745 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

Thanks for the summary, some encouraging sounding things in there, I like the line about going from normal to hero rather than from hero to legend.

 

"The only vehicle you can control is the Mako, no space battles for you"  Boooourns!!!

[Monk]

I wonder if the Mako is "fun" to drive, thanks to the Need for Speed group, does this mean we can drive it in first-person? Because if we're just driving around, driving it in first would be crazy, especially for cliff-like areas (the original's weak point, in my opinion, since it was a tad fragile about landings).

[Gwydden]

Added some new stuff from Polygon, just out now:

 

http://www.polygon.c...preview-e3-2016

inb4 someone complains about the "human-centric" story.

 

I'd say almost all science fiction is human-centric. Moreover, I'd argue most science fiction should be human-centric. Telling a story from the perspective of aliens is just an all around bad idea that belongs to weird hipster-type experimental sci-fi, which ME isn't. Moreover, while I'm sure a few hardcore ME fans are dying to play an alien, I suspect the overwhelming majority of the playerbase will agree with Walters here when he says being a human is far more relatable.

 

Of course, it should be pointed out that a story being human-centric is not the same as it using the Humans Are Special trope, but in order for that to go away from ME, they'll first have to do away with the Protagonist is Special. Which they've never done, except maybe in DA2, and they're obviously not starting now.

[Ahriman]

inb4 someone complains about the "human-centric" story.

You are late.

 

Of course, it should be pointed out that a story being human-centric is not the same as it using the Humans Are Special trope, but in order for that to go away from ME, they'll first have to do away with the Protagonist is Special. Which they've never done, except maybe in DA2, and they're obviously not starting now.

The problem with it, is that Mac doesn't distinguish these two. If it's human perspective, it's about human's rise, nothing else. They couldn't make some proper explanation for humanity's rocket-speed rise during trilogy, so they went with some "genetic diversity" and other nonsense.

[CronoDragoon]

You are late.

 

The problem with it, is that Mac doesn't distinguish these two. If it's human perspective, it's about human's rise, nothing else. They couldn't make some proper explanation for humanity's rocket-speed rise during trilogy, so they went with some "genetic diversity" and other nonsense.

 

Humanity became increasingly important during the trilogy because the Alliance saved the Council's behind in ME1 (alternatively, they let them die, and humanity became even more important). Genetic diversity wasn't involved.

[Gwydden]

The problem with it, is that Mac doesn't distinguish these two. If it's human perspective, it's about human's rise, nothing else. They couldn't make some proper explanation for humanity's rocket-speed rise during trilogy, so they went with some "genetic diversity" and other nonsense.

I don't think the problem is Walter's specifically. I've said a few times around these parts that Shepard is the biggest Sue who ever sued, and he is only the worst Bioware protagonist in that regard, not the only one. The same thing that makes Shepard so ridiculously over the top is what makes humanity special in ME: the writers pandering to the audience. And that is an issue rooted in Bioware's overall design philosophy. Weekes himself defends what they do as "masturbatory fantasy indulgement." You cannot fix one issue without fixing the other, and it doesn't seem like the writers see either of those things as a problem.

[Ahriman]

Humanity became increasingly important during the trilogy because the Alliance saved the Council's behind in ME1 (alternatively, they let them die, and humanity became even more important). Genetic diversity wasn't involved.

Genetic diversity was central point of ME2, Harby couldn't shut up about it.

 

I don't think the problem is Walter's specifically. I've said a few times around these parts that Shepard is the biggest Sue who ever sued, and he is only the worst Bioware protagonist in that regard, not the only one. The same thing that makes Shepard so ridiculously over the top is what makes humanity special in ME: the writers pandering to the audience. And that is an issue rooted in Bioware's overall design philosophy. Weekes himself defends what they do as "masturbatory fantasy indulgement." You cannot fix one issue without fixing the other, and it doesn't seem like the writers see either of those things as a problem.

Saving Earth at the price of others didn't make any sense, until Reapers realized they're gonna win if they just let everyone die in pointless attempt of Earth liberation.

Kidnapping human colonists was about humans in general, Shepard wasn't even alive when it started.

[Gwydden]

Saving Earth at the price of others didn't make any sense, until Reapers realized they're gonna win if they just let everyone die in pointless attempt of Earth liberation.

Kidnapping human colonists was about humans in general, Shepard wasn't even alive when it started.

I think this may be a case of miscommunication at work, since I don't think what you said diminishes the point I was making. I am talking about things through a more Doylist perspective, if you will. Basically:

1. Bioware's design philosophy is that they make escapist fiction, or "masturbatory fantasy indulgement," as in Weeke's quote I posted above. Those were Sawyer's words, actually, but Weekes didn't hesitate to associate them with his own work. And he is considered one of the best writers in both ME and DA by much of the fanbase.
2. If they make escapist fantasy, it follows that they're going to lay it thick, the fanservice I mean. They're more concerned with what the players will find enjoyable than with what is realistic. Again, take a look at the link I posted above.
3. A result of this is that the protagonist in Bioware games will tend to be a larger than life Mary Sue type or close enough. A different result of that design philosophy, in a science fiction setting like ME, is that humans are going to be presented as oh so awesome, because the audience is human and again, these games are designed around pandering to the audience, regardless of realism.

The only way for Bioware to do away with the Humans Are Special trope, therefore, is for them to alter their design philosophy. If they haven't done it by now I don't think they will start any time soon.

[In Exile]

<p>

Well, you would really only need two things to make the journey to Andromeda feasible:

• Some way to preserve the travelers during the long journey. We discovered very effective cryo-sleep as early as Ilos in ME1, and again in Eden Prime during ME3. This machinery is able to last more than 50,000 years, far more than it's necessary for even a slow trip to Andromeda. No retcon here.
• Being able to use FTL without having to worry about the issues with discharge. It is explicitly mentioned in the ME codex that Reapers don't seem to discharge their drives, so you would only have to reverse-engineer their technology. As I said above, Sovereign's corpse was available from the end of ME1 and was still around two years later in ME2. There are other pieces of Reaper technology scattered throughout the galaxy and even other dead Reapers, like the one we encounter in ME2. Plus, there's the collectors, as the Black Ark theory mentions. Heck, it wouldn't even have to be Reaper technology. The protheans could have developed a more effective form of FTL and let the asari know in their archive. Other precursor species could have also had similar technology, and the Milky Way is littered with the ruins of their civilizations. Possibilities are endless.

Or it could just be the crownic scientific achievement of the entire Citadel, creating a very expensive and experimental drive core, too expensive for mass production for most military vessels. If this all comes before the Reapers and around ME1, we're talking about a comically prosperous time for the galaxy. The humans have issues in the Attican Traverse but otherwise the Council is doing great - this is exactly the time for very frivolous expenditures on scientific research.

[fizzypop]

omg are we still arguing about when they leave? I thought we had a confirmed they left before ME3 ending?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Added some new stuff from Polygon, just out now:

 

http://www.polygon.c...preview-e3-2016

Well, that interview pretty much dashed my hopes of there ever being a chance of being able to play as an alien protagonist. I know we won't in MEA, but Mac's words make it sound like the franchise will always be human-centric. 

[Ahriman]

The only way for Bioware to do away with the Humans Are Special trope, therefore, is for them to alter their design philosophy. If they haven't done it by now I don't think they will start any time soon.

I still don't get why you mash up Protagonist Is Special and Humans Are Special together and why are you sure that first always leads to second.

[The Elder King]

Humanity became increasingly important during the trilogy because the Alliance saved the Council's behind in ME1 (alternatively, they let them die, and humanity became even more important). Genetic diversity wasn't involved.

Even the human history before ME starts make us different from other species in the galactic community. Humans were always special in the ME universe

[CronoDragoon]

Even the human history before ME starts make us different from other species in the galactic community. Humans were always special in the ME universe

 

We were special in the sense that the other races didn't like us because of how exceedingly power-hungry and selfish we appeared to the galactic community. I do think Garrus mentions how individualistic humans tended to be as a species, sure, but let's not pretend like humanity is always presented as this great thing in ME. See: Cerberus.

[Gwydden]

I still don't get why you mash up Protagonist Is Special and Humans Are Special together and why are you sure that first always leads to second.

Err, I'm not. I'm saying they are both caused by the same thing e.g. the devs design philosophy. Humans Are Special has always been a part of the ME universe, and I doubt it could have been any other way with Bioware at the helm. My point is that expecting them to make a space opera without using Humans Are Special is like expecting them to drop the idea that the Protagonist is Special.

 

Even the human history before ME starts make us different from other species in the galactic community. Humans were always special in the ME universe

Just so. Humans got an embassy almost immediately while other species had to wait at least a generation. They could go toe to toe with the turians, who had the best military in the galaxy. Their economy could  compete with that of the volus, even though they had thousands of years of experience dominating the galactic market. And so on.

 

It's always been a part of ME, and I don't understand why people expect MEA to be different.

 

We were special in the sense that the other races didn't like us because of how exceedingly power-hungry and selfish we appeared to the galactic community. I do think Garrus mentions how individualistic humans tended to be as a species, sure, but let's not pretend like humanity is always presented as this great thing in ME. See: Cerberus.

Cerberus is kind of a mixed bag. Yeah, they're assholes, but they were also a space empire able to compete with established alien nations, even though de jure they were just a little black ops terrorist group.

[The Elder King]

We were special in the sense that the other races didn't like us because of how exceedingly power-hungry and selfish we appeared to the galactic community. I do think Garrus mentions how individualistic humans tended to be as a species, sure, but let's not pretend like humanity is always presented as this great thing in ME. See: Cerberus.

I'm not saying it as necessairly positive or that we're great. I was referring to the fact that our rise in the galactic community after the discover in Mars was really fast. We managed to stand against the turians, we got an embassy faster then any species, we were considered twice for having a human in the Spectres (as far as we know no other species other then the Council races got it, and not before being part of the Council). 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's always been a part of ME, and I don't understand why people expect MEA to be different.

People like to hope that others will drop bad habits. 

[jtav]

I personally don't care much for the alien species, so human-centric is fine, but I would like to see protagonist specialness toned down to DA levels and to make it easier to play a smart/savvy protagonist.

[sjsharp2011]

Thanks for the summary, some encouraging sounding things in there, I like the line about going from normal to hero rather than from hero to legend.

 

"The only vehicle you can control is the Mako, no space battles for you"  Boooourns!!!

tbh this was never a bother to me as Space battles was never what I play ME for. Yes the space battles look awesome in the cutscenes but as far as I'm concerned I'm happy for them to stay there but that may just be me. I've never been great at pilot simulator type games anyway and would really struggle to get through a section like that. Racing ones it depends on the controls and the overall handling but piloting tends to be a problem. So I'm glad they're sticking with that personally.

[Element Zero]

Well, that interview pretty much dashed my hopes of there ever being a chance of being able to play as an alien protagonist. I know we won't in MEA, but Mac's words make it sound like the franchise will always be human-centric. 

I didn't get that second bit from his words, at all. This game is definitely a human story. Of course, we've known that for some time.

I think we are bound to get alien protagonists down the road. They know many of their fans want it. Realistically, that human protagonist wasn't very impressive looking. She was the lest impressive looking thing in the whole trailer, definitely not up to par with any of the current gen games I've played since getting my PS4 in 2014. BioWare has a lot of "polishing" left to do on this game.

I think non-human protagonists would've been more than they could handle, this time around. They had to rebuild the IP with new tech-- a new engine on new consoles. Once they have the requisite experience and confidence, I believe you'll get your alien protagonists. I actually think the theme of MEA could make this even more likely, though we'll have to wait and see. As we MW races are now collectively the "aliens", I see us drawing together in a tighter community, just as the nations of Earth did in 2149 when they realized the smallness of their differences.

[Iakus]

We were special in the sense that the other races didn't like us because of how exceedingly power-hungry and selfish we appeared to the galactic community. I do think Garrus mentions how individualistic humans tended to be as a species, sure, but let's not pretend like humanity is always presented as this great thing in ME. See: Cerberus.

Liara comments on how humans pursue goals with a determination that other races find both admirable and terrifying.  But it also makes humanity appear to be "something of a bully" in their willingness to trample anyone who gets in their way.

[The Elder King]

Humanity being special, or different from the other species, doesn't mean it's something that is necessarily negative or positive. It's just Bioware planned to do for humanity in ME.

[Beerfish]

I think this may be a case of miscommunication at work, since I don't think what you said diminishes the point I was making. I am talking about things through a more Doylist perspective, if you will. Basically:

1. Bioware's design philosophy is that they make escapist fiction, or "masturbatory fantasy indulgement," as in Weeke's quote I posted above. Those were Sawyer's words, actually, but Weekes didn't hesitate to associate them with his own work. And he is considered one of the best writers in both ME and DA by much of the fanbase.
2. If they make escapist fantasy, it follows that they're going to lay it thick, the fanservice I mean. They're more concerned with what the players will find enjoyable than with what is realistic. Again, take a look at the link I posted above.
3. A result of this is that the protagonist in Bioware games will tend to be a larger than life Mary Sue type or close enough. A different result of that design philosophy, in a science fiction setting like ME, is that humans are going to be presented as oh so awesome, because the audience is human and again, these games are designed around pandering to the audience, regardless of realism.

The only way for Bioware to do away with the Humans Are Special trope, therefore, is for them to alter their design philosophy. If they haven't done it by now I don't think they will start any time soon.

And what is really wrong with any of the above?

 

The end goal is to sell games and people buy games if they have fun.  'Fan service' is everywhere and in every genre of entertainment, including many of the 'classics' of literature, film what have you.

[Gwydden]

And what is really wrong with any of the above?

 

The end goal is to sell games and people buy games if they have fun.  'Fan service' is everywhere and in every genre of entertainment, including many of the 'classics' of literature, film what have you.

I don't remember saying there's anything wrong with it. I am here in a Bioware forum, waiting for MEA, aren't I? 

 

But I know the types of games Bioware makes. I know what to expect from them. I'm not expecting them to pull a 180 and do something entirely different to what they've always done, which I believe is a big reason why I've yet to be disappointed by anything we've heard about MEA while some others around here are brimming with negativity.

[TBSN]

another interview :

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=UyBuW9Z_yY0

 

Mass Effect: Andromeda - We Get Answers About The New Galaxy