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Warden Alistair. That was a bad idea.


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#201
Andromelek

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I'm not so sure about that. I think the implication is that the strain of knowing that he has to deal with this himself did a number on his personality.


Well, he is still not a genius on DSC, and he is still whiny, hypocrite and treacherous on the "real" version just look at his views on the Wardens and on Golems; he is ok with the first, even when it consists on fooling and possibly killing the conscripts, he did not argue about killing Ser Jory, but he doesn't like Golems, even when it has a 100% rate of succes.
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#202
DDJ

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Well, he is still not a genius on DSC, and he is still whiny, hypocrite and treacherous on the "real" version just look at his views on the Wardens and on Golems; he is ok with the first, even when it consists on fooling and possibly killing the conscripts, he did not argue about killing Ser Jory, but he doesn't like Golems, even when it has a 100% rate of succes.

 

You are putting it mildly and extremely politely.  Well said.



#203
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Well, he is still not a genius on DSC, and he is still whiny, hypocrite and treacherous on the "real" version just look at his views on the Wardens and on Golems; he is ok with the first, even when it consists on fooling and possibly killing the conscripts, he did not argue about killing Ser Jory, but he doesn't like Golems, even when it has a 100% rate of succes.

I'll give you most of this, but the golems aren't the best example of these qualities you can give. There's a big difference between enslaving someone's soul for as long as their (new and basically immortal) body lasts and the Joining. The Joining you'll be free of in thirty years, tops. And it doesn't come with a control rod. So Alistair might not be a hypocrite here depending on what his exact rationale for not liking the Anvil is. (He doesn't actually give any explanation other that "it could be us one day.")



#204
Andromelek

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What about "I care for Eamon and Teagan" and "We Wardens are Heroes" but "I'm willing to play with the lives of thousands to get my revenge and I'll leave all of you to die alone if you don't let me"? I think that's a better example.
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#205
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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What about "I care for Eamon and Teagan" and "We Wardens are Heroes" but "I'm willing to play with the lives of thousands to get my revenge and I'll leave all of you to die alone if you don't let me"? I think that's a better example.

Very much so.


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#206
German Soldier

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Very well put. So, with the lone exception of Wynne who died in the books and, while I did like her, she was far too noble. The very nice end of the good scale. But now that you mention it, I am not sure that any of the major characters ever dies, particularly if they think of a plot line where it is necessary to have them back. So, while I assume that Wynne is dead, I am not betting my life on it. Still for all the discussion we do, I hope the writers at BioWare read and learn from it. Of course then there would be less discussion. Nuts.

If they desire they can bring back Wynne and use the spirit of faith nonsense to do it.
They will not do this simply because they don't need Wynne anymore.

#207
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What about "I care for Eamon and Teagan" and "We Wardens are Heroes" but "I'm willing to play with the lives of thousands to get my revenge and I'll leave all of you to die alone if you don't let me"? I think that's a better example.

 

This is extremely well put.



#208
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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If they desire they can bring back Wynne and use the spirit of faith nonsense to do it.
They will not do this simply because they don't need Wynne anymore.

At this point they really can't. She's years dead, and I think she was cremated, and the Spirit of Faith is in someone else. I suppose they could come up with some kind of handwave if they smoked the right herbs, but they'd lose less credibility by having the next PC jump a shark in a speedboat.



#209
fdrty

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I'll give you most of this, but the golems aren't the best example of these qualities you can give. There's a big difference between enslaving someone's soul for as long as their (new and basically immortal) body lasts and the Joining. The Joining you'll be free of in thirty years, tops. And it doesn't come with a control rod. So Alistair might not be a hypocrite here depending on what his exact rationale for not liking the Anvil is. (He doesn't actually give any explanation other that "it could be us one day.")

One thing to remember is that there is a case of a warden losing her taint (wow, that sounds dirty). And it's Alistair's mother, too. Though whether or not Alistair is aware of this is another thing entirely, and, let's be honest, he probably isn't.

 

I guess the big difference between Golems and wardens is that wardens are necessary. 2 golems could never do what Alistair and the Warden did (and Riordan, everyone always seems to forget that guy) Golems are usually made either from a selfish desire to dominate (both the power of the golems and the threat of becoming one) and with no regard for human life. It's expediency vs necessity.

 

Another thing is that the Wardens do actually let you back out, up until you learn of the joining, whereas people who are being turned into golems often have no choice in the matter to begin with. Which is funny, because the joining seems to be public knowledge by Inquisition, so Jory was basically killed for nothing. Oops.

 

What about "I care for Eamon and Teagan" and "We Wardens are Heroes" but "I'm willing to play with the lives of thousands to get my revenge and I'll leave all of you to die alone if you don't let me"? I think that's a better example.

 

It dawned on me how much of a tool Alistair was at the landsmeet. Loghain is a capable warrior and an incredible commander who is well respected by nobles and commoners alike, and yet conscripting him and keeping Alistair was somehow impossible, because Alistair is a whiny ass.

 

So, let me get this straight - Alistair will lie, murder and do all sorts of shady stuff 'for the greater good' but he won't put aside his revenge? What a hypocrite. The fact that he deserts his duty and his vows and becomes a drunk shows that he was never really save the world material to begin with.

 

At this point they really can't. She's years dead, and I think she was cremated, and the Spirit of Faith is in someone else. I suppose they could come up with some kind of handwave if they smoked the right herbs, but they'd lose less credibility by having the next PC jump a shark in a speedboat.

 

Well, we did have the divine's spirit. It's not impossible for Wynne, or at least her spirit to make a comeback in future games.


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#210
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One thing to remember is that there is a case of a warden losing her taint (wow, that sounds dirty). And it's Alistair's mother, too. Though whether or not Alistair is aware of this is another thing entirely, and, let's be honest, he probably isn't.

 

I guess the big difference between Golems and wardens is that wardens are necessary. 2 golems could never do what Alistair and the Warden did (and Riordan, everyone always seems to forget that guy) Golems are usually made either from a selfish desire to dominate (both the power of the golems and the threat of becoming one) and with no regard for human life. It's expediency vs necessity.

 

Another thing is that the Wardens do actually let you back out, up until you learn of the joining, whereas people who are being turned into golems often have no choice in the matter to begin with. Which is funny, because the joining seems to be public knowledge by Inquisition, so Jory was basically killed for nothing. Oops.

 

 

It dawned on me how much of a tool Alistair was at the landsmeet. Loghain is a capable warrior and an incredible commander who is well respected by nobles and commoners alike, and yet conscripting him and keeping Alistair was somehow impossible, because Alistair is a whiny ass.

 

So, let me get this straight - Alistair will lie, murder and do all sorts of shady stuff 'for the greater good' but he won't put aside his revenge? What a hypocrite. The fact that he deserts his duty and his vows and becomes a drunk shows that he was never really save the world material to begin with.

 

 

Well, we did have the divine's spirit. It's not impossible for Wynne, or at least her spirit to make a comeback in future games.

 

You raise good points.  The point is that save the world material or not, to follow the Warden creed of no witnesses he would need to be killed.  I would surely like to know about this choice of backing out.  On the second play through I tried just to see where it led.  Duncan basically says no way.  So if there is some reference to it I would really like to know where.  Seriously.



#211
fdrty

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You raise good points.  The point is that save the world material or not, to follow the Warden creed of no witnesses he would need to be killed.  I would surely like to know about this choice of backing out.  On the second play through I tried just to see where it led.  Duncan basically says no way.  So if there is some reference to it I would really like to know where.  Seriously.

 

I think Blackwall references that conscription and the ancient contracts are only as useful as a clever tongue makes them - I mean, what will the wardens do if you refuse? They're going to save the world anyway, and they are neither petty enough or have enough free time to really hold it against anyone. Nor are they foolish enough to damage their diplomatic ties with everyone. And they need committed recruits, or else they'd be the Night's Watch.

 

Most of the recruits want to be wardens, because they hear minstrels sing of wardens of old - I believe that King Cailan references that? Other than that, recruits tend to be forced their by circumstance, just like your character (if you are Dwarf Noble, commoner, City elf or Human noble) because they need the immunity that being a warden confers. They aren't conscripted often, only usually to save someone from execution - the fact that nobody even knew where the ancient treaties were tells you of how well defined the legal powers of the wardens are.

 

The game doesn't let you back out because of course it won't - unless you want a Non Standard Game Over screen. But in the lore, most people do actually get that chance. I seem to remember Duncan at least hinting that, if the recruits that come freely aren't committed, that they are free to go.



#212
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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One thing to remember is that there is a case of a warden losing her taint (wow, that sounds dirty). And it's Alistair's mother, too. Though whether or not Alistair is aware of this is another thing entirely, and, let's be honest, he probably isn't.

If he was, then the HoF's quest to cure the Taint wouldn't be necessary if the Architect was still alive. So I'm going to guess he's not.

 

 

I guess the big difference between Golems and wardens is that wardens are necessary. 2 golems could never do what Alistair and the Warden did (and Riordan, everyone always seems to forget that guy) Golems are usually made either from a selfish desire to dominate (both the power of the golems and the threat of becoming one) and with no regard for human life. It's expediency vs necessity.

I considered raising this point. It is a valid one, but can't be used to defend Alistair since he didn't know about it at the time he asked you not to use the Anvil.

 

 

Another thing is that the Wardens do actually let you back out, up until you learn of the joining, whereas people who are being turned into golems often have no choice in the matter to begin with.

Not always. Daveth had no choice, and the Warden PCs who had been saved from some horrible fate using the Rite of Conscription probably didn't either. (At least legally speaking, since surprise surprise: in DA:I we learn of a conscript saved from the gallows who deserted.) I'd actually imagine none of the PCs did, since even the ones who came willingly were probably subject to Conscription if they looked like they were backing out due to the amount of promise Duncan saw in them.

 

 

Which is funny, because the joining seems to be public knowledge by Inquisition, so Jory was basically killed for nothing. Oops.

It varies. Anora knows one of the really sensitive bits as of late Origins, and while it's not clear who heard her say it and who didn't she didn't seem to be troubling herself to keep her voice down. In Inquisition the NPCs who know the secret kind of dance around it as much as they can (which eventually becomes not much at all given that you wind up in it up to your eyeballs,) and the false Blackwall is (in retrospect) obviously pretending to know but be unable to tell.

 

 

Well, we did have the divine's spirit. It's not impossible for Wynne, or at least her spirit to make a comeback in future games.

Wynne coming back as a ghost is a maybe, though given that with ghosts it's usually ambiguous whether it's a spirit impersonating them or the real deal I doubt it. There's only one obvious spirit who'd impersonate Wynne, and that spirit doesn't have time to ghost about. (Though maybe if we meet both Evangeline and the spirit, and meet them as separate characters, the spirit will take Wynne's form?)

 

 

I think Blackwall references that conscription and the ancient contracts are only as useful as a clever tongue makes them - I mean, what will the wardens do if you refuse? They're going to save the world anyway, and they are neither petty enough or have enough free time to really hold it against anyone. Nor are they foolish enough to damage their diplomatic ties with everyone. And they need committed recruits, or else they'd be the Night's Watch.

What Blackwall says is that Conscription is only as binding as a clever tongue can make it when there isn't a Blight on. That's not the same as people being free to leave during a Blight, and certainly isn't the same as Duncan being willing to let Daveth or the Warden PC leave, for example. To be sure Duncan steps carefully around people who might take offense to his actions, but by the time you get to Ostagar you have nobody protecting you no matter what your Origin is. (Edit: And this assumes the false Blackwall's word on these matters is accurate, which we can't.)


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#213
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I actually almost always choose Hawke to stay anyway. Not because I hate him/her - on the contrary, because I feel if anybody has a chance to survive in that situation it would be Hawke.

 

Spirit Healer Hawke vs Nightmare Demon.

 

Hawke wins just by using Staff Attacks, Healing Aura, Petrify and Glyph of Paralysis.


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#214
DDJ

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Spirit Healer Hawke vs Nightmare Demon.

 

Hawke wins just by using Staff Attacks, Healing Aura, Petrify and Glyph of Paralysis.

 

These are well made points from both of you.



#215
Zero

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Spirit Healer Hawke vs Nightmare Demon.

 

Hawke wins just by using Staff Attacks, Healing Aura, Petrify and Glyph of Paralysis.

 

Then you remember red lyrium, the Egg, the Breach or whatever force (devs/writers/PIS) changed the very nature of magic in Thedas, and those spell do not exist anymore, and Hawke is pretty dead.  ( ಠ ͜ʖರೃ)



#216
thats1evildude

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Spirit Healer Hawke vs Nightmare Demon.

 

Hawke wins just by using Staff Attacks, Healing Aura, Petrify and Glyph of Paralysis.

 

Nightmare is immune to physical effects. Petrify and Glyph of Paralysis won't work.

 



#217
Donquijote and 59 others

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Well, he is still not a genius on DSC, and he is still whiny, hypocrite and treacherous on the "real" version just look at his views on the Wardens and on Golems; he is ok with the first, even when it consists on fooling and possibly killing the conscripts, he did not argue about killing Ser Jory, but he doesn't like Golems, even when it has a 100% rate of succes.

I don't like Golems neither to put them in the hand of a mad woman and i also don't like what Duncan did to Jory which even had a family whom child is now orphan because of Duncan in fact i did not regret at all his death guess that i'm pretty consistent.


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#218
Donquijote and 59 others

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What about "I care for Eamon and Teagan" and "We Wardens are Heroes" but "I'm willing to play with the lives of thousands to get my revenge and I'll leave all of you to die alone if you don't let me"? I think that's a better example.

My Answer?
Off with his head.

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#219
German Soldier

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What about "I care for Eamon and Teagan" and "We Wardens are Heroes" but "I'm willing to play with the lives of thousands to get my revenge and I'll leave all of you to die alone if you don't let me"? I think that's a better example.

Among the DAO crew do you think there was someone which was not an hypocrite?

Maybe Sten but he is a Qunari  so it is to be expected given their way of thinking,Shale and  that saint of Wynne,the others.....well...

 

At this point they really can't. She's years dead, and I think she was cremated, and the Spirit of Faith is in someone else. I suppose they could come up with some kind of handwave if they smoked the right herbs, but they'd lose less credibility by having the next PC jump a shark in a speedboat.

They can do the same thing they did with the Divine and clone Wynne with a spirit of faith.

If a person die in Thedas they can always bring them back with a spirit that looks and behave exactly like the original.


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#220
DDJ

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I don't like Golems neither to put them in the hand of a mad woman and i also don't like what Duncan did to Jory which even had a family whom child is now orphan because of Duncan in fact i did not regret at all his death guess that i'm pretty consistent.

Very well put.  Boiled down to its simplest form, golems are no more than slaves, and since the lore provided by the paragons states that many were forced into it, there you go.  To me it seems like a might makes right philosophy which sadly the writers try to gloss over.  I could be wrong of course. .    


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#221
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Most of the recruits want to be wardens, because they hear minstrels sing of wardens of old - I believe that King Cailan references that? Other than that, recruits tend to be forced their by circumstance, just like your character (if you are Dwarf Noble, commoner, City elf or Human noble) because they need the immunity that being a warden confers. They aren't conscripted often, only usually to save someone from execution - the fact that nobody even knew where the ancient treaties were tells you of how well defined the legal powers of the wardens are.

 

The wardens don't force anyone to join most of the time they recruit criminals which have no way of escaping justice or those who willingly join.
In DAO not only there was a blight but also most Origins were in a critical situation and Duncan gain profit from this(however your Pc could have realistically decided to leave once that he was dead but game mechanics denied this). They don't abuse the  right of conscription because they know it could only make enemies.

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#222
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The wardens don't force anyone to join most of the time they recruit criminals which have no way of escaping justice or those who willingly join.
In DAO not only there was a blight but also most Origins were in a critical situation and Duncan gain profit from this(however your Pc could have realistically decided to leave once that he was dead but game mechanics denied this). They don't abuse the  right of conscription because they know it could only make enemies.

 

 

I think that is fair, but I would suggest that the idea of "I will only help you if you become a Warden" is, to me in any event, rather abhorrent.  Duncan has no way of knowing that he is recruiting HoF.  On the other hand he does know that he intends to poison them and ruin any chance they would have for any kind of a normal life.  If you are a female and want children for example, you might get them.  Unfortunately they will all be darkspawn.  If you are a male, you can look forward to a solid retirement of ghouldom.  In both cases you absolutely know that your fate is kept secret from those you care about because to reveal same would reveal secrets of the Wardens.  Heaven help you if you are crippled in battle and can't fight anymore.  I have wondered what happens to those Wardens, but I am suspicious.



#223
Andromelek

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Among the DAO crew do you think there was someone which was not an hypocrite?
Maybe Sten but he is a Qunari  so it is to be expected given their way of thinking,Shale and  that saint of Wynne,the others.....well...


Well, Oghren too, people may dislike him for being a drunk and some sort of comic relief, but I don't remember him lying, and while Morrigan lies and stuff, she at least doesn't hide her real personality, which puts her upstairs compared to Alistair and Leliana that also play to be saints and victims.

#224
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Very well put.  Boiled down to its simplest form, golems are no more than slaves, and since the lore provided by the paragons states that many were forced into it, there you go.  To me it seems like a might makes right philosophy which sadly the writers try to gloss over.  I could be wrong of course. .    

In one of the epilogue of DAO that mad woman of Branka invaded Ferelden to search more people to bring in the anvil of the void and Ferelden entered in war against Orzammar for a while,preserve the anvil isn't a great idea at all since without golems you still have expert dwarven warriors which are more fast than golems...

Alistair is so self absorbed by Duncan that he is unable to realize the crimes he committed most of the time for nothing like killing Jory out of paranoia for the wardens secrets(what secrets?most people know that the joining is dangerous...)not to mention that he was royally stupid to not reveal the Ultimate sacrifce to Alistair in six months of time...what the hell he was waiting for?


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#225
DDJ

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In one of the epilogue of DAO that mad woman of Branka invaded Ferelden to search more people to bring in the anvil of the void and Ferelden entered in war against Orzammar for a while,preserve the anvil isn't a great idea at all since without golems you still have expert dwarven warriors which are more fast than golems...

Alistair is so self absorbed by Duncan that he is unable to realize the crimes he committed most of the time for nothing like killing Jory out of paranoia for the wardens secrets(what secrets?most people know that the joining is dangerous...)not to mention that he was royally stupid to not reveal the Ultimate sacrifce to Alistair in six months of time...what the hell he was waiting for?

 

My own theory is that Duncan had told Alastair about it.  Given Alastair's penchant for deceit, he likely did not want HoF to know it much the same as what the physical changes would be.  Just my thoughts.