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Mac Walters came by and now we know this (or: all the E3 info)


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#626
Drone223

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Again, scientific accuracy matters less than consistency.  AS long as it's inaccurate in an inconsistent manner, there's room for the suspension of disbelief.

 

I can accept jump gates that somehow transport people through hyperspace as long as it's done in a consistent manner.  Regardless of how little it makes sense scientifically.  But if it starts, oh, allowing for time travel, or access to parallel universes because Rule of Cool, we have a problem.

Indeed, fictional worlds still need to run on their own internal logic the lore shouldn't just change to suit the needs of the story.


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#627
AlanC9

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I can accept jump gates that somehow transport people through hyperspace as long as it's done in a consistent manner.  Regardless of how little it makes sense scientifically.  But if it starts, oh, allowing for time travel, or access to parallel universes because Rule of Cool, we have a problem.


Like Stargate?

#628
BloodyMares

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And yeah, I'd like to have an explanation on how they managed to get to Andromeda with no need to discharge their drive core. If what Mac Walters let slip by in a recent interview is real, the journey took 600 years. That's actually somewhat consistent with the speed of FTL as described in the original trilogy. But where did they discharge their cores, is a question that kinda needs answering IMO. It's a rule of the setting. Ignoring it now isn't a great idea, no more than it would make sense for all the mages in Dragon Ages to all be able to turn into dragons at will with no explanation given despite the fact that magic, by its very nature, is nonsensical.

Mass Effect will unlikely be details-first sci-fi again. Not with Walters in charge. Mass Effect 2 and 3 were a clear sign: lots of hand waved space magic just to invoke "the feels" from the player. The sad thing is that the emotional appeal totally worked with these games and only an ending caused the backlash because it was such an unclear mess. I expect that Mass Effect will continue in the same manner. So partially "In Exile" is right that it's kind of naive to expect that kind of consistency from an entirely different drama-first genre.
But on the other hand, Mass Effect 1 was details-first and my only hope is that new writers will return to that genre and can follow the established rules.



#629
Drakoriz

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Mass Effect will unlikely be details-first sci-fi again. Not with Walters in charge. Mass Effect 2 and 3 were a clear sign: lots of hand waved space magic just to invoke "the feels" from the player. The sad thing is that the emotional appeal totally worked with these games and only an ending caused the backlash because it was such an unclear mess. I expect that Mass Effect will continue in the same manner. So partially "In Exile" is right that it's kind of naive to expect that kind of consistency from an entirely different drama-first genre.
But on the other hand, Mass Effect 1 was details-first and my only hope is that new writers will return to that genre and can follow the established rules.

 

sorry but even ME 1 had alot of "space magic". Sci-fi in general have alot of space magic.



#630
BloodyMares

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sorry but even ME 1 had alot of "space magic". Sci-fi in general have alot of space magic.

Completely missed my point. The fact that sci-fi has space magic doesn't matter. What matters is how they explain it through their own lore. Mass Effect 2 and 3 failed in that department miserably.



#631
Iakus

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Like Stargate?

Kinda.  Though Stargate does the courtesy of giving a (vague) explanation as to why the Stargate happened to operate in that fashion, rather than shrugging and saying "Resources!"


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#632
In Exile

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I don't think scientific impossibilities are a bad thing at all. At the end of the day, this is science fiction. Of course it's going to have nonsensical elements that just can't work in real life. Realism would mean we play as a NASA bureaucrat who tries to get another drone deployed to Mars in 10 years or something. It's just not fun. Until we actually leave our planet and/or encounter aliens (which isn't likely in the foreseeable future), any science-fiction story relies on convenient nonsense by defintion.

That said, I do think there's a difference between scientific mumbo-jumbo that was introduced early in the setting and makes some amount of sense when presented to a layman (the titular Mass Effect, for instance) and something that is just so mind-boggingly ridiculous that thinking about it for a minute makes the entire concept fall apart even with no proper scientific knowledge (such as the Synthesis beam). The first preserves the suspension of disbelief. The latter does not.

In a universe with magic, this means that a mage throwing a fireball is OK if it was explained it's a common magic power, but introducing a character that can make the entire planet love each other with a snap of their finger with no explanantion is just cheap. Neither is more realistic than the other, yet the audience can learn to accept the fireballs, but probably not the wave of instant peace and love.

So yeah, I disagree with In Exile that it's all just space magic nonsense with no distinction. Building a credible world, or at least a world with a convincing enough veneer of credibility, is important to writing science-fiction that I enjoy. For all its faults (Project Lazarus, urgh) and missed details, I thought Mass Effect did a good enough job of that until the ending made the entire thing crash down.

And yeah, I'd like to have an explanation on how they managed to get to Andromeda with no need to discharge their drive core. If what Mac Walters let slip by in a recent interview is real, the journey took 600 years. That's actually somewhat consistent with the speed of FTL as described in the original trilogy. But where did they discharge their cores, is a question that kinda needs answering IMO. It's a rule of the setting. Ignoring it now isn't a great idea, no more than it would make sense for all the mages in Dragon Ages to all be able to turn into dragons at will with no explanation given despite the fact that magic, by its very nature, is nonsensical.


There are a few points to address. First, I disagree that nonsense introducing early on is better than nonsense introducing later on just because it's easier to bake into the introduction to the setting, but I think we're all talking past each other.

Second - there are two streams here. The first is that when we ask whethere a new idea is nonsense by the standard of the setting we have to actually look at what the setting introduced. Synthesis - as discussed below - is no less stupid than anything introduced in any part of ME. So the complaint that it "violates" the rules of the setting is misplaced - the setting always had such ridiculous ideas.

The second stream is actually about internal consistency. But that's really up for debate. Take thermal clips - this ridiculous idea has an in story justification that's no less stupid than many of the other ideas in ME1.

When I'm talking about ME using nonsense, I mean that the series has established a pretty flagrant disregard for how scientific progress actually works and the rules of their setting are very fluid.

This drive core nonsense is not an argument about internal consistency - it's an argument about science. If driven cores suddenly didn't require discharges - that would be a bald retcon. But we can have actual justifications - like the ridiculous thermal clips. That has an in-setting justification (for a gameplay mechanic).

I don't think Synthesis is actually an issue at all. Because it's no less mind numbingly stupid that psychic plants, psychic blue space babes, and gravity superpowers.

Let's use your magic example. Why would having such awesome magical power at all not be consistent with the setting? Are nuclear weapons "lore" breaking because they were a hitherto unknown way of waging war with awesome destructive power until we invented them?

All that you're saying is that the setting has to offer some thin explanation for why something is happen -but settings often to that part. Again, thermal clips.

The debate isn't really about consistency - it's about what people what the setting to look like, with things like "consistency" being silly appeals to justify their real position, which is that they simply don't like the change.

When I bring up the stupid nonsense and ignorance of science in ME1, I don't mean it as an indictment of the series as much as an illustration that the series IS being consistent when it introduces an idea that (1) ignores how scientific developmentb works (2) would be comically uneconomical and a misapplication of the technology if it did exist and (3) would raise all sorts of questions about why it wasn't used before. That's all this driven core discharge stuff boils down to - and it's a complaint about science because it's really an argument that the Citadel races could not actually develop this tech.

#633
In Exile

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Again, scientific accuracy matters less than consistency. AS long as it's inaccurate in a consistent manner, there's room for the suspension of disbelief.

I can accept jump gates that somehow transport people through hyperspace as long as it's done in a consistent manner. Regardless of how little it makes sense scientifically. But if it starts, oh, allowing for time travel, or access to parallel universes because Rule of Cool, we have a problem.

That's not what you said before. You harp constantly on this drive core discharge point. But the solution is simple: Insert A. Name, random scientist extraordinaire, developed a dischargeless core.

More to the point - time travel and parellel dimensions aren't any less stupid than magic gravity powers, psychic thousand year old blue space babes, magic psychic plants that can somehow clone people, and so on. Bioware could introduce all of these things and the setting would be no less silly.

So as I said before: there's no ground for complaint, and it's not about internal consistency.

#634
In Exile

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Completely missed my point. The fact that sci-fi has space magic doesn't matter. What matters is how they explain it through their own lore. Mass Effect 2 and 3 failed in that department miserably.


That's absurd. Inventing stupid nonsense explanations for your stupid nonsense doesn't really make it better. The gibberish they've used for why biotics have magic gravity powers or why the asari are psychic doesn't make those ideas less hokey or straight up actual magic.

#635
AlanC9

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That's not what you said before. You harp constantly on this drive core discharge point. But the solution is simple: Insert A. Name, random scientist archaeologist extraordinaire, developed  discovered a dischargeless core.


A suggestion above. It's much more Mass Effect-y to have someone find the new tech rather than invent it.
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#636
In Exile

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A suggestion above. It's much more Mass Effect-y to have someone find the new tech rather than invent it.


Very true. We wouldn't want some ingenuity here. But that said there IS precedent in ME for the ship to be a novel innovation - the Normandy itself with its stealth system that not even the Reapers used or reproduced.

#637
BloodyMares

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That's absurd. Inventing stupid nonsense explanations for your stupid nonsense doesn't really make it better. The gibberish they've used for why biotics have magic gravity powers or why the asari are psychic doesn't make those ideas less hokey or straight up actual magic.

How much are you familiar with science fiction? Do you know what techno babble is for?



#638
In Exile

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How much are you familiar with science fiction? Do you know what techno babble is for?


Yeah. But I don't think techno babble is really that missing essential ingredient to take your ridiculous space magic idea and make it better. I prefer my sci fi to approach space magic like B5 - just avoid talking about it. We don't talk about our ACTUAL science all the time, anyway. No one really gets into the nitty gritty of computer engineering when using word.

#639
Almostfaceman

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That's absurd. Inventing stupid nonsense explanations for your stupid nonsense doesn't really make it better. The gibberish they've used for why biotics have magic gravity powers or why the asari are psychic doesn't make those ideas less hokey or straight up actual magic.

 

The point isn't hokiness, the point is consistency. is the author (or authors) paying attention to their story? So, if the devs come up with a dischargless drive in the game, that will satisfy the consistency, because they acknowledge the nonsense they established in the first place. 

 

It's like this.

 

George hit Mary in the head with a sword. Then George put down the hammer and wept for Sue. 

 

Or

 

George hit Mary in the head with a lightsaber. Then George put down Excalibur and wept for Sue.

 

I added the second set of sentences to add the nonsense - lightsabers and Excalibur can't exist. But both sets of sentences show what's probably bugging people. The author, in these examples, is clearly not paying attention to what they establish in the first sentence. 


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#640
AlanC9

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Wait.. if we're all admitting that it's just technobabble, what's the substance of the dispute?

#641
In Exile

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The point isn't hokiness, the point is consistency. is the author (or authors) paying attention to their story? So, if the devs come up with a dischargless drive in the game, that will satisfy the consistency, because they acknowledge the nonsense they established in the first place.

It's like this.

George hit Mary in the head with a sword. Then George put down the hammer and wept for Sue.

Or

George hit Mary in the head with a lightsaber. Then George put down Excalibur and wept for Sue.

I added the second set of sentences to add the nonsense - lightsabers and Excalibur can't exist. But both sets of sentences show what's probably bugging people. The author, in these examples, is clearly not paying attention to what they establish in the first sentence.


Why can't lightsabers and swords exist? In KotOR they did. They were made out of some special anti lightsaber metal. I know what you're going for here - you can't mix Arthurian myth with Star Wars - but I don't even buy that point, since by your own admission a sufficiently hokey explanation that's baked into the setting would make it work.

But more than that, you're wrong about consistency. And you're wrong because this kind of consistency that's universally agreeable to everyone is impossible. We can't achieve it with anything - not even actual rules (read: laws) designed to be internally consistent. Because whether a fact is consistent with a rule isn't so easy to determine.

So let's say a writer invents incredibly sophisticated technobabble rules. This is dumb because it just ends up hamstringing you later on and all the stuff you make up is nonsense anyway, but you come up with a bunch of rules. Whether some future fact is consistent with your nonsense is still up for debate.

Let's take the Asari psychic powers as an example. Let's say ME4 has Asari forcibly interrogate someone and "rip" knowledge from their minds. Is this a violation of the lore? Is this inconsistent? It's not something we could actually universally establish.

#642
Almostfaceman

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Why can't lightsabers and swords exist? In KotOR they did. They were made out of some special anti lightsaber metal. I know what you're going for here - you can't mix Arthurian myth with Star Wars - but I don't even buy that point, since by your own admission a sufficiently hokey explanation that's baked into the setting would make it work.

But more than that, you're wrong about consistency. And you're wrong because this kind of consistency that's universally agreeable to everyone is impossible. We can't achieve it with anything - not even actual rules (read: laws) designed to be internally consistent. Because whether a fact is consistent with a rule isn't so easy to determine.

So let's say a writer invents incredibly sophisticated technobabble rules. This is dumb because it just ends up hamstringing you later on and all the stuff you make up is nonsense anyway, but you come up with a bunch of rules. Whether some future fact is consistent with your nonsense is still up for debate.

Let's take the Asari psychic powers as an example. Let's say ME4 has Asari forcibly interrogate someone and "rip" knowledge from their minds. Is this a violation of the lore? Is this inconsistent? It's not something we could actually universally establish.

 

No, I'm not wrong. Once again, all the author has to prove is that they're paying attention to their story. With your Asari example, Bioware has actually set it up that something like that could happen - the Ardat Yakshi and Liara looking into Shep's mind in ME1. The trick is to be careful with what you specifically rule out. Like the discharge problem with the ftl drives... people like Iakus are probably hoping that the devs have paid enough attention to the story that they'll address that problem with the next game. If they ignore it, it hurts immersion into a different universe. It leaves the impression the authors don't really care about their story. 

 

We can just agree to disagree. 



#643
Arcian

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Why can't lightsabers and swords exist? In KotOR they did.

KotOR is space fantasy, not sci-fi.


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#644
AlanC9

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I'm pretty sure In Exile's saying that ME is space fantasy too.



#645
In Exile

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No, I'm not wrong. Once again, all the author has to prove is that they're paying attention to their story. With your Asari example, Bioware has actually set it up that something like that could happen - the Ardat Yakshi and Liara looking into Shep's mind in ME1. The trick is to be careful with what you specifically rule out. Like the discharge problem with the ftl drives... people like Iakus are probably hoping that the devs have paid enough attention to the story that they'll address that problem with the next game. If they ignore it, it hurts immersion into a different universe. It leaves the impression the authors don't really care about their story.

We can just agree to disagree.

No. People like Iakus are harping about whatever they can latch on to so that they can express their distaste. If Bioware invents some explanation - an archeologist or scientist like I or AlanC9 suggests - you'll just get some other technobabble complaint.

And you've missed the point entirely about the asari. There's nothing RIGHT now in the lore to say they can do it. If they CAN do it, you could as easily argue it's totally inconsistent with the lore - it's never been done before, asari mental invasions would be a big deal politically and socially, it would mean entirely different approaches to crime, it's not actually consistent with the kind of light reading we see Liara do (seeing a vision consensually vs. ripping information out of an unwilling host, and so on). The AY do something very different.

The point is that this debate isn't about consistency or the lore - it's about people's views on how the setting should develop, and then back and forth appeals to ostensibly neutral standards to prove their subjective taste is right.

#646
The Elder King

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KotOR is space fantasy, not sci-fi.

 I would say ME is in the same spot of KOTOR, no matter the term Bioware uses to advertise the IP.



#647
In Exile

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I'm pretty sure In Exile's saying that ME is space fantasy too.


It's the spiritual successor to KotOR after all. And heavily influenced by e.g. B5, which was totally space fantasy.

#648
Almostfaceman

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The point is that this debate isn't about consistency or the lore - it's about people's views on how the setting should develop, and then back and forth appeals to ostensibly neutral standards to prove their subjective taste is right.

 

Nah, I don't think so. Bioware has paid poor attention to their consistency in the past. Not just the direction of their story, their consistency. The Cerberus/Sole Survivor background problem comes immediately to mind as just one example. 

 

People just want the consistency to get better. That's what I take from this exchange. 

 

Are there people who will complain about everything? Yes. But consistency is something the author can do something about. 


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#649
In Exile

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Nah, I don't think so. Bioware has paid poor attention to their consistency in the past. Not just the direction of their story, their consistency. The Cerberus/Sole Survivor background problem comes immediately to mind as just one example.

People just want the consistency to get better. That's what I take from this exchange.

Are there people who will complain about everything? Yes. But consistency is something the author can do something about.


The Cerberus point is totally different. It's different because it has nothing to do with even basic techno babble, and just is directly tied to crap writing. It's not a matter of "consistency" because the game does acknowledge it - it just handwaves it away in a stupid way to keep you on the railroad.

#650
Mistic

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But more than that, you're wrong about consistency. And you're wrong because this kind of consistency that's universally agreeable to everyone is impossible. We can't achieve it with anything - not even actual rules (read: laws) designed to be internally consistent. Because whether a fact is consistent with a rule isn't so easy to determine.

So let's say a writer invents incredibly sophisticated technobabble rules. This is dumb because it just ends up hamstringing you later on and all the stuff you make up is nonsense anyway, but you come up with a bunch of rules. Whether some future fact is consistent with your nonsense is still up for debate.

 

Why should lack of universal agreement be the problem? Characterization is also an equally subjective matter, that not everyone agrees on, and not even writers can achieve a perfectly consistent and complex character profile for their own creatures.

 

Let's say that we met Tali in ME1. For what she says, we understand she has no love for the geth. So when we have a geth companion in ME2, it's reasonable to guess that she won't have a good opinion of them. Maybe through some writerbabble (basically, the story itself) reasons appear to justify a change in the situation. However, if she suddenly invited Legion for a drink, everyone could call it b*******.

 

Geth, quarians, Tali and her feelings are as fake and made-up as the rest of the ME setting, and the writers at the beginning could have done whatever they wanted with them. They could have said that geth are big cats, quarians big pink robots, and that they have always been BFFs, for all we care. But they didn't. So we have to judge the consistency afterwards, not beforehand.

 

The point is that this debate isn't about consistency or the lore - it's about people's views on how the setting should develop, and then back and forth appeals to ostensibly neutral standards to prove their subjective taste is right.

 

Agreed, but mind you, you are doing exactly the same ;)