80 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

While we don't know the full extent of what tearing down the Veil means or if the writers are even willing to go there, what would it mean for there to be no "normals" in Thedas? From a meta perspective wouldn't this mean the dissolution of classes as we know them?

Putting aside whether it's right or wrong to help/hinder Solas, because this isn't about in-universe justification, would we go full-on D&D and have Arcane Archers roaming around..?

FWIW, my first instinct is that this isn't going to happen... OR if it does, it'll be at the end of the Dragon Age (the literal Age and the series), and the new post-Veil magical world will be the setting for a new Age/series. But I'm curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

I'd be a sad panda if I lost my rogues and warriors, so I wouldn't be psyched about it unless it was part of the end of the series or part of a whole new itineration of the franchise (that takes place during the much-prophesied Nug Age or something).

[thats1evildude]

Solas' plan isn't just "no normals." It's "no one but elves."

 

In any case, I'm not 100 per cent certain his plan hinges on tearing down the Veil anymore. That might have only been possible with the Orb and the Mark, and now he has neither.

[Abyss108]

Solas' plan isn't just "no normals." It's "no one but elves."

 

In any case, I'm not 100 per cent certain his plan hinges on tearing down the Veil anymore. That might have only been possible with the Orb and the Mark, and now he has neither.

 

Where is this from? He always says he is doing it to save "his people", but he doesn't class elves as his people, tells an Elvhen Inquisitor that his/her people will die, and says he identifies more simply with "mages".

[Jedi Master of Orion]

"His people" are the Ancient Elves. 

[thats1evildude]

Ninja'd 

 

In any case, I have a feeling that his grand scheme ...

 

Spoiler

... is to unleash the Evanuris.

 

This would certainly result in his own destruction ("I walk the Dinan'shiral") and very likely the destruction of all modern civilization. A pantheon of angry, all-powerful sorceror-kings suddenly unleashed on a world that no longer worships them? I doubt centuries of imprisonment has made them any more well-behaved.

[vertigomez]

Solas' plan isn't just "no normals." It's "no one but elves."

In any case, I'm not 100 per cent certain his plan hinges on tearing down the Veil anymore. That might have only been possible with the Orb and the Mark, and now he has neither.

That too, in which case it would be... no class selection and no race selection. Doesn't he say that the Orb was just one foci, suggesting that there are possibly more in existence?

In any case, it's more of a gameplay perspective I'm aiming for because I'm trying to wrap my head around how exactly "magic for everyone!" would work. Even if the only everyones are ancient elves.

[thats1evildude]

 Doesn't he say that the Orb was just one foci, suggesting that there are possibly more in existence?

 

I don't recall him saying that. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

[Nimlowyn]

I don't recall him saying that. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

In Solas' conversation with an elven Inquisitor after the attack on Haven, he explains what the orb is in a manner that makes plain there is more than one. "The ancient elves used them as foci to communicate with their gods" something like that. 

[veeia]

Hrm, Solas indicates that magic works differently for elves, doesn't seem concerned with the relationship between dwarves and magic, and is very vague about what will happen. Chaos & ruin, yeah, but why?  So honestly all kinds of possibilities will work.

 

I have my doubts about them making a huge status quo change like him succeeding and it being irreversible, but even if they did do that, I think you would still have rogues & warriors. It doesn't seem like having the Veil torn down would make everyone into a powerful mage, just that all (or maybe just most, or maybe just elves) would have access to it? I don't know.

 

But  to answer your question, it's possible that while everyone has access to magic, not everyone has the skill required to really use it, or they choose develop other talents instead. So I don't know if from a gameplay perspective if it would change class selection. Perhaps the naming of classes, but I imagine if there was strong magical abilities for all possible player characters, you'd have a class division by things like if they are devoted to physical ability augmented by magic (warrior), stealth augmented by magic (rogue) or a more "pure" mage.

 

There are several rogue + warrior abilities already existing that test the limits of "not magic" anyway (in that they are so advanced or not that plausible for someone who isn't augented in some way to do), so it wouldn't even have to be that huge of a shift in terms of gameplay, just a different lore reason for them.

[vertigomez]

veeia, that would make sense to me... except I thought part of the struggle that mages face is that they have to develop the skill to control their magic and that they can't afford to just ignore it, or else they end up like Connor or Feynriel. Now, that could be a whole different ball game with no Veil (and maybe fewer angreh demons trying to possess their way into life), but it's just a thought.

But I can kinda see the augmented versus focused mage delineation for classes!

I don't recall him saying that. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

In Solas' conversation with an elven Inquisitor after the attack on Haven, he explains what the orb is in a manner that makes plain there is more than one. "The ancient elves used them as foci to communicate with their gods" something like that.

What she said.

[Xerrai]

Well assuming we are allowed to tear down the veil next game and other races are allowed to live and thousands of years under the veil hasn't really changed mortals biological predisposition to attaining magic as per the environment dictates....

Elves are the only race that are supposedly predisposed to naturally possessing magic in a veil less world. Dwarves presumably could only use magic if they were connected to the Titans (and this may be proven untrue). Humans and qunari....idk.

Really hard to say. A world without a veil is really foreign to us--it could host spirits and floating rivers. Palaces of crystal and beings as large as mountains. I can't safely say how everything will be affected.

[straykat]

I kind of thought so. Some lame Synthesis meets Dragon Age thing....is how I picture it. Where everyone becomes a hybrid. Where reality itself barely has any meaning anymore.

[veeia]

That's true. I do think it's safe to say that both the player and the people in the world are limited in their understanding of how magic works and how possession can be prevented or not, so who knows how it would work in such a world. My assumption is that its less of a concern, but that's just an assumption. I'd guess that since mages in Thedas are othered and mostly seen through an Andrastrian lens, probably less experimentation is done about how to deal with them because they favor containing them. Merrill + other Dalish characters seem to support that view, although the game hasn't really pointed to any strong evidence of it being true. (Probably partially because having a solution to the "mage problem" would make a lot of the conflicts go away) Solas is our main window into that other kind of world, and unfortunately he's not very concerned with practical matters nor does he want to tip his hand too much, so he doesn't give us a lot of insight . Too many unknowns, tbh. Fun to theorize about, but hard to draw any hard conclusions.

 

I don't know if they'll do that gamechanger, but I do kind of hope we will get a glimpse of what that would like like--sort of how In Hushed Whispers showed us a version of the future-- because it would be fascinating. I'm particularly interested in what it would do to the dwarves, not just because of my dwarven bias lmao, but because we really don't have an idea of what their relationship with magic was (and what they drew it from).

[veeia]

I kind of thought so. Some lame Synthesis meets Dragon Age thing....is how I picture it. Where everyone becomes a hybrid. Where reality itself barely has any meaning anymore.

 

I thought of the Synthesis ending too. Interesting that it's more perceived as the villainous move here, where in ME it seems like it's favored as the best move. I guess it's all about framing and stakes. Or maybe DA has just thought it out more.

[straykat]

I thought of the Synthesis ending too. Interesting that it's more perceived as the villainous move here, where in ME it seems like it's favored as the best move. I guess it's all about framing and stakes. Or maybe DA has just thought it out more.

 

It's villainous to me in ME too..

 

More so than Control even... because at least Control would have a potentially cool story to fight back. With Synthesis, no. 

 

But I digress

[veeia]

Oh, I quite agree.  I just mean that the game seems to frame it as a not-villainous choice, like the developers favored it and considered it the most balanced approach....or something like that. At least that's what I got from it, others may argue differently..... the ending is so botched its pretty hard to tell exactly what the heck they wanted to do there, haha.

 

So in ME, you have one person making a fundamental change to the fabric of reality that would affect everyone by eradicating differences that cause conflict and it brings peace and lets everyone live blah blah weird space magic.

in DA, you have one person who wants to make a fundamental change to the fabric of reality which would (might?) eradicate differences that cause conflict and we are driven to stop them because it's wrong and would bring chaos.

 

It's just an interesting contrast. Probably falls apart if you examine the specifics of the situations, but I much prefer DA's approach because I find the Synthesis ending creepy at best.

[nightscrawl]

It just seems like if they go this route that it will sort of turn into Witcher, where magic is blended with combat, or Skyrim with the total dissolution of classes and the player can specialize, or not, depending on their preference.

 

Aside from what it means for the gameplay, I'm not keen on the idea from a story aspect either. I like that there is this one class that has significance in the lore. In Dragon Age it means something to be a mage; it's not just about throwing fireballs.

 

My canon Inquisitor is a warrior, so I'm not just saying this in a "leave my pet class alone" way.

[straykat]

Oh, I quite agree.  I just mean that the game seems to frame it as a not-villainous choice, like the developers favored it and considered it the most balanced approach....or something like that. At least that's what I got from it, others may argue differently..... the ending is so botched its pretty hard to tell exactly what the heck they wanted to do there, haha.

 

So in ME, you have one person making a fundamental change to the fabric of reality that would affect everyone by eradicating differences that cause conflict and it brings peace and lets everyone live blah blah weird space magic.

in DA, you have one person who wants to make a fundamental change to the fabric of reality which would (might?) eradicate differences that cause conflict and we are driven to stop them because it's wrong and would bring chaos.

 

It's just an interesting contrast. Probably falls apart if you examine the specifics of the situations, but I much prefer DA's approach because I find the Synthesis ending creepy at best.

 

Yeah, they did seem to favor it... but it's a bit annoying, since Saren was for Synthesis too... and he's still kind of the flagship villain to me. It's weird how ME3 comes full circle, where Shep can do everything Saren did...down to the Geth and Krogan alliances and Beneziah's daughter....and then ultimately Synthesis. 

 

"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I don't recall him saying that. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

 

There is more than one. I assume each Evanuris had one, maybe more.

 

Spoiler

http://i206.photobuc...on Age/Orb1.jpg

[nightscrawl]

^ Geez, I kept studying that pic and thinking I was missing something because there's no dialogue. That's a great find!

 

I assume something like that was put in as a sort of Easter egg for observant players, since you'd think that most Inquisitors would be like, "OMFG ANOTHER ORB???!!!!1111ONE"

 

If that's accurate, I wonder if it means that each orb has its own unique properties? Could we just carry that one to Solas? Think of the possibilities!

[roselavellan]

It just seems like if they go this route that it will sort of turn into Witcher, where magic is blended with combat, or Skyrim with the total dissolution of classes and the player can specialize, or not, depending on their preference.

 

Aside from what it means for the gameplay, I'm not keen on the idea from a story aspect either. I like that there is this one class that has significance in the lore. In Dragon Age it means something to be a mage; it's not just about throwing fireballs.

 

My canon Inquisitor is a warrior, so I'm not just saying this in a "leave my pet class alone" way.

 

That's how I see it, too, but I think it would be a positive change. Having the freedom to use magic doesn't mean you are forced to, so the gameplay aspect need not change for those who don't want it to. And some people (like me) would probably appreciate the flexibility of blending magic with physical combat.

 

And as someone whose pet class is the mage, I think mages have been demonised for long enough. In Dragon Age, it does mean something to be a mage - but that isn't necessarily a positive thing. It means you are locked up and scrutinised for the rest of your life. So, if magic was accessible to everyone, I think Thedosian society would be a lot fairer.

 

Also, classes would still exist, I assume. So one can still be an exceptionally skilled mage/warrior/rogue if one wishes, perhaps the difference is that you would have a choice. I rather like that idea.

[Gervaise]

Solas definitely says the foci were a way of channelling the power of the gods and some were dedicated to particular members of the pantheon.   This sounds as though they may have been objects that were given to their most faithful followers to allow them to work with their superior, rather than simply belonging just to the individual Evanuris.   If that is the case, it would explain why they were not shut away with the gods and how eventually they may have fallen into the hands of the early Tevene, as Dorian says is depicted in ancient pictures.   It may be that they never fully discovered how to unlock their power, or without the god in the world they did not work.  There was a suggestion in one of the game files that the orb we think of as Fen'Harel's was also called Mythal's orb.    This would make sense, if she originally gave the orb to Fen'Harel so he could assist her in her plans and thus it still worked because she was not locked away like the others and neither was he. 

 

May be all the early Dreamers were able to do was discover knowledge of magical rituals and lore from the Foci, just as Corypheus seems to have done.   It may well be that he received the knowledge of how to perform the ritual to create the anchor and open the Fade from the orb itself.   This would have been before he unlocked its power, so it is possible the other foci might have been the same.    They could still be locked away in a vault somewhere in Tevinter, probably in Minrathous itself.    Part of the next plot could be trying to locate one of these before Solas does.   May be now he has combined power with Mythal, he would be able to utilise one even if it wasn't specifically attuned to him.

 

What he wants to do is reconnect the Fade with the Unchanging World.   This might well restore the elves to what they once were, particularly if what they were originally was spirits, because the elves have different blood to everyone else.     I don't think it would automatically render the other races able to perform magic; I think it would depend on whether they had magic in the blood already.   I have a theory that all mages probably have an elf somewhere way back in their ancestry and that is how it got into the other races, but I could be wrong about that one.

 

The thing is he said the world would burn in fiery chaos and he did not foresee the Inquisitor or their friends surviving that, no matter what their race or class.   In fact he seemed to indicate he thought he would die or be altered in some way too.     So I really don't think it would be a case of transforming everyone into mages and the world lives happily ever after, even without the added complication of releasing the Evanuris.   

 

Besides, even if everyone was safely transformed, we know from the history of the elves that you still have social rank according to the power you wield, so it would not make everyone equal.   Just as there are mages of differing power in the current Thedas, there were mages of differing power back in the time of the Evanuris.   They also had different classes of warriors (not all were known as arcane), and likely different classes of what we would think of as rogues    If everyone is effectively a mage, it is no longer something exotic and dangerous that only a few people can do and thus marks them out as different, and, possibly, in their eyes as superior.   It is just something that augments your other skills.   In some ways it might make the other classes more significant as that would be what distinguishes one person from another.  This may also be why the Creators were remembered for the skills they endowed on their followers rather than their magic and their own prowess.   So Andruil was a powerful mage god but she is remembered as a huntress, skilled with bow and spear.

[Medhia_Nox]

While we don't know the full extent of what tearing down the Veil means or if the writers are even willing to go there, what would it mean for there to be no "normals" in Thedas? From a meta perspective wouldn't this mean the dissolution of classes as we know them?

Putting aside whether it's right or wrong to help/hinder Solas, because this isn't about in-universe justification, would we go full-on D&D and have Arcane Archers roaming around..?

FWIW, my first instinct is that this isn't going to happen... OR if it does, it'll be at the end of the Dragon Age (the literal Age and the series), and the new post-Veil magical world will be the setting for a new Age/series. But I'm curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

I'd be a sad panda if I lost my rogues and warriors, so I wouldn't be psyched about it unless it was part of the end of the series or part of a whole new itineration of the franchise (that takes place during the much-prophesied Nug Age or something).

 

We have no real indication that the Veil coming down will make people mages.

 

Even with the Breach - there would be an increase in mage births if that's the case (it would be our first indicator if that's how things would happen if the Veil collapsed).

 

On a world level - I hope not.  Adding more magic to the glut will chase me away for good.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

We have no real indication that the Veil coming down will make people mages.

 

Even with the Breach - there would be an increase in mage births if that's the case (it would be our first indicator if that's how things would happen if the Veil collapsed).

 

On a world level - I hope not.  Adding more magic to the glut will chase me away for good.

Would we expect to know yet if the Breach had led to more mages being born? Mages don't come into their powers immediately.

[Sah291]

We have no real indication that the Veil coming down will make people mages.
 
Even with the Breach - there would be an increase in mage births if that's the case (it would be our first indicator if that's how things would happen if the Veil collapsed).
 
On a world level - I hope not.  Adding more magic to the glut will chase me away for good.

Their numbers were increasing. Well, at least in Kirkwall around DA2 time frame. But the Veil was supposedly weak there, so.

http://dragonage.wik.../Alrik's_Papers

Anyway, I think it would be more like they'd have the potential. They would probably still need to actually train, or want to, but the ability might come more naturally.

That's assuming any non elves or non mages survive in the first place, though. We just don't know.

I don't think this will actually happen gameplay wise, however. Dropping the Veil might change the world state too much, so I have a feeling Solas' plan will be successfully foiled anyhow.