80 réponses à ce sujet

[Aulis Vaara]

@Dai Grepher : no, those two things do not contradict. Remember that Corypheus blew himself up at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, he was not around to see the transformation of the lyrium and given the immense power required to open a breach to the Black City, this is not a practical way to create red lyrium. There is normally no lyrium topside, so none of the lyrium we see in the is natural and corrupted. Further evidence for this is that there is no veins-shaped natural lyrium in the deep roads.

This may mean that the red lyrium in the Temple of Sacred Ashes was in fact brought in by Corypheus (this really makes me wish Bioware are more consistent with their lore, if Cory brought this Lyrium, it should have affected people and we would know). The problem is that we see absolutely no normal lyrium, even though the mountain was supposed to be full of it. If we saw both kinds of lyrium, we could be sure that the red was brought by Corypheus, but since there is only one kind, it makes much more sense for it to have been corrupted, and with an apparent inability for Corypheus to corrupt it (he needed Red Templars to make mines of the stuff by infecting people and an ancient exile to guide the process), the breach seems most likely culprit.

As for Corypheus remembering things: he doesnpt seem to remember the first Blight either, non the Archdemon Dumat. So it's not surprising that he has no direct knowledge of Red Lyrium. Of course, maybe the reason he sought it out is because it did ring a bell somewhere in the back of his mind.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

On the discussion concerning where the Darkspawn taint came from, I think it could be strongly implied it's from the "Void" or "Abyss", whatever that actually is. Supposedly, it's where the Forgotten Ones are from, and the implications have been strong that the Forgotten Ones and the Old Gods are one in the same. Of course, this is connecting multiple implications, but I think it's about the most stable theory I've seen. Corypheus is pretty clear from the time he wakes up in DA2 to his commentary throughout Inquisition that the taint was already in the Black City when they got there, so I don't think they are responsible for it. They may have been the most recent cause for its introduction to the world, but I think it was very likely a pre-existing threat that Solas and other ancients would be aware of.

 

I think the main connection here is how the taint connects things to the song of the Old Gods. The Darkspawn consider them to be like gods and dedicate everything to finding them. I think it would make sense if that connection comes from the taint being innately connected to the nature of the Old Gods. So, my working theory at the moment would be that the Forgotten Ones introduced the taint to the world well before the Magister incident and that they likely knew what they were doing in sending the Magisters to spread it more recently. Of course, this is definitely just a theory and new information could change my view on it pretty easily.

 

Codex about Andruil:

 

One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. Yet even a god should not linger there, and each time she entered the Void, Andruil suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning.

 

Andruil put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, and the other gods became fearful Andruil would hunt them in turn. So Mythal spread rumors of a monstrous creature and took the form of a great serpent, waiting for Andruil at the base of a mountain.

 

When Andruil came, Mythal sprang on the hunter. They fought for three day and nights, Andruil slashing deep gouges in the serpent's hide. But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void. After this, the great hunter could never make her way back to the abyss, and peace returned.

 

—Translated from ancient elven found in the Arbor Wilds, source unverified

http://dragonage.wik...ven_God_Andruil

 

 

Wiki section on Elven lore concerning the Void:

 

The elves believe that the Void, or the abyss is the home of the Forgotten Ones, the gods of disease, terror, spite and malevolence.[8] It is dangerous even to the elven Creators.[8]

 

When Andruil began stalking the Forgotten Ones in the Void, she suffered longer and longer periods of madness after returning. She put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands. She howled things meant to be forgotten, until Mythal turned into a great serpent and sapped Andruil's strength with her magic, stealing her knowledge of how to find the Void. Andruil couldn't get back to the abyss ever since, and peace returned.[8]

 

In the legend known as the Great Betrayal Fen'Harel tricked the Forgotten Ones into returning to the abyss and the Creators into withdrawing to the heavens. Then he betrayed both groups and sealed the ways shut behind them, so that they would never again walk among the People.[9][10][11] Some accounts mention that the elven gods are trapped in the Eternal City at the heart of Beyond[12] and that Fen'Harel still roams the Beyond, keeping watch over the gods lest they escape from their prisons.[10]

 

The elves also believe that when the sun burned the creations of the earth to ashes, the earth's sorrow created a deep abyss[13] and Elgar'nan temporarily buried the sun in it.[13][14] It is unclear whether this is the same "abyss" as the one in which the Forgotten Ones thrive.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Void

[Aulis Vaara]

I think it would make sense if that connection comes from the taint being innately connected to the nature of the Old Gods.

It isn't. Evidence: The Architect succeeded in disconnecting darkspawn from the song of the old gods and presumably their hive mind. We also know that the song of the old gods is a physical song that vibrates the very caverns of their prisons (there's a codex in the Western Approach, I think). So basically, the song is external from the darkspawn, but because they have a hive mind, they can hear the song so long as one darkspawn can hear it.

The song also isn't connected to the archdemons, because even during a blight, the wardens don't complain about the song, but they CAN hear the archdemon's commands (though they cannot always understand them). The song is presumably still there somewhere in the back of their head because of the other imprisoned Old Gods, but no wardens are going "damn that song is getting louder, the archdemon must be close". In fact, because the song is physical, everybody would just be able to feel the song going through them near an archdemon, but that has never happened.

So basically, it's either their prisons or the uncorrupted Old Gods that have the song, in neither case does it seem like it is connected to the taint.

-----

As for the Forgotten Ones, we have one reliable codex on them, and that's from Geldauran himself, saying that he will not be bound to the false gods and that he will find his own power. He does not sound like a god. He sounds like a rebel, the kind of rebel that helped Solas in overthrowing the Evanuris. Not gods, just rebels, and black sheep of history. And we know what Solas does with people who are no longer useful to him.

We only know of the Forbidden Ones being exiled, and they were exiled to the far reaches of the Fade. Why would the Forgotten Ones even be dumped in the depths? Given that we have evidence that the Evanuris accidentally dug too greedily and too deeply, it seems like THEY are responsible for unleashing the taint on Thedas.

At the moment, the Forgotten Ones are just a complete non-entity. But hey, we might find their petrified remains in the Eluvian network somewhere!

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It isn't. Evidence: The Architect succeeded in disconnecting darkspawn from the song of the old gods and presumably their hive mind. We also know that the song of the old gods is a physical song that vibrates the very caverns of their prisons (there's a codex in the Western Approach, I think). So basically, the song is external from the darkspawn, but because they have a hive mind, they can hear the song so long as one darkspawn can hear it.

The song also isn't connected to the archdemons, because even during a blight, the wardens don't complain about the song, but they CAN hear the archdemon's commands (though they cannot always understand them). The song is presumably still there somewhere in the back of their head because of the other imprisoned Old Gods, but no wardens are going "damn that song is getting louder, the archdemon must be close". In fact, because the song is physical, everybody would just be able to feel the song going through them near an archdemon, but that has never happened.

So basically, it's either their prisons or the uncorrupted Old Gods that have the song, in neither case does it seem like it is connected to the taint.

-----

As for the Forgotten Ones, we have one reliable codex on them, and that's from Geldauran himself, saying that he will not be bound to the false gods and that he will find his own power. He does not sound like a god. He sounds like a rebel, the kind of rebel that helped Solas in overthrowing the Evanuris. Not gods, just rebels, and black sheep of history. And we know what Solas does with people who are no longer useful to him.

We only know of the Forbidden Ones being exiled, and they were exiled to the far reaches of the Fade. Why would the Forgotten Ones even be dumped in the depths? Given that we have evidence that the Evanuris accidentally dug too greedily and too deeply, it seems like THEY are responsible for unleashing the taint on Thedas.

At the moment, the Forgotten Ones are just a complete non-entity. But hey, we might find their petrified remains in the Eluvian network somewhere!

 

I don't really feel like that's evidence that there isn't a connection. Why does the taint create a hivemind that basically only exists to unite those connected to the song? That the song is physical isn't really relevant to the fact that the taint is what makes beings capable of hearing it all over the world, or why they're compelled to seek it out. The Architect breaks that hold, but it's not evidence that there was never any connection just because it can be broken. He uses Warden blood in a sort of reversal, it allows the Wardens to tap in somewhat to the connection and allows Darkspawn to disconnect. Still, the taint is what connects beings to the song and it's what allows the Archdemon's soul to be pulled into another body.

 

I'm not saying this is an ironclad theory and it's probably not exactly what those Codex I posted said, but this isn't really enough to prove to me that there's nothing to it. There's still too much wrapped up in the song and the taint for me to think it's totally disconnected. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Old Gods aren't already tainted on the time of their release, just as the Black City was already tainted on arrival. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We know the song is directly connected to the archdemon because the ghouls tell us it is. Tamlen and Ruck basically say Urthemiel sings to them. Also the Architect never would have needed to try to separate the darkspawn from the song if hearing it wasn't part of their nature.

Although I don't really understand why the Evanuris would be afraid of the blight. If modern Thedas can repel them five times, the Elvhenan should have been able to do it easier.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

We know the song is directly connected to the archdemon because the ghouls tell us it is. Tamlen and Ruck basically say Urthemiel sings to them. Also the Architect never would have needed to try to separate the darkspawn from the song if hearing it wasn't part of their nature.

Although I don't really understand why the Evanuris would be afraid of the blight. If modern Thedas can repel them five times, the Elvhenan should have been able to do it easier.

 

Well, several sources in the extended media talk about "blight magic" and supposedly the veil dampens all kinds of magic. The elves were stronger before the veil and it crippled their society. It's possible the same is true about the Blight and whatever is behind it.