back from dead (as she's alive regardless you kill Wynne or not), Anders and Nathaniel do comment on Anders being dead, so that's another for the list.

I personally think that there are three main reasons of why Bioware revives people:

1) They're too old to go down easily/ or they are really relevant for the plot.(this is why I doubt the Architect is truly dead).

2) Lazy writing

3)"Fck it, I like this dude" aka Writers' pets (Alistair might be an exception, since despite having "writer's pet" tag all around remains dead, but that seems to be due to killing Archdemon also destroys the Warden's soul, that's also why we should never ever see HOF again )

[thats1evildude]

For the sake of ease, I left out people in the books/comics. But if you like, the "dead and hasn't come back list" from the books/comics includes:

 

Spoiler

Maric

Katriel (not counting a spirit posing as her)

Rowan

Meghren

Severan

Julien and Nicolas

Genevie and Bregan

Kell ap Morgan

Remille

Pharamond

First Seeker Lambert

Duke Remarche

Felassan

Claudio Vallisti

Yavana

Aurelian Titus

 

I'm omitting all the Fourth Blight characters, since they'd HAVE to be dead, and book characters who died in the games.

 

 

Actually, the Templar's name is Keran.

 

Ah yes, my mistake.

[Andromelek]

Huh, I mentioned Evangeline because she was mentioned in the game and because her means to come back depends on a character that can be killed and is left dead.

On the comic's characters, Gaider did say that those events definitely do not happen if Alistair is dead, and only Maric and Titus would have a reason to be dead.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Gaider included Leliana in DAII because he forgot that the option to kill her in DAO existed.

Wasn't that option referenced in DAII? (I'm legitimately asking since I don't have a state where Leiliana died and have never played DA2.)

 

Even if it wasn't I'm not sure why that matters to my point that the real Leiliana is later established as having died if you killed her.

 

 

On the comic's characters, Gaider did say that those events definitely do not happen if Alistair is dead, and only Maric and Titus would have a reason to be dead.

Even if Loghain's alive? Because it seems to me he could fill the part if Alistair's dead and Loghain isn't.

[Andromelek]

Wasn't that option referenced in DAII? (I'm legitimately asking since I don't have a state where Leiliana died and have never played DA2.)
 
Even if it wasn't I'm not sure why that matters to my point that the real Leiliana is later established as having died if you killed her.

What do you mean by "real"? It's been always her.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What do you mean by "real"? It's been always her.

Well, while Trespasser doesn't actually explicitly state what happened to her, "the lyrium sang thought into being" doesn't seem to indicate that who/what we meet in DA2 and DA:I is the real Leiliana.

[thats1evildude]

Wasn't that option referenced in DAII? (I'm legitimately asking since I don't have a state where Leiliana died and have never played DA2.)

 

Yes, the choice is recognized.

 

https://youtu.be/vLfq6gySl3A?t=3m39s

 

Well, while Trespasser doesn't actually explicitly state what happened to her, "the lyrium sang thought into being" doesn't seem to indicate that who/what we meet in DA2 and DA:I is the real Leiliana.

 

Yes, she's more like a thoughtform.

[Lunatica]

Wasn't that option referenced in DAII? (I'm legitimately asking since I don't have a state where Leiliana died and have never played DA2.)

 

Even if it wasn't I'm not sure why that matters to my point that the real Leiliana is later established as having died if you killed her.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps, but I suspect it then lies with a difference between why the player's making the choice and the choice we're actually providing them. At no point is the choice "kill Isabela" offered, just as at no point is the choice "kill Leliana" offered. 

Gaider doesn't even remember what may happen to characters so he proceed to write a plot and when he realize that there are some incongruences he try to fix it with some bizarre explanation.Real Leliana or false Leliana what does it matter?They are the same exact character