48 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

So in Dragon Age we are kind of awash in religion, the maker, Andraste, the chant of light, the chantry, templars, etc, it's kind of everywhere in a way, but sort of on the periphery. Alistair for instance posits himself as a rejection of those institutions, Morrigan is a clear outsider, the divine mother and Cullen and others are portrayed usually not as harbingers of the ideals portrayed in various institutions but rather as

 

Even in Dragon Age: Inquisition, we are the Inquisitor which is also a religious title of a sorts. However, to be blunt, I don't see it as really very "religious" since most of the time you spend sort of caravassing and causing lots of mayhem and such, which is fine and all.

 

I guess in many ways the kind of chaotic temperament of a typical video game or Bioware protagonist is the excuse to engage in all sorts of "fun" but I was wondering would it be possible to see more of like a "pure" protagonist that has their mind set on kind of a non-violent approach or is otherwise inclined towards pacific endeavor, which does or does not have to actually coincide with religion in a sense, but like someone that is less rebellious and is otherwise committed to like following ideals rather than the whole sort of "rebellious" thing, and since Dragon Age provides a bunch of those ideas to follow...

 

It's not hard to conjure up conflict, given that Thedas is a world of coercion and strife, even being committed to a peaceful existence does not prevent the possibility of conflict anyway.

 

Anyway I feel like Inqusitor was meant to be like some kind of "crusader" or something but in practice the Inquisitor was really just the person who had special powers and the whole thing wasn't really related to Andraste or anything else in particular.

 

 

 

 

[Abyss108]

Sooooo is this about having a religious character or a pacifist character or a protagonist that is not "rebellious"? Because they are not at all related.

 

Anyway, you can play a religious character in Inquisition, and there is nothing rebellious about them. The entire game is about returning the status quo.

 

You can't really play a pacifist character, and they would have to significantly redesign the game to allow you to do so - not that that would necessarily be bad, you can be a pacifist in New Vegas and that's one of my favourite games.

[thats1evildude]

Well, you can be merciful to quite a few opponents in DA, but those instances are separated by dozens and dozens of murders.

[Daerog]

This is a religion where their savior is a warrior and not a pacifist, so one can argue that being a warrior/crusader is righteous. The first Divine was also a warrior who fought in wars.

The lack of a non-violent protagonist is due to gameplay. Certainly they could make a game that involves being a Bard, who can accomplish missions violently or nonviolently. There was that text game in DA Keep where you were a noble that didn't have to include violence.

[vertigomez]

You mean a religious Ideal Hero? It's entirely possible to play that way, as a goodie character with the best intentions, noble ideals, all about honor, etc. Someone who posits to stand for Truth, Justice, and the Thedosian way.

The "problem" is that while you can be this kind of hero, realistically DA is not the kind of world they'll flourish in. This setting is full of people who are more ruthless than you and who have opposing goals. That's not necessarily a bad thing... but it effectively makes you unhardened Alistair in a world of Loghains.

And if you're really into roleplaying, it's fun to speculate on why your character thinks they're so good and righteous all the time.

[Seraphim24]

Well you can play that way, sorta...  yeah it's true, but like yes of course DA is full of the ruthless sort of characters and such, but that's why I think it would be interesting because it would be a change of pace in that sense. There's kind of more of like a "Viking, pagan" vibe throughout the whole thing.

 

I don't think that the religious and pacifist elements in so far as I was thinking of someone who is religious or otherwise devoted to some kind of "ideal" as the reason for their pacifism, not as an abstract like.. just because or like it's a fresh new concept or even that is it's own ideal.

 

So that's why I was thinking of an overtly religious protagonist, and then they would likely be more pacifist as a consequence.

 

I'm not sure games like New Vegas where you get lots of freedom of choice in which side to be on or who to pick really totally capture that, because the main thrust of the game generally still requires you to play a certain role, but I did like that game well enough so I sort of see that.

 

I guess it's just we often have characters that are like "my way or the highway, or the system is wrong" kind of thing whereas I think it would be cool to have like a "Well the system does provide this, this system does provide that" sort of thing.

[straykat]

It's easy for me to play religious, lore wise. I like some of their stuff.

 

The problem is that I'm not dreadful enough. Andraste waged wars. I pick flowers. I don't even understand why Bioware called it an Inquisition. The word Inquisition itself used to spark fear...and it still does, in other fantasy (Warhammer, for example). Not to say all religion should be like that, of course. just speaking of Inquisitions.

 

Basically, Bioware does the whole snarky band of adventurers things well... just not this. So it's hard to play too seriously. I tried to play Andrastian characters, but they're still sort of funny. I can't even figure out a coherent theme for some of these followers. I'm just recruiting willy nilly. The Inquisition in DA is apparently some umbrella organization with an open door policy to everything.

[Seraphim24]

It's easy for me to play religious, lore wise. I like some of their stuff.

 

The problem is that I'm not dreadful enough. Andraste waged wars. I pick flowers. I don't even understand why Bioware called it an Inquisition. The word Inquisition itself used to spark fear...and it still does, in other fantasy (Warhammer, for example). Not to say all religion should be like that, of course. just speaking of Inquisitions.

 

Basically, Bioware does the whole snarky band of adventurers things well... just not this. So it's hard to play too seriously. I tried to play Andrastian characters, but they're still sort of funny. I can't even figure out a coherent theme for some of these followers. I'm just recruiting willy nilly. The Inquisition in DA is apparently some umbrella organization with an open door policy to everything.

 

Yeah I'm not really sure why it was called Inquisition either... but yeah it's the snarky band of adventurerers thing that defines their style I think it would be interesting if they went in a different direction.

[Seraphim24]

Honestly I'd point to the examples but I can't really think of any in some ways..... early Diablo and a few other random things kind of alluded to it, and I think you can sort of play that way in BG2 although that's Torm which is sorta... anyway... I'm just saying there's bits and pieces but it's not really the focus. 

 

I think actually early Diablo might of been one of the closest.

 

NWN was in that vein too since you could play as a cleric and follow a certain deity but again all the gods and such are kinda like not necessarily the pacific type per se....

[Jedi Comedian]

It was way cooler and better done being religious in DAO but of course that game had lotsa RP options.

[Havyn25]

Well, I tried to play a pacifist Trevelyan, who believed in the Maker, Andraste and all that, but I think Dorian said it best:

 

"You're very sentimental for someone who's killed as many people as you have." Sometimes there are no other options other than fight.

 

I'd love the option for less battles myself, that you could use your wits or cunning or diplomatic skills instead. We do get a bit of that at Halamshiral, where we can save the duchess and Celene. I normally have my character send her to a nunnery

[Ghost Gal]

"Religious" and "Peaceful/Pacifist" are not mutually inclusive.

 

In fact, that's kind of a modern idea. Except for religions that are specifically pacifist in nature, like Buddhism (which calls for vegetarianism as well as non-violence against humans in its endeavor to lead a harmless life), religious people have infamously been a pretty war-mongering lot. Christianity is a fine example. Just look at the Crusades, or real-life Inquisition, or Joan of Arc, or witch hunts from the Middle Ages to the Salem Witch Trials. Islam... the prophet Mohammed was a war general who primarily spread his doctrine by conquering and converting vast territories, not passing out leaflets.

 

In-universe, Andrastianism itself is not a peaceful religion. Andraste was a war-mongering general who led a brutal military campaign against the Imperium. To quote a DAO character, "she didn't send them a strongly worded letter." The Chantry itself has its own personal army of holy warriors, the Templars, to do their bidding: imprison mages, hunt and kill maleficar, and be on stand-by for when they lead an Exalted March (fantasy Crusade) against enemies of the Chantry. Heck, the Inquisition in this game is a military organization.

 

If you want to play a religious character, go on ahead. If you want to play an attempted peaceful and/or pacifist character, go on ahead. If you want to play a character that is peaceful and attempted peaceful/pacifist, go on ahead. But don't claim to want to play character who is peaceful on account of being religious, because Andrastianism is not a peaceful religion in this setting.

[Andraste_Reborn]

In fact, as far as we've seen, there are no pacifist religions in the setting unless they're hiding really well. The Old Gods encouraged blood magic to the point of sacrificing hundreds of slaves. The Qun advocates spreading its ideology through war. The Dwarven Ancestors are thought to settle disputes by determining the outcome of single combat, sometimes to the death. The Elven Pantheon are not exactly soft and cuddly even in the version of the story the Dalish believe where they aren't just mage slave-owners who got above themselves. The Avvar worship Hakkon Wintersbreath and other violent spirits. We know almost nothing about Chasind religion, but it's said to be similar to what the Avvar believe, so I expect they've got their own war gods.

 

In short, I don't think there's any religious basis for pacifism in the setting. (Which isn't to say you couldn't attempt to roleplay a pacifist. Albeit a pacifist who fails spectacularly and kills hundreds of people. But 'my god(s) say not to kill people' would not be a good motivation.)

[Gervaise]

The best example of passive resistance that is recounted in the setting is in DA2 which tells how Sebastian's family originally came to power.    There was apparently a tyrant on the throne of Starkhaven, so the original Vael sat himself down on the Chantry steps to fast and encouraged everyone else to do the same and refused to shift until the ruler stood down.   Eventually even the palace guard joined them and the tyrant was forced to give way as I assume the city was at a stand still.   Then the people offered the crown to Vael but he refused to be a king, instead taking the title of prince.      I think that is probably the only example of a person achieving something in Thedas without killing a whole bunch of people.  I love the idea of it but I have to admit it would make for a rather slow game if the PC wanted to do it that way every time.

 

Where games have offered me the opportunity to build a character who could reason and talk their way out of a situation I have taken it because I like the idea of someone who uses their brain rather than brawn to overcome obstacles.    The best example of this to date to my mind was Planescape Torment.   That wasn't totally without action but there were situations where I did talk people down through superior knowledge, in particular the big bad at the end.     I have to admit, it would give me great pleasure to be able to stop Solas by superior knowledge and reasoning so that he finally had to admit not only that he was wrong but also that he didn't know everything.

 

As for the religious slant, well we've had spirits of valour, justice, compassion and faith but no spirit of hope or love (agape rather than eros).   If you were able to gain the assistance of a powerful hope or love spirit through your own devotion to the ideal, that would be rather good.    For example, giving hope to others through your determination and willingness to endure or having a powerful love for the world and everything in it, which is why you would oppose anyone trying to destroy it.

[Medhia_Nox]

The best example of passive resistance that is recounted in the setting is in DA2 which tells how Sebastian's family originally came to power.    There was apparently a tyrant on the throne of Starkhaven, so the original Vael sat himself down on the Chantry steps to fast and encouraged everyone else to do the same and refused to shift until the ruler stood down.   Eventually even the palace guard joined them and the tyrant was forced to give way as I assume the city was at a stand still.   Then the people offered the crown to Vael but he refused to be a king, instead taking the title of prince.      I think that is probably the only example of a person achieving something in Thedas without killing a whole bunch of people.  I love the idea of it but I have to admit it would make for a rather slow game if the PC wanted to do it that way every time.

 

Where games have offered me the opportunity to build a character who could reason and talk their way out of a situation I have taken it because I like the idea of someone who uses their brain rather than brawn to overcome obstacles.    The best example of this to date to my mind was Planescape Torment.   That wasn't totally without action but there were situations where I did talk people down through superior knowledge, in particular the big bad at the end.     I have to admit, it would give me great pleasure to be able to stop Solas by superior knowledge and reasoning so that he finally had to admit not only that he was wrong but also that he didn't know everything.

 

As for the religious slant, well we've had spirits of valour, justice, compassion and faith but no spirit of hope or love (agape rather than eros).   If you were able to gain the assistance of a powerful hope or love spirit through your own devotion to the ideal, that would be rather good.    For example, giving hope to others through your determination and willingness to endure or having a powerful love for the world and everything in it, which is why you would oppose anyone trying to destroy it.

 

So much this. 

[Seraphim24]

Andraste was an example of a partially violent person and experience but I think in her case it was an explicit rebellion against Tevinter, like.. as stated before it doesn't likely mean "pure pacifism" since by reaction to all the violence around them and coercion they would probably still be fighting.

[Seraphim24]

The best example of passive resistance that is recounted in the setting is in DA2 which tells how Sebastian's family originally came to power.    There was apparently a tyrant on the throne of Starkhaven, so the original Vael sat himself down on the Chantry steps to fast and encouraged everyone else to do the same and refused to shift until the ruler stood down.   Eventually even the palace guard joined them and the tyrant was forced to give way as I assume the city was at a stand still.   Then the people offered the crown to Vael but he refused to be a king, instead taking the title of prince.      I think that is probably the only example of a person achieving something in Thedas without killing a whole bunch of people.  I love the idea of it but I have to admit it would make for a rather slow game if the PC wanted to do it that way every time.

 

Where games have offered me the opportunity to build a character who could reason and talk their way out of a situation I have taken it because I like the idea of someone who uses their brain rather than brawn to overcome obstacles.    The best example of this to date to my mind was Planescape Torment.   That wasn't totally without action but there were situations where I did talk people down through superior knowledge, in particular the big bad at the end.     I have to admit, it would give me great pleasure to be able to stop Solas by superior knowledge and reasoning so that he finally had to admit not only that he was wrong but also that he didn't know everything.

 

As for the religious slant, well we've had spirits of valour, justice, compassion and faith but no spirit of hope or love (agape rather than eros).   If you were able to gain the assistance of a powerful hope or love spirit through your own devotion to the ideal, that would be rather good.    For example, giving hope to others through your determination and willingness to endure or having a powerful love for the world and everything in it, which is why you would oppose anyone trying to destroy it.

 

Torment was interesting well you certainly were not religious in any meaningful sense, not that again that is purely necessary here or is mutually tied to pacifism but the Nameless One was sort of a mellow guy.... was his schtick, or at least Morte was...

 

And yet even then like things invariably come to blows, I thought Trias was a cool character but then you end up having to fight him and that is often the case.

[Big I]

Basically, Bioware does the whole snarky band of adventurers things well... just not this. So it's hard to play too seriously. I tried to play Andrastian characters, but they're still sort of funny. I can't even figure out a coherent theme for some of these followers. I'm just recruiting willy nilly. The Inquisition in DA is apparently some umbrella organization with an open door policy to everything.

 

I had the same complaint but from the opposite direction. I rejected being the Herald and found it annoying everytime I came across someone bringing up the Chant. Can we not just focus on saving the world without bringing the Maker into it? I also hated Giselle because she told me to keep lying to the faithful after Adamant.

 

I think the religious themes of DA:I would have worked better if we had no choice but to be Andrastian. They could have really dug into Chantry politics and history, and what it's like to believe in a deity that has, according to the Chantry, abandoned you and the world. Cassandra and Leliana both believe that the Maker takes a direct hand in the world. Does that make them heretics? What does that say about the Inquisition?

 

Instead they let players opt out of being Andrastian, or religious at all. That meant that if they wanted to explore themes of religion in the game it had be done half heartedly so as not to annoy the people playing non-Faithful Inquisitors. Either that, or put in two different quest/storylines about the priniciples of the Inquisition, one fore faithful characters and one for non-faithful.

[Seraphim24]

I had the same complaint but from the opposite direction. I rejected being the Herald and found it annoying everytime I came across someone bringing up the Chant. Can we not just focus on saving the world without bringing the Maker into it? I also hated Giselle because she told me to keep lying to the faithful after Adamant.

 

I think the religious themes of DA:I would have worked better if we had no choice but to be Andrastian. They could have really dug into Chantry politics and history, and what it's like to believe in a deity that has, according to the Chantry, abandoned you and the world. Cassandra and Leliana both believe that the Maker takes a direct hand in the world. Does that make them heretics? What does that say about the Inquisition?

 

Instead they let players opt out of being Andrastian, or religious at all. That meant that if they wanted to explore themes of religion in the game it had be done half heartedly so as not to annoy the people playing non-Faithful Inquisitors. Either that, or put in two different quest/storylines about the priniciples of the Inquisition, one fore faithful characters and one for non-faithful.

 

Hmm all good points.

[Seraphim24]

I guess I just feel this sort of "drag" when I play a lot of games because I'm always kind of part of some reckless pagan outlaw group that... I don't know... like no one just reads the book and goes "oh right!"

 

Some games have you as kind of a bent medieval crusader which is nice like I was saying in Diablo or Diablo spin-offs, it's even in games like World of Warcraft if you look close enough.

 

Sometimes you are part of a really kind of faithful/dedicated powerful order that can be sort of quasi-religious like in Too Human with the Vikings and stuff like that.

 

I think it's weird though in something like Dragon Age which already is laden with religion we haven't gone full bore and become this like savior hero figure in the image of Andraste or something (the good side)

[vertigomez]

I think it's weird though in something like Dragon Age which already is laden with religion we haven't gone full bore and become this like savior hero figure in the image of Andraste or something (the good side)

I honestly think the world is just too nuanced for this. With MAYBE the exception of the darkspawn (and that's complicated by figures like the Architect), there is no good/bad side. Every side thinks it's the good side. The Qunari think they're improving the world and enlightening the masses one conquered territory at a time; Tevinter's mages are allowed to reach their 'full potential' and the plebs are just jealous; Solas is going to alter the laws of the universe again whether people want it or not. Anders and Sebastian both view themselves as righteous.

For us to be on the 100% good side, there would have to be one. There hasn't been yet. It's all a matter of perspective, and ultimately the side you're on is as good as it gets.

[Fylimar]

I myself am not a religious person. So it's not easy for me to play a religious character. I normally can do it with a Dalish - I like their myth, they remind me of the myths of the old greek and norse gods, which I grew up with. So that's kind of easy. But the Maker and especially the word inquisition reminds me of the not so nice sides of christianity (and of course other world religions - I guess, every major religion has it's skeleton in the closet) and I don't want to be a part of that. So normally I try to play balanced characters, who do not necessarily believe in the Maker and Andraste, but in people like Cassandra, Jospehine, Leliana ...  and who try to do the decent thing here - stopping Cory, closing the breach and trying to end the mage/templar war.

And like in real life, most of my characters respect the belief of others, so none of my characters mocks any kind of faith - my Dalish is cool with the Andrastians around her, my dwarf has no problem with the Dalish gods and my human mage (a non.-believer) still takes Cassandras issues with her belief serious.

Only when I play a real jackass character, I mock religion and culture of others.

[Sah291]

I think it's weird though in something like Dragon Age which already is laden with religion we haven't gone full bore and become this like savior hero figure in the image of Andraste or something (the good side)

Arguably that's what the Inquisitor in DAI is. Except that, instead of really playing it straight, it was done as a sort of deconstruction.

It's interesting, in the sense that it shows what some people see as random "chance," others see as "fate," and how myths get started, etc.

But I think the biggest thing is that even though Andrastianism is similar to modern Christianity, and the Chantry is a lot like a medieval Catholic Church, there are a lot differences. So the idea of a "savior" hero is different to start with.

We've seen spirits of faith, wisdom, and compassion, which are similar, but so far no spirit of love or mercy or forgiveness or peace or anything along those lines. There's no major religion or prophet or philosophy teaching pacifism or non violence. There are no anti war hereos or movement of conscientious objectors who would preach such a thing. And no Gandhi or MLK like figures that people would model themselves after. So I'd say these ideas just haven't taken root in Thedas yet.

You could try to RP it, but like with RPing an atheist character, it's difficult to do completely because there's no such worldview popular in Thedas.

[Beerfish]

It was way cooler and better done being religious in DAO but of course that game had lotsa RP options.

Agreed, there always seems to be elements in the 1st game of any series that they can't or won't repeat in subsequent games.

 

They did their origins so dang well.

[veeia]

I think it's because while on the surface it's a game about faith, it's not really a game about faith. It's more a game about power and autonomy. That power is explored through religious institutions and concepts, which gives it the veneer of being about faith, but it is about power/leadership.  Your personal faith is largely irrelevant and it doesn't explore that deeply. 

 

CoTJ/IHM is largely about what happens when you lose power, and the decision at the end is how you're going to allot it to your allies (either by controlling them or by giving them agency). Here you are encouraged to think of your decision in terms of freedom vs security. Is it better to accept them as full allies or must they be controlled because they cannot be trusted?

 

WEWH is about who is in control in Orlais. There is very little about faith here. Your choices are basically between the status quo (diplomacy based politics with Celene or Celene/Briala which adds in reform), aggressive action (military might, risking interventionist policies later with Gaspard), or revolution (Briala controlling Celene). Or you can just seize power yourself.

 

Here LIes the Abyss deals with an institution that has been corrupted and abused its autonomy, and you have to decide whether or not they're worth having around, another freedom vs security argument. There is a stronger faith component here with the Divine, but it's more flavor than anything.

 

Ultimately, even What Pride Had Wrought is about power, because there's not much meaningful content about what the knowledge you receive is or what it means, the Big decision is whether you want the power derived from it for yourself or or for your ally, which results in either them or you having a power dynamic with Mythal. There are a lot of faith based ideas floating around here, but ultimately the Well is a weapon.

 

Corypheus as a villain plays with some interesting conflicts of faith, but because you encounter him so little & your ability to talk with him is limited to a few brief declarations, you don't get to interact with that idea much with your character so mostly you just try to stop him from gaining power.

 

I was disappointed at first when I played it because I was hoping for a deeper discussion on the role of faith in Thedas and more opportunities to explore that with your character, and what I got offered even less of that than Origins. But now that I get it's not really about faith, it's more about institutions/religions as a basis of power, it makes more sense. It's still disappointing to me that they couldn't service both ideas (faith & power) better, because the intersection of them is where some of the more interesting ideas that pop up in the game are. I suspect that they scaled back on it because they'd either have to offer more options than they thought they could reasonably allocate to it or risk upsetting people who felt pigeonholed into arcs that didn't reflect how they thought the character felt. That's probably why so many of our companions have crises of faith or faith based actions instead of us.  Theirs can be more defined.