260 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 

Gaider doesn't even remember what may happen to characters so he proceed to write a plot and when he realize that there are some incongruences he try to fix it with some bizarre explanation.

I'm not sure where you're getting any of that. Or how it answers my point.

 

Real Leliana or false Leliana what does it matter?They are the same exact character 

Yes except no. If the "sang thought into being" thing preserves Leiliana's consciousness instead of cloning it (and by the way those aren't the words I'd choose if I wanted to describe reawakening someone's consciousness outside their body,) then we're absolutely dealing with the same character. If not, then for most purposes they can be said to be the same character even if I'm pretty sure you need to be the same person to actually be the same character.

[Spirit Vanguard]

I think it was officially stated that if Anders is killed by the player in DA2 he's dead and will remain dead. For whatever that might mean for Justice, however, is unclear...

[Zero]

That's why I make Alistair king in my canon. So, I don't have to be struggling to be deciding between him and Hawke. And in my canon Loghain is dead (cuz I don't find a good reason for a city elf to forgive Loghain for selling her family to Tevinter), so... good bye Stroud. Didn't knew you well, and because of that you're expendable... even if I don't like Hawke and think they are irrelevant (more so, if compared with the HoF or the Inquisitor), I have invested some hours of my time in my Hawke, and would not sacrifice him to save a warden I don't even know.

 

My non-canon Loghain... that's another story, because I like to play with possibilities. So, I killed him in one playthrough, and killed my non-canon Hawke in another, just to see what happened (and be disappointed because didn't happen anything interesting...)

 

you can have been nice at him, taken every moral choice and allowed him to have his vengeance at Loghain, yet if you decide you want to stop the Blight and live without killing him either, he will say that you are an immoral bastard at your back, do you call that a friend? I do not.

 

Which is kinda funny. I remember him being mad with my no-canon HoF for picking sides with the werewolves, or for having Branka doing golems... what is what he will do if given the chance of being the one making decisions (the Darkspawn Chronicles). Heck, is even more hypocritical when you think he did the Dark Ritual in that DLC and is criticizing your Warden in DA:I for doing it. 

[DDJ]

That's why I make Alistair king in my canon. So, I don't have to be struggling to be deciding between him and Hawke. And in my canon Loghain is dead (cuz I don't find a good reason for a city elf to forgive Loghain for selling her family to Tevinter), so... good bye Stroud. Didn't knew you well, and because of that you're expendable... even if I don't like Hawke and think they are irrelevant (more so, if compared with the HoF or the Inquisitor), I have invested some hours of my time in my Hawke, and would not sacrifice him to save a warden I don't even know.

 

My non-canon Loghain... that's another story, because I like to play with possibilities. So, I killed him in one playthrough, and killed my non-canon Hawke in another, just to see what happened (and be disappointed because didn't happen anything interesting...)

 

 

Which is kinda funny. I remember him being mad with my no-canon HoF for picking sides with the werewolves, or for having Branka doing golems... what is what he will do if given the chance of being the one making decisions (the Darkspawn Chronicles). Heck, is even more hypocritical when you think he did the Dark Ritual in that DLC and is criticizing your Warden in DA:I for doing it. 

 

Which raises many interesting points.  I keep Hawke because Varric likes Hawke and had Stroud come foreword a little sooner, perhaps a lot of this could have been averted.

[Zero]

Which raises many interesting points.  I keep Hawke because Varric likes Hawke and had Stroud come foreword a little sooner, perhaps a lot of this could have been averted.

 

The problem with Stroud is that the writers didn't gave us reason to make us be more interested in the character, and thus interested in saving him (beyond for seeing what happens if Hawke dies or if you really hate Hawke). People will chose Loghain over Hawke because they care about him, because you have DA:O and some novels to get to know about him. Even if you didn't read the novels, DA:O is enough to know Loghain and care about him. Same with Alistair, and Hawke in DA 2. You sympathize with those characters, and deciding to killing them becomes an interesting choice that will have a impact in your game world. 

 

With Stroud you don't have reasons to like him. Yeah, in DA 2 he could potentially save your sibling, but you don't interact with him enough to like the character. Is just a another NPC. Depend on your choices, he will appear a second time... and again, don't interact with us enough to like him. Heck, he even don't help us in the Qunari invasion, which could make some people dislike the character. And I'm one of those. Yeah, wardens are supposed to be neutral and that garbage, but we know some wardens in Ferelden did help when needed, because was the right thing to do. If you left Alistair in the wardens in DA:O, killed your sibling in the Deep Roads, or didn't take them to that trip in the first place, then Stroud will not even appear that second time and we will have even less reasons to like/dislike the character (we will have more ammunition for the hypocritical Alistair topic, instead).

 

In DA:I, you get to talk with Stroud in two occasions before the Fade, and his character is as bland and unexplored like in DA 2. You don't get reasons to sympathize with him, and instead reasons to blame him (the wardens involved in the Divine's death). And saving him will have no impact at all for your game world, because none of your characters in DA:I or DA 2 are related to him.

 

If the writers have given Stroud a better background, I'm sure he will not be the default option for be left in the Fade in game states were there is no DA:O warden ally.

[Andromelek]

 
Which is kinda funny. I remember him being mad with my no-canon HoF for picking sides with the werewolves, or for having Branka doing golems... what is what he will do if given the chance of being the one making decisions (the Darkspawn Chronicles). Heck, is even more hypocritical when you think he did the Dark Ritual in that DLC and is criticizing your Warden in DA:I for doing it.

Hypocrite, whiny and treacherous, I'd say he only wastes the oxygen in Thedas, that's why I rather kill him and have Loghain as a Warden, so I can leave him behind and save Hawke and Stroud's epic mustache.

[Akiza]

I agree with Alistair  about the Dark ritual a good old god is only one that has been annihilated i show no mercy for them and for those who wanted to save them.

 

I doubt that the Dlc make sense in there he married with Anora but he also killed Loghain and we know that Anora do not ever marry their father's killer,the developers forced the ritual on him only because they want to provide the option to kill Morrigan in the Dlc and she cannot be in Denerim without the DR.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Which is kinda funny. I remember him being mad with my no-canon HoF for picking sides with the werewolves, or for having Branka doing golems... what is what he will do if given the chance of being the one making decisions (the Darkspawn Chronicles). Heck, is even more hypocritical when you think he did the Dark Ritual in that DLC and is criticizing your Warden in DA:I for doing it. 

It's not the same Alistair, though. He doesn't know he'd do it without your influence. And the one who does it doesn't know he'd get on your case if you did it. So I'm not sure either's a hypocrite.

[phoray]

It's not the same Alistair, though. He doesn't know he'd do it without your influence. And the one who does it doesn't know he'd get on your case if you did it. So I'm not sure either's a hypocrite.

I never played Drakspawn Chronicles because I thought it was just Ostagar followed by a win screen. Does it actually play out as the whole game?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I never played Drakspawn Chronicles because I thought it was just Ostagar followed by a win screen. Does it actually play out as the whole game?

It's the Battle of Denerim followed by a win screen. Only, you're playing as a darkspawn, and the darkspawn are the ones who get the win screen. (This despite Alistair doing a couple of amoral things to make his army more powerful.)

[Zero]

I never played Drakspawn Chronicles because I thought it was just Ostagar followed by a win screen. Does it actually play out as the whole game?

 

You only play the Battle of Denerim, but in the POV of the darkspawn Vanguard. However, you get Codex that tell us Alistair's story in this "alternate world" and you can see certain allies that give us idea of this Alistair moral viewpoint. 

[sniper_arrow]

Gaider included Leliana in DAII because he forgot that the option to kill her in DAO existed.

 

This is a lame excuse of overseeing your characters.

[DDJ]

This is a lame excuse of overseeing your characters.

I would agree, but I think it just show we are human.  I think what bothers me far more is that the canon, or at least what passes for it, can vary to wide extremes.  I say else where that the only main companion I am positive is dead is Wynne who died in one of the books.  Yet the option to kill her at the Temple of Sacred Ashes along with Leliana does exist.  Put simply, while I understand why they wish to have such options available to "spice" the game, I believe it would be more prudent and avoid a lot of "hail Mary" write overs such as a Leliana dead in DAO and alive in DAI talking about how she was raised by a miracle.  While I do believe in miracles, I do not appreciate the fact that writers' favorites are plot armor protected to the nth degree.  All of the Leliana bit could have been written out of the story by using a new hand of the divine in DA2 and DAI.  I really do like the character, but let us try to have at least a semblance of consistency.

[Lunatica]

This is a lame excuse of overseeing your characters.

Honestly i didn't even understood what you meant and what does "my characters" have to do with anything?

Gaider admitted many times that he do not play the final version of the games he write and this cause that him is sometime not aware of all the options of the games.

[Secret Rare]

Not sure why AListair at the absence of my warden accepted the ritual maybe because he was the only warden  apart from Riordan?

Anyway i gladly killed him in that Dlc the Dark ritual will never see the light of the sun no matter what Pc or Dlc i'm playing.

[Zero]

I would agree, but I think it just show we are human.  I think what bothers me far more is that the canon, or at least what passes for it, can vary to wide extremes.  I say else where that the only main companion I am positive is dead is Wynne who died in one of the books.  Yet the option to kill her at the Temple of Sacred Ashes along with Leliana does exist. 

 

You can even kill Wynne in the Circle, and the opportunity is presented twice (when you met her in the first floor or in the room where Cullen is imprisoned). 

[Andromelek]

It's not the same Alistair, though. He doesn't know he'd do it without your influence. And the one who does it doesn't know he'd get on your case if you did it. So I'm not sure either's a hypocrite.

Every world state has an alternate dimension version of every character, but just like on Bioshock Infinite; there are constants and variables, the characters' personality is among the constants so him being from an alternate dimension is no excuse.

[Aren]

You can even kill Wynne in the Circle, and the opportunity is presented twice (when you met her in the first floor or in the room where Cullen is imprisoned). 

In DAO the player is presented with many opportunities to kill companions since i presume they were not sure to  be able to make other games for the DA franchise  and back then for what i recall the only ones which were protected from the warden were Morrigan and Sten

(They never explained however how he survived).

 

In DAI the Inquisitor is not presented with the options to kill all these party members  (even if they advertised that you could have completed the game with only one character  alive) and the death of most importants npc is rather ominus because i presume they learned the lessons that death may cause problems for potential returning characters in DA4.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

In my world state, Alistair is always King of Ferelden. I couldn't get rid of Loghain and Anora soon enough. There's nothing that would make me forgive everything that Loghain did. I'm usually pretty lenient when it comes to forgiveness. I could have understood if it was just the issue of pulling away from his commitment to the Grey Wardens. I would have given him another chance after that. I can't just let him go after the slaver issue, and I can't trust Anora to be in charge of the country knowing this happened because she couldn't control her sociopath dad. It was already on her to hold things together once, and she dropped the ball in a major way. Alistair was the only choice I could live with for ruling the country, so Loghain has to die.

 

I sacrifice Stroud, because it makes more sense to me. I feel like Hawke has the potential to be more of a boon to the world alive. Stroud seems like a nice man and I was sad that I had to leave him, but I feel like his death could serve a larger purpose. I felt like his sacrifice would help redeem the Wardens more than he could help them just by rebuilding. The Wardens needed something to look up to, and his active leadership would have been nice, but his sacrifice allows them to know they closed this loop themselves. They did something terrible in service to the thing they were sworn to fight, but one of their own had resisted that path the whole way and he was ultimately the one to sacrifice himself to stop it. Basically, I think Stroud was the more powerful martyr, while Hawke was more powerful as a living ally.

[Aren]

Every world state has an alternate dimension version of every character, but just like on Bioshock Infinite; there are constants and variables, the characters' personality is among the constants so him being from an alternate dimension is no excuse.

I find the whole idea of  different world-states where characters are in the  Schrodinger state very detrimental for the plot.

i do think they should just change the formula and eliminate the returning characters which are filled with too many variables at this point.

[Secret Rare]

In my world state, Alistair is always King of Ferelden. I couldn't get rid of Loghain and Anora soon enough. There's nothing that would make me forgive everything that Loghain did. I'm usually pretty lenient when it comes to forgiveness. I could have understood if it was just the issue of pulling away from his commitment to the Grey Wardens. I would have given him another chance after that. I can't just let him go after the slaver issue, and I can't trust Anora to be in charge of the country knowing this happened because she couldn't control her sociopath dad. It was already on her to hold things together once, and she dropped the ball in a major way. Alistair was the only choice I could live with for ruling the country, so Loghain has to die.

 

I completely dissent from this since i do think that as a Grey warden i shouldn't care much for what Loghain did he is only a resource for me exactly like Riordan said so at least he don't die  without being useful to me(that he live two weeks more it changes nothing) while i do think Anora has no faults for anything since Howe  kidnapped her.As for Alistair he did nothing more but to whine and whine and got attached to my warden's skirt all the time like a baby not exactly what i would want as a king i don't see him as someone that can compete with the other rulers of Thedas.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

 

I completely dissent from this since i do think that as a Grey warden i shouldn't care much for what Loghain did he is only a resource for me exactly like Riordan said so at least he don't die  without being useful to me(that he live two weeks more it changes nothing) while i do think Anora has no faults for anything since Howe  kidnapped her.As for Alistair he did nothing more but to whine and whine and got attached to my warden's skirt all the time like a baby not exactly what i would want as a king i don't see him as someone that can compete with the other rulers of Thedas.

 

 

That is more in the spirit of Warden philosophy, but I didn't play as just adopting the beliefs and values of an organization that I barely knew anything about in character. Joining the Wardens was a last choice option and I followed through because someone had to kill the Archdemon, or else everyone dies. I didn't think "as a Warden" in that context, but I'm not saying you're wrong for doing so. 

[DDJ]

You can even kill Wynne in the Circle, and the opportunity is presented twice (when you met her in the first floor or in the room where Cullen is imprisoned). 

You are absolutely right.  Thank you for refreshing my memory.

[DDJ]

In DAO the player is presented with many opportunities to kill companions since i presume they were not sure to  be able to make other games for the DA franchise  and back then for what i recall the only ones which were protected from the warden were Morrigan and Sten

(They never explained however how he survived).

 

In DAI the Inquisitor is not presented with the options to kill all these party members  (even if they advertised that you could have completed the game with only one character  alive) and the death of most importants npc is rather ominus because i presume they learned the lessons that death may cause problems for potential returning characters in DA4.

Very well put.  So, with the lone exception of Wynne who died in the books and, while I did like her, she was far too noble.  The very nice end of the good scale.  But now that you mention it, I am not sure that any of the major characters ever dies, particularly if they think of a plot line where it is necessary to have them back.  So, while I assume that Wynne is dead, I am not betting my life on it.  Still for all the discussion we do, I hope the writers at BioWare read and learn from it.  Of course then there would be less discussion.  Nuts.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Every world state has an alternate dimension version of every character, but just like on Bioshock Infinite; there are constants and variables, the characters' personality is among the constants so him being from an alternate dimension is no excuse.

I'm not so sure about that. I think the implication is that the strain of knowing that he has to deal with this himself did a number on his personality.