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[thats1evildude]

The Primeval Thaig was likely corrupted after the Magisters returned from the Black City.

 

The thaig predated the current dwarven civilization and thus the Tevinter Imperium, so red lyrium very likely existed before the magisters entered the Fade.

[dawnstone]

Wait, I thought there were lore entries that suggested the Darkspawn may have existed before the Blights?

Are you referring to this one?

 

Old Elven Writing:

 

"This elven writing found in the Arbor Wilds is so old as to be incomprehensible.

There are whispers from the Well of Sorrows. It's impossible to understand the entire text, but certain parts suddenly reveal a shadow of their original meaning.

"In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing."

For one moment there is a vivid image of two overlapping spheres; unknown flowers bloom inside their centers. Then it fades."

http://dragonage.wik...d_Elven_Writing

 

I think this is either how the dwarves were before they were cut off from their Titans (hive-minded and lacking free will), or it was the way the elves thought the dwarves were before they were cut off from their Titans. They sound like they could be similar to Darkspawn, but were perhaps more similar to the Sha-Brytol.

[thats1evildude]

I think the implication is that all dwarves were once like the Sha-Brytol.

[dawnstone]

I think the implication is that all dwarves were once like the Sha-Brytol.

After her "conversion" it seemed to me that Valta regarded the Sha-Brytol as being parasitic to the Titan, in the codex that has one of her journal pages, as they live off of it and she says it doesn't need them. She seems to still have a will of her own though, despite her newfound connection to the Titan.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

Are you referring to this one?

Old Elven Writing:

"This elven writing found in the Arbor Wilds is so old as to be incomprehensible.
There are whispers from the Well of Sorrows. It's impossible to understand the entire text, but certain parts suddenly reveal a shadow of their original meaning.
"In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing."
For one moment there is a vivid image of two overlapping spheres; unknown flowers bloom inside their centers. Then it fades."
http://dragonage.wik...d_Elven_Writing

I think this is either how the dwarves were before they were cut off from their Titans (hive-minded and lacking free will), or it was the way the elves thought the dwarves were before they were cut off from their Titans. They sound like they could be similar to Darkspawn, but were perhaps more similar to the Sha-Brytol.

No. Thank you for trying though.

Shoot, I can't remember where it was. It might even be in WoT2. My memory is crap. I will try to remember, or maybe I will get lucky and someone else will remember.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

I've heard other people say that, but I've never seen any actual evidence to back it up.
There's some indication that the Blight corruption may have always existed - the Primeval Thaig was impossibly old - but the first canonical darkspawn were the seven magisters.

I do have a quote from Corypheus that seems to pertains to this, though it's not the reference I'm thinking of:

"Did the others never return from the Black City? There is no record even of our names! We are vilified by legend. They spit on our deeds and claim *we* brought the darkness into the world. We *discovered* the darkness. We claimed it as our own, let it permeate our being. If the others have not returned, they are lost. I am alone in my glory."

Pretty sure the "darkness" he is referring to is the Blight. Yeah, so the Blight existed before, but you're probably right about the Darkspawn. But I still remember there being some reference about dwarves fighting Darkspawn even before the Blight, but I suppose they may have been fighting Sha-Brytol.

[PapaCharlie9]

My take is that yes, for some period of time during DA4, all dreamers, from cobblers to kings, will have access to Fade magic. It might be a trial run for Solas, that the player thwarts, or it might be the whole thing.

But you needn't worry about magical rogues or wizardly warriors messing up classes and specs, because about 48 hours after the Veil comes down, everyone will be dead. Think of all the old scores that are going to get settled when the oppressed can throw fireballs at their oppressors. If "degenerate" modern-day elves have a slight edge in using the Fade, look out humans!

So everyone will be dead, unless the player succeeds.

Solas expresses sadness and guilt over the calamity that he anticipates when he tears down the Veil. Everyone seems to assume that the mass extinction will be some big bang in taking down the Veil itself, but I don't think so. I think most of the collateral damage will come from muggles using magic for the firs time.

Assuming that's true, and assuming that the complete destruction of the Veil can't be stopped, the only reasonable conclusion, the only victory condition that makes sense for the player, is to restore the Veil, or something like it. So, rogues and warriors go back to being muggles.

Honestly, that story just writes itself.

[Ranadiel Marius]

No. Thank you for trying though.

Shoot, I can't remember where it was. It might even be in WoT2. My memory is crap. I will try to remember, or maybe I will get lucky and someone else will remember.

The "strongest" evidence for Darkspawn predating the Sidreal Magisters that I can recall is that there is a carving or painting in the Temple of Mythal of Elvhes fighting an army consisting of corrupted looking Elvhes including some which are riding skeletal halla. When you walk by it, your companions will note that they look like Darkspawn.

[Dai Grepher]

The thaig predated the current dwarven civilization and thus the Tevinter Imperium, so red lyrium very likely existed before the magisters entered the Fade.

Yeah, the thaig does, but that doesn't mean it was tainted from the beginning. It was probably a normal thaig with normal lyrium until the Magisters returned from the Black City, discovered the thaig, and corrupted it while searching for the old gods.

[Big I]

But you needn't worry about magical rogues or wizardly warriors messing up classes and specs, because about 48 hours after the Veil comes down, everyone will be dead. Think of all the old scores that are going to get settled when the oppressed can throw fireballs at their oppressors.

 

That's not what will destroy the world. It'll be the abominations.

 

If you take Aveline with you into the Fade with you in DA2, and she betrays you, in the aftermath conversation she is visibly shaken at the idea that that's the sort of temptation mages have to deal with all the time. She wonders whether mages will always fall to possession, or whether they have some sort of superhuman willpower.

 

So if, overnight and with no warning, all non-mages suddenly become mages, they'll have to deal with demons. Mages, whether Circle or apostate, train their whole lives to do that, and not all of them succeed. Some poor bastard being visited by a Desire demon that looks like his dead wife, or mother, or sister? Some desparate mother who wants the power to save her children from illness? They wouldn't have a chance.

[TheBlackAdder13]

I'd actually like if they went this route after DA 4, solely from a game play perspective. Personally I prefer the idea of a game where there are no classes and you construct your PC by selecting abilities, skills, etc throughout the game. It'd also be pretty cool to play hybrid warrior-mages, rogue-mages, warrior-rogues, warrior-rogue-mages, etc. Plus the lore implications would be fascinating. 

 

Oh and also dwarf mages. Yes please. 

[TheBlackAdder13]

Yeah, the thaig does, but that doesn't mean it was tainted from the beginning. It was probably a normal thaig with normal lyrium until the Magisters returned from the Black City, discovered the thaig, and corrupted it while searching for the old gods.

That goes against the lore we find in DA 2 though. The codex entries indicate that the King left and returned with a staff before the thaig vanished (presumably turning into the rock spirits and what not). 

[Aulis Vaara]

Yeah, the thaig does, but that doesn't mean it was tainted from the beginning. It was probably a normal thaig with normal lyrium until the Magisters returned from the Black City, discovered the thaig, and corrupted it while searching for the old gods.

That's not how tainting Lyrium works. Corypheus explicitly needed to find Red Lyrium to have access to it, he didn't just corrupt a bunch.

If the Thaig was corrupted afterward, it was either the location where the Magisters entered the Black City or where they exited it. This is consistent with the corrupted lyrium beneath the Temple Of Sacred Ashes, which was corrupted when Corypheus tried to make a new breach into the Black City.

That goes against the lore we find in DA 2 though. The codex entries indicate that the King left and returned with a staff before the thaig vanished (presumably turning into the rock spirits and what not).

Sorry, but how does this contradict anything?

[Ranadiel Marius]

That's not what will destroy the world. It'll be the abominations.

If you take Aveline with you into the Fade with you in DA2, and she betrays you, in the aftermath conversation she is visibly shaken at the idea that that's the sort of temptation mages have to deal with all the time. She wonders whether mages will always fall to possession, or whether they have some sort of superhuman willpower.

So if, overnight and with no warning, all non-mages suddenly become mages, they'll have to deal with demons. Mages, whether Circle or apostate, train their whole lives to do that, and not all of them succeed. Some poor bastard being visited by a Desire demon that looks like his dead wife, or mother, or sister? Some desparate mother who wants the power to save her children from illness? They wouldn't have a chance.

Thing is that without the Veil, demons would have less incentive to possess mages. They possess people to experience the Unchanging World. They prefer mages because mages can shift the world the way a spirit can shift the Fade. Without the Veil, they can enter the Unchanging World freely and shift it to some extent on their own.

[Squinterific]

If the Veil is removed, we can only assume that all the stuff that's in the Fade would spill into the "real" world. That is all the spirits, demons and the bizarre physics would manifest into our world. Its safe to assume it would change the face of the world, but it doesn't necessarily mean all non magical creatures would die. We've seen before that non-magical beings can physically walk into the Fade, so its no clear why non-magical humans or dwarves would need to die.

[PapaCharlie9]

That's not what will destroy the world. It'll be the abominations.

 
Maybe not ...
 

Thing is that without the Veil, demons would have less incentive to possess mages. They possess people to experience the Unchanging World. They prefer mages because mages can shift the world the way a spirit can shift the Fade. Without the Veil, they can enter the Unchanging World freely and shift it to some extent on their own.

^This. I believe the concepts of "abomination" and "demon" will have no meaning in a world with no Veil. You can read that conclusion into a lot of what Solas says. His perspective is of the pre-Veil world, so when he objects to all the FUD around "demons", maybe it's because no such things exist without the Veil?
 

If the Veil is removed, we can only assume that all the stuff that's in the Fade would spill into the "real" world. That is all the spirits, demons and the bizarre physics would manifest into our world.

I think Solas would argue that the "bizarre physics" is normal and what the world is like now with the Veil is bizarre. It's all about context.

Look, I know that just about every quest in the Fade has shown us demons in the game, from DAO's mage origin to Abyss in DAI, but think about how conflicted that is. All of the other lore says that demons are the manifestation of spirits in the non-Fade, ordinary, post-Veil world. There shouldn't be demons in the Fade.

In each case, there's a bit of contorted conceit to get out of the contradiction. In DAO, you're dreaming. In DAI Abyss, Nightmare is screwing with you and in any case, you can't trust your own perception (some see spiders, some see maggots). You "see" demons, but are they really demons, or just how your preconceived notions project on entities your brain struggles to interpret?

[Dai Grepher]

That's not how tainting Lyrium works. Corypheus explicitly needed to find Red Lyrium to have access to it, he didn't just corrupt a bunch.

If the Thaig was corrupted afterward, it was either the location where the Magisters entered the Black City or where they exited it. This is consistent with the corrupted lyrium beneath the Temple Of Sacred Ashes, which was corrupted when Corypheus tried to make a new breach into the Black City.

But those two things contradict. Either Cory couldn't make red lyrium or he could with the explosion. I think the nature of red lyrium has not yet been explained. According to Bianca, lyrium is alive, and thus can be tainted. However, minerals can be tainted as well, as was stated in DA:O and even in DA:I. Soil can hold the taint and prevent things from growing there except a specific plant (one of the plants found in the Hissing Wastes). But if lyrium is alive, then using the taint or taint-based magic on it should be able to corrupt this living lyrium. If it isn't actually alive, then it is still magic, and taint-based magic should be able to corrupt it.

I do not believe that the Breach caused red lyrium to appear. I believe that Corypheus had been changing the lyrium beneath the temple for years ahead of time in preparation for another try at breaching the Fade. The orb was just an added benefit. Cory merely had to find out about red lyrium and get some from Bianca to figure out how to control it. He and Imshael both knew how to create and remove it. So I think it's clear that you can make red lyrium as long as you have the taint and the know-how to infect normal lyrium. From that point red lyrium can grow almost anywhere.

If Corypheus didn't know about red lyrium until meeting with Bianca, then it means his return from the Black City didn't cause it, or at least he doesn't remember it. He doesn't remember the other Magisters being present either. So maybe it was a different Magister who corrupted the thaig.

Sorry, but how does this contradict anything?

My thought exactly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

^This. I believe the concepts of "abomination" and "demon" will have no meaning in a world with no Veil. You can read that conclusion into a lot of what Solas says. His perspective is of the pre-Veil world, so when he objects to all the FUD around "demons", maybe it's because no such things exist without the Veil?
 

I don't think that interpretation works at all, and I'm pretty sure it can't work for all cases. Solas states that demons are "spirits whose purpose is denied to them," and while we don't know that that's the only way it can work it explains all three of the corrupted spirits that come to mind: Cole turns into something in the White Spire that disgusts him in retrospect because he can't save the mages who are trapped there, Justice becomes Vengeance because he perceives the Circles as unjust and isn't powerful enough to do much about them, and the pacifistic Wisdom spirit forced to kill in All New, Faded For Her becomes a Pride Demon.

 

Sure, the Circles as they currently exist aren't likely to be a part of the world Solas envisions, but are they the only way Compassion or Justice could have been unable to do what their mental health requires them to do? Unless spirits become a lot more powerful with the Veil down (which has its own nope potential, since Valor is kind of a dick and Justice apparently thinks keeping cats is unjust) they could have run across suffering and injustice they didn't have the power to do anything about even in a world with no Veil. And the mages from Kirkwall who serve as the antagonists in All New, Faded For Her not only could have done as they did without a Veil, but might have been able to find a spirit rather than having to go to the trouble of forcing one to come to them.

 

So, maybe spirits understanding this world will help them keep their sanity and identities, but it's not going to completely prevent demons.

[Big I]

  I believe the concepts of "abomination" and "demon" will have no meaning in a world with no Veil. You can read that conclusion into a lot of what Solas says. His perspective is of the pre-Veil world, so when he objects to all the FUD around "demons", maybe it's because no such things exist without the Veil?

 

Solas's point is that if you approach a spirit expecting a demon, you get a demon. Well if Joe Templar becomes a mage overnight, he's going to be expecting demons. People like Sera and Vivienne who fear magic? They'll be expecting demons too. Honestly, it'd be rarer to find someone NOT expecting demons. And it's not like demons aren't naturally occuring, Solas says that Fear and Desire are the oldest types of spirits.

 

Even before the Veil the Fade and the physical world were separate, and even then spirits wanted to travel from one to the other (especially if the "ancient elves=manifested spirits" theory is true). In a present day context that means abominations.

[Medhia_Nox]

I've heard other people say that, but I've never seen any actual evidence to back it up.

There's some indication that the Blight corruption may have always existed - the Primeval Thaig was impossibly old - but the first canonical darkspawn were the seven magisters.

 

Codex: Veilfire Runes in the Deep Roads.

 

"Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!"

For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire.
The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy.
A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic.
Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast.
A voice whispers:

"What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all."

 

It does not literally say darkspawn... but they were killing and mining the Titans.  So THAT wasn't scaring them.

 

SO.... what scares seven obscenely powerful people enough that they collapse caverns and flee in terror?

 

There's also the Codex of Andruil hunting in the Abyss and what strongly seems like the taint overtaking her until Mythal cleanses her.

 

NOTE:  The Blight is the only thing Solas and Flemythal seem "scared" of.

[German Soldier]

 

Even before the Veil the Fade and the physical world were separate, and even then spirits wanted to travel from one to the other (especially if the "ancient elves=manifested spirits" theory is true). In a present day context that means abominations.

It seem that they were not separated there were just boundaries like with the ocean and the beach

[German Soldier]

 

 

There's also the Codex of Andruil hunting in the Abyss and what strongly seems like the taint overtaking her until Mythal cleanses her.

 

 

WHich mean Mythal know how to remove the taint?

Flemeth said she did not know how to remove the taint from a person in DAII.

[PapaCharlie9]

I don't think that interpretation works at all, and I'm pretty sure it can't work for all cases. Solas states that demons are "spirits whose purpose is denied to them," and while we don't know that that's the only way it can work it explains all three of the corrupted spirits that come to mind: Cole ...

I'd quibble about Cole being a "corrupted spirit", but I take your point. I'm going to go with that's not the only way.
 

Solas's point is that if you approach a spirit expecting a demon, you get a demon. Well if Joe Templar becomes a mage overnight, he's going to be expecting demons. People like Sera and Vivienne who fear magic? They'll be expecting demons too. Honestly, it'd be rarer to find someone NOT expecting demons. And it's not like demons aren't naturally occuring, Solas says that Fear and Desire are the oldest types of spirits.

No one said the spirits were going to be nice after the Veil comes down. In terms of the game, we have to have something to fight besides Qunari.

You are right, most people expect demons around every corner and under every bush even with the Breach closed. That's not going to be any different if the Veil comes down. Some amount of collateral damage may come from spirits pursuing their own agendas, others from spirits defending themselves against muggles attacking them as "demons". And ... why not? ... maybe we'll seem some spirits defending innocent muggles from other spirits.

I still don't see abomination being a big contributor, though. What is a spirit's motivation to possess a physical body when the Veil comes down? Possession, as I understand it, was always a primitive means to an end that will no longer be relevant. I don't buy the ancient elves = manifested spirit theory. But I would buy the idea that possession was more common-place and less traumatic in the old days. More akin to Mythal possessing Flemeth, consensual. Technically abomination, but not in the way that would cause mass destruction.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

WHich mean Mythal know how to remove the taint?

Flemeth said she did not know how to remove the taint from a person in DAII.

Flemeth is not exactly Mythal, and perhaps more relevantly the being possessing her is a mere wisp of a mage rather than Mythal at her height.

 

As for Flemeth saying she couldn't cure Wesley, what were her exact words? Did she specifically say "I don't know how to help him?" Or did she just say that she couldn't? For that matter did she actually say she couldn't rather than letting everyone assume?

[Dean_the_Young]

Flemeth is not exactly Mythal, and perhaps more relevantly the being possessing her is a mere wisp of a mage rather than Mythal at her height.

 

As for Flemeth saying she couldn't cure Wesley, what were her exact words? Did she specifically say "I don't know how to help him?" Or did she just say that she couldn't? For that matter did she actually say she couldn't rather than letting everyone assume?

 

IIRC, she references the Wardens in a 'they could save you, but none are near' sort of way. She says Wesley's time has come, but I don't believe she ever explicitly denies she couldn't at any cost.