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[Cyonan]

I'm not quite sure what you mean here.

Given that much of the plot was focused on mages versus templars along with the evils of blood magic - and the members of Hawke's family were dispensed along those very same lines - I thought it was pretty heavy-handed manipulation.

 

It's mostly that Hawke's family seems to exist for little more than to be tragedies for Hawke.

 

It's also because unlike say Mass Effect 1 which asks you to choose between two squadmates, Dragon Age 2 systematically kills off or otherwise disposes of every member of your family. Mass Effect got me to actually care about my squadmates by talking with them and going on missions with them. Dragon Age 2 starting murdering my family 5 minutes into the game when I knew their name and not much else.

 

It felt like it was more just an attempt to make me care about NPCs the player wouldn't likely care about if the game didn't link them to you by making them family.

 

Which feels weird given how well BioWare can do companions and make me care about them by simply doing what they do best, rather than trying to force it.

[In Exile]

Well, that interview pretty much dashed my hopes of there ever being a chance of being able to play as an alien protagonist. I know we won't in MEA, but Mac's words make it sound like the franchise will always be human-centric.

You mean, he's basically restated the unifying premise of the first game? ME was always pitched as being about humanity. ME2 and ME3 actually move away from the kind of human focus ME1 was marketed as having, which was all about the rise of humanity in galatic civilization. This isn't a point about the 'Humans Are Special' trope mind you - just that ME was always a series about humanity.

[BloodyMares]

ME2 and ME3 actually move away from the kind of human focus ME1 was marketed as having

I can't stop laughing.

[Iakus]

We remember them both.

The North remembers...

[In Exile]

I can't stop laughing.

Whenever you get yourself under control, you can try to recall how the games actually portrayed humanity. In ME1, humanity was special because it was awesome at everything - we were ubermensch innovators that could out perform aliens at a game they've been playing for millenia. In ME2 and ME3, humanity isn't portrayed as hypercompetent anymore - instead, humanity is special because they make the best reaper slurry. All this nonsense about genetic potential doesn't actually translate to "objectively better than the best of the other species combined", which is how ME1 plays it.

[BloodyMares]

Whenever you get yourself under control, you can try to recall how the games actually portrayed humanity. In ME1, humanity was special because it was awesome at everything - we were ubermensch innovators that could out perform aliens at a game they've been playing for millenia. In ME2 and ME3, humanity isn't portrayed as hypercompetent anymore - instead, humanity is special because they make the best reaper slurry. All this nonsense about genetic potential doesn't actually translate to "objectively better than the best of the other species combined", which is how ME1 plays it.

One word. Cerberus.

[In Exile]

One word. Cerberus.

Incompetent space Nazis? I'm not sure how pointing out the human group that fails at literally every non-Shepard endeavour is a case for humans being special. If anything, Cerberus is an argument for humans being an incompetent gaggle of idiots.

[Pasquale1234]

It's mostly that Hawke's family seems to exist for little more than to be tragedies for Hawke.
 
It's also because unlike say Mass Effect 1 which asks you to choose between two squadmates, Dragon Age 2 systematically kills off or otherwise disposes of every member of your family. Mass Effect got me to actually care about my squadmates by talking with them and going on missions with them. Dragon Age 2 starting murdering my family 5 minutes into the game when I knew their name and not much else.
 
It felt like it was more just an attempt to make me care about NPCs the player wouldn't likely care about if the game didn't link them to you by making them family.
 
Which feels weird given how well BioWare can do companions and make me care about them by simply doing what they do best, rather than trying to force it.

Okay - but I think there was more to it than just whatever dramatic value the tragedy would represent - because they were directly linked to the game's major themes.

Consider you're either playing as a mage or have this lovely, ultra-sweet BFF sister who is a mage. Either way, your father was an apostate, and unless you take her to the deep roads, Bethany willing and selflessly goes to the circle at the end of Chapter 1 to protect her family from any further involvement in hiding an apostate. In the end, supporting the templars would mean slaughtering that sister.

Regardless of Hawke's class, you came from a family fathered by an apostate that is currently harboring an apostate.

If Hawke is a mage, you have a brother with heavy rivalry who ends up joining the templars unless he's taken to the deep roads. In that case, Hawke can either be a hypocrite (an apostate mage who chooses to annul the circle) or slaughter the brother.

I don't honestly remember ever feeling so manipulated in a game.

I think what I'm trying to say here is that Hawke's family was not just there for some vanilla boo-hoo tragedy - they actively represented the 2 sides that were the major conflict in the game, and a decision the character needed to make.

[Reznore57]

Incompetent space Nazis? I'm not sure how pointing out the human group that fails at literally every non-Shepard endeavour is a case for humans being special. If anything, Cerberus is an argument for humans being an incompetent gaggle of idiots.

 

I thought the "Save Earth " in ME3 was awful and didn't make sense to be honest.Well beyond Shepard wants to save earth because he's human of course.

I still remember the painful talk on Palaven moon , "hey Turian stop defending your planet , we need an alliance coz earth needs saving for no good strategic reasons!"

[Wulfram]

ME3 was definitely the least "humans are special" of the games, though it kind of feels like there was an earlier draft that was more human focused. But all that's really left is the Citadel being taken to Earth for largely unexplored reasons, and Shepard going on about Earth even when it'd make more diplomatic sense to pitch things as "save the galaxy".

Well, there's also the war assets but they're generally stupid.

[Fogg]

The whole family thing is still pretty vague, it could be completely different. Perhaps your character ages througout the game, perhaps in ME:A II you play with the child of you character. I wouldn't bet on it, but why assume the ordinary?

[Mistic]

It felt like it was more just an attempt to make me care about NPCs the player wouldn't likely care about if the game didn't link them to you by making them family.

 

Which feels weird given how well BioWare can do companions and make me care about them by simply doing what they do best, rather than trying to force it.

 

That's my biggest worry of the "Ryder family" idea too. And it's not as if they didn't know how to do it in DAeither: the City Elf origin in DA:O basically started by meeting your father and your two cousins, and before it ended they felt more like family than the Hawkes in DA2's introduction.

 

You mean, he's basically restated the unifying premise of the first game? ME was always pitched as being about humanity. ME2 and ME3 actually move away from the kind of human focus ME1 was marketed as having, which was all about the rise of humanity in galatic civilization. This isn't a point about the 'Humans Are Special' trope mind you - just that ME was always a series about humanity.

 

True enough. But given that Bioware is telling to everyone who wants to hear it that the Andromeda adventure is a different story from the trilogy, past themes don't need to anchor the new story. If the premise was continued, it was to be expected, but not because they were required to do so by their previous setting.

 

Whenever you get yourself under control, you can try to recall how the games actually portrayed humanity. In ME1, humanity was special because it was awesome at everything - we were ubermensch innovators that could out perform aliens at a game they've been playing for millenia. In ME2 and ME3, humanity isn't portrayed as hypercompetent anymore - instead, humanity is special because they make the best reaper slurry. All this nonsense about genetic potential doesn't actually translate to "objectively better than the best of the other species combined", which is how ME1 plays it.

 

Er, no, ME2 basically portrays humanity as the Only Hope the galaxy has. We are so good at the game that a human terrorist group can single-handedly save colonies, face the Reapers' minions and succeed.

 

What it isn't portrayed as hypercompetent anymore isn't humanity, but the Alliance. There's a very important difference, and part of Cerberus' slogan. The moment human higher-ups start becoming as complacent and bureaucratic as the rest of the alien powers, only Space Jesus and those who keep alive the "ubermensch innovators" idea can save the galaxy, because the rest are useless. Then add the genetic nonsense and it's basically canonized as "we are special because the Universe says so".

 

Incompetent space Nazis? I'm not sure how pointing out the human group that fails at literally every non-Shepard endeavour is a case for humans being special. If anything, Cerberus is an argument for humans being an incompetent gaggle of idiots.

 

The Space Nazis who resurrected Shepard and helped them save the galaxy in ME2 while the rest of the alien powers and the Alliance were too useless to do anything, and who brainwashed as they were, were able to be the main enemy during the Reaper War after the Reapers themselves. If anything, it basically says that "even our terrorist groups are better and badder than yours, it's just that they are terrorists and of course they have to fail. Put them under a hero and they will be able to do things that whole galactic powers can't".

[Spectr61]

Who's worse: Casey Hudson, who co-wrote the ending and weaseled out afterwards, or Mac Walters, who also co-wrote the ending but stayed to clear his name? 

Didn't Casey have a larger role in terms of leadership?

Not surprising he "left". What is surprising is that Mac survived, and even prospered in terms of promotion from writer to development director.

The opportunity cost in terms of corporate profit due to the fan reaction to the ME3 endings is not easily quantifiable, but Google "EA market capitalization and Mass Effect 3 endings fiasco" to get can idea. Over a billion dollars. That is why it is surprising that anyone responsible is still around, never mind in charge.

Plus, does anyone think "Co-Writer, Mass Effect 3 ending" is a sparkling resume bullet in the industry?

[darkiddd]

Incompetent space Nazis? I'm not sure how pointing out the human group that fails at literally every non-Shepard endeavour is a case for humans being special. If anything, Cerberus is an argument for humans being an incompetent gaggle of idiots.

Bloddymares has a point, he said cerberus was about humanity, not about humanity's competence. Mass effect 2 and 3 became even more human centric because cerberus represented the arrogance of humanity that wants to control and make his everything, even with the presence of the reapers the subthemes cerberus represented were all over the place, especially in me3

[Malanek]

I enjoyed the family aspect in DA2. It could certainly have been less depressing and the introduction was frantic with no build up, but I still liked it. I have a suspicion, given the tone and the hints we will be inexperienced, that we may be playing the younger sibling or child this time around. I'm guessing the guy in the "Ghost Riders in the sky" trailer is your older sibling. He may go missing or might end up being the antagonist.

[Cyonan]

That's my biggest worry of the "Ryder family" idea too. And it's not as if they didn't know how to do it in DAeither: the City Elf origin in DA:O basically started by meeting your father and your two cousins, and before it ended they felt more like family than the Hawkes in DA2's introduction.

 

I think the City Elf origin could get away with it a bit more too since the game itself acknowledges that you literally just met your spouse to be. As I recall it also gives you the option to play it off as "good I get to kill people" instead of legitimately caring about these people you're supposed to be rescuing.

 

Plus if you're playing a female PC then the events are actually happening to your character which automatically make me care more, because it's my character.

[Squish]

This would actually be really interesting from a RP prespective. When I play the ME games, I always try to come up with my own personality concept for each character and then try to play the game based upon that personality. With adding family and potential drama between members, it makes the main character so mure relateable. I was acutally really excited to hear that his/her family will be in the story as well.

I do the same thing! It is an exciting concept. I'm already thinking about the possibilities...Hee c;

[Iakus]

Whenever you get yourself under control, you can try to recall how the games actually portrayed humanity. In ME1, humanity was special because it was awesome at everything - we were ubermensch innovators that could out perform aliens at a game they've been playing for millenia. In ME2 and ME3, humanity isn't portrayed as hypercompetent anymore - instead, humanity is special because they make the best reaper slurry. All this nonsense about genetic potential doesn't actually translate to "objectively better than the best of the other species combined", which is how ME1 plays it.

ME 3 didn't have a "humans are special message. In fact it was pretty misanthropic when you take the endings into consideration.

But it is "human is special". As in one human

Shepard

THE Shepard. Our lord and savior who died for the galaxy's sins

[Paridave]

ME 3 didn't have a "humans are special message. In fact it was pretty misanthropic when you take the endings into consideration.

But it is "human is special". As in one human

Shepard

THE Shepard. Our lord and savior who died for the galaxy's sins

Well... he died for somebody's sins.

[Seraphim24]

Well you know finally I think the picture is getting clear, the game will be nothing like the ME we've known and instead be like the full TR reboot where it's all about a few guys/gals struggles with confidence and extremely low self-esteem as they hack and claw their way across an alien landscape bereft of politics and intrigue so as to finally obtain this glimmer of unbeknownst phenomenon known as "friends."

 

At least Dragon Age Inquisition had like a soul this one looks like it's just going to be a broken person essentially.

[Cyonan]

Well... he died for somebody's sins.

 

Pretty sure my Shep committed a number of those sins.

[Gonder]

No problems, here! All of these points are sounding good. Don't know if I buy the "polish" story, considering they pushed their game back by several months, meaning that something is clearly not right in development right now, but, regardless, so long as Bioware aren't pushed out the door like they were with Mass Effect 3, we should end up with an amazing game (and even then, Mass Effect 3 was pretty incredible, with better looking graphics than the past 2, and some of the most epic and heart wrenching scenes we've seen thus far in the trilogy).

 

Although I still hold many fears, my hopes are currently pretty high for Mass Effect: Andromeda.

[Mikael_Sebastia]

If Ryder has family on board, then maybe Arks are generation ships. That's at least what came immediately to my mind, when I heard about family.  It's not uncommon scifi trope with centuries or millennia long exoduses. Maybe him and possibly all others except some Asaris and Krogans were born during the voyage.  Or who knows how many generations has passed during the journey.  Still I think that Bioware has alright trackrecord, when it  comes to utilizing families (even DA2, despite its many flaws), so this could be interesting, regardless of how they want to play it out.

 

Or Ryder and his family have been on cryosleep / stasispod the whole journey.  The way I see it, Bioware has a lot leeway to make this part of the story as they like, and it's still consistent with the established role. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If Ryder has family on board, then maybe Arks are generation ships. That's at least what came immediately to my mind, when I heard about family.  It's not uncommon scifi trope with centuries or millennia long exoduses. Maybe him and possibly all others except some Asaris and Krogans were born during the voyage.  Or who knows how many generations has passed during the journey.  Still I think that Bioware has alright trackrecord, when it  comes to utilizing families (even DA2, despite its many flaws), so this could be interesting, regardless of how they want to play it out.

 

Or Ryder and his family have been on cryosleep / stasispod the whole journey.  The way I see it, Bioware has a lot leeway to make this part of the story as they like, and it's still consistent with the established role. 

Bioware already confirmed the use of stasis pods for the journey. We even see the protagonist wake up in one in the trailer. 

[In Exile]

Er, no, ME2 basically portrays humanity as the Only Hope the galaxy has. We are so good at the game that a human terrorist group can single-handedly save colonies, face the Reapers' minions and succeed.

 

Cerberus is an incompetent gaggle of failures. Literally, everything they do apart from (i) building the Normandy v. 2; (ii) creating EDI; and (iii) reviving Shepard is a total failure. They're such failures, actually, that you stop the Collectors literally without them, because they're such dead weight they can all get kidnapped without even slightly affecting you (thanks to, again EDI). 

 

The most competent part of the Normandy that isn't (a) Shepard, ( Shepard's squad of elite non-humans, or © Joker, is EDI, the former mostly Reaper AI. 

 

Everything Cerberus does is a total failure that Shepard has to clean up. Their actual crew is basically useless filler, rendered redundant by EDI. And EDI isn't really a human achievement - it's a synthesis of Reaper technology and a failed human AI that Shepard - again, the ubermensch saviour - murdered. 

 

And look at Shepard's squad - apart from Miranda and Jacob, it's all non-Cerberus humans or aliens. And even the absolute best humans are not as good as the random aliens. Our brilliant scientist is Mordin, a Salarian. The most powerful human biotic in existence - by far - Jack is basically equal to a random Asari (because, lore-wise, there's nothing unique about Samara). The other hypercable tech genius is the Quarian - Tali.

 

Miranda, the super-human genius designed to be better than humans at everything, is basically as good as Garrus, a highly capable but otherwise not particularly distinctive Turian. 

 

"Humans" don't do jack **** in ME2. Shepard the ubersmench does, but the elite carde of humans he has are barely as good as the grab-bag aliens with the team. 

 

What it isn't portrayed as hypercompetent anymore isn't humanity, but the Alliance. There's a very important difference, and part of Cerberus' slogan. The moment human higher-ups start becoming as complacent and bureaucratic as the rest of the alien powers, only Space Jesus and those who keep alive the "ubermensch innovators" idea can save the galaxy, because the rest are useless. Then add the genetic nonsense and it's basically canonized as "we are special because the Universe says so". 

 

The Space Nazis who resurrected Shepard and helped them save the galaxy in ME2 while the rest of the alien powers and the Alliance were too useless to do anything, and who brainwashed as they were, were able to be the main enemy during the Reaper War after the Reapers themselves. If anything, it basically says that "even our terrorist groups are better and badder than yours, it's just that they are terrorists and of course they have to fail. Put them under a hero and they will be able to do things that whole galactic powers can't".

 

 

But Cerberus is totally incompetent. A huge part of the game is about their complete failure - Overlord or Jack's backstory come to mind - and even their supposed "achievements" (like the Derelict Reaper) only play out because Shepard is superhuman and is involved. 

 

Cerberus fails far more fundamentally and comically than the Alliance. The worst you can pin on the Alliance is that they don't believe Shepard's obviously insane rambling, which despite how hard the story wants to tell us is an issue, really isn't all that strange of a reaction. And that's not even all of the Alliance - Councillor Anderson tries to do at least as much as TIM, and the heroic mission in Arrival that ends up buying 6 months to find the Crucible   all happens out of a favour for Hackett. 

 

The Space Nazis don't save the galaxy - Shepard does. The Cerberus Crew with you - apart from bullet sponge Jacob and Miranda - are completely useless and rendered redundant by EDI. Cerberus itself, as an organization, doesn't do much of anything apart from give you intelligence and a bunch of resumes. 

And even Normandy v. 2 is kind of a piece of **** without all of the alien innovations that get added to it. 

 

As for ME3, that's not really a human group anymore. They're a repurposed Reaper attack team, and even racist imperialist Prothean Jim tells you they dealt with the same crap in their cycle. 

Cerberus is one of the biggest failures we see in the series. It's only the arble-garble political logic of the writers, and this idea that rich industrialist love to finance secret mad science out of their personal wealth, that even allows Cerberus to exist.