20 réponses à ce sujet

[Aries8]

Hello, this is a bit of a different topic I haven't seen come up. I along with my wife and a few friends have decided to replay Dragon Age series, more specifically we started with Origins. We were all sitting around having drinks when this topic came up. Also I will be focusing on a sword and shield build for these classes.

 

Arcane Warrior

Now everybody pretty much universally accepts that the Arcane Warrior if done correctly is one of the most over powered classes in the game. This class sets aside play style and is totally invincible about mid way through the game - at least as far as the computer is concerned.

 

Story and Gameplay

Challenge aside for a second they have a great story and a mage's natural skill in herbalism and poisons opens up and helps complete side quests to boot. They don't just help themselves on the battle field, nearly all of their buffs apply an aura that contribute to the entire parties success.

 

--

 

Templar Warrior

Probably the most "common" class in my observation and the one the developers seemingly put more effort into. People will often point out your noble heritage, there are less game breaking mechanics. This class can lose often since it's on the front lines without the aforementioned buffs which leaves the player with the feeling that this class is "weaker."

 

Story and Gameplay

Though they mention your heritage never once do anybody treat you differently or receive any benefit for it. Aside from your own personal initiative to get some good starter gear. The aforementioned natural skills of an Arcane Warrior often sees both monetary results and in some cases helps them complete side objectives with the option of the (mage) dialog. The Templar Warrior build has something for every situation however, if up against a rouge the shield prevents back-stabs and eliminates the stealth of a rouge. Also not sure the exact calculations but hitting a rouge with a shield requires them to pass a psychical resistance check they often can't afford due to the classes heavy dependence on the dexterity status... Hitting them with these abilities that knock them down often feels like a one-two punch and seems to render their dexterity stat completely useless.  The Templar can drain magic from their target as well as other skills and abilities we will get into shortly that make them perfect for dealing with spell casters. Effectively giving a tool for every situation and class.

 

A couple of notes: Rouges are widely considered to have the highest DPS out of any class - while there are plenty of arguments that could throw this class in with these two I found that this requires to much effort and lacks the tools that come with the above classes, one could make the debate for any class based on play style.

 

Also, this debate is over and Arcane Warrior takes home all the metals (so to speak) if you are just considering the standard game of DA:O. While it is possible with Awakening to be completely invincible for a few seconds with a Warrior build, Arcane Warrior is near invincible all the time. Between debuffing nearly everyone on the field down to almost nothing stats, Psychic Prison or Blood Magic will negate any build you made your character and you watch as you get slowly picked apart.

 

A Lore Debate

All this said the Templar Warrior would win if the class was handled competently by a human if the two should ever clash. One is the negation of all buffs it's almost as if they built a class to one day do battle with the Arcane Warrior, or maybe that is how the art was lost in the first place. But ether way, Cleanse Area would eliminate the buffs, remember the Arcane Warrior is not for quick killing but a slow methodical death giving the survivability a chance to get in and hit the Arcane Warrior up close. This is the biggest turning point should these two meet. Because the Templar drains Mana, making the delicate Eco system of balancing all those buffs waiting for a recharge that will never come. Even if you were to take into account Lyrium Potions all the Warrior would have to do is rinse and repeat, making the Arcane Warrior effectively micro managing is own death. Blood Magic does play a part and would all depend hinge on if the class could defeat the one of the most survivable (if not thee most) in that instant of the prison effect. It's also worth mentioning that the Templar has huge mental resistant buffs that cannot be negated. If Blood Wound/Blood Control would be effective I truly cannot say, it would all depend on the build. Blood Control wouldn't not likely work as it tends to not work and elite or higher creatures on nightmare, a small telling sign. More importantly if it doesn't work and with no buffs, reduced health, draining mana, it would likely be a very short match up.

 

So which class do you think would win and how? For me I feel in the game stronger as an Arcane Warrior but I get satisfaction in knowing my Templar could probably wipe the floor with him if the two ever met.

 

*I say a lore debate because this would have to be a hypothetcal meeting within the DA:O universe, the templars in the standard game just don't cut it.

[capn233]

Probably too variable to answer.  Seems like a lot would depend on the actual spell resist on the Templar, and what level.  Early game Templar isn't going to be able to afford spell immunity, cleanse area, or holy smite but early game AW will probably have Fireball, CoC, etc.

 

Level 20+ Templar with 100% spell immunity probably beats AW in melee.  Armor rating can be similar or higher on AW, but attack is likely lower and you don't get any melee utility skills.

[Aries8]

Seems like a lot would depend on the actual spell resist on the Templar, and what level. 

 

Very true at various points in the game I can imagine one outdoes the other. Both specializations unlock at the exact same time and the templar is about three skills into start getting resistances. Would also depend heavily on the equipment at the time. I was more speaking on the best both classes have to offer.

[Solace]

Lore wise, the Templar would own.

 

Why?

 

The arcane warrior is dependent on his ability to use magic to enhance his combat prowess. The Templar is a highly trained soldier trained in the art of nullifying magic and combat. The Templar would take away what the arcane warrior needs to be able to fight up close. Game-wise, the arcane warrior is superior, but only because if it were realistic, the Templar would be incredibly overpowered. So overpowered, it would not be fun at all.

[Aren]

They are both piece of trash compared to the awesomeness of the Spiritual warrior so awesome that is lore breaking and in fact Bioware eliminated the spec in their other DA games.....

100% dodge it's like having an Uchiha Obito in Dragon age.

[Aries8]

They are both piece of trash compared to the awesomeness of the Spiritual warrior so awesome that is lore breaking and in fact Bioware eliminated the spec in their other DA games.....

100% dodge it's like having an Uchiha Obito in Dragon age.

 

Well technically I believe a templar could become Spiritual Warrior. Most of those bonus specializations were beyond broken.

[Mike3207]

Swarm Form Mage might well beat Arcane Warrior in DPS. Nature damage gives the swarm form mage close to 200 points of damage to enemies every 2 seconds with max nature damage, maybe more if you use hexes-Awakening at 250 spellpower. Arcane Warrior attacks more slowly, and has the tendency to miss, Swarm hits every two seconds and never misses equipped with staff.

 

Of course one on one-Arcane warrior would likely beat Swarm. They have nature immunity with skills, though it'd be a tough battle for both.

[Aries8]

Of course one on one-Arcane warrior would likely beat Swarm. They have nature immunity with skills, though it'd be a tough battle for both.

 

Not only the immunity but psychic prison or blood manipulation would end that debate. A caster wouldn't have time to do high level spells I think.

[capn233]

Does Cleanse Area drop a Shapeshifter out of their form?

[Mike3207]

Does Cleanse Area drop a Shapeshifter out of their form?

Yes, haven't tested it but probably Combat Magic as well. Most of the Dispel abilities dispel all sustains. A lot of the mage specs are built on sustains-Keeper, Blood Mage, Arcane Warrior, and Shapeshifter-so it's an ability that's effective against all of them.

 

I don't think either Crushing Prison or Blood Manipulation would affect Swarm. Blood Manipulation requires blood and Swarm doesn't have any. I haven't been held in the prison, but I doubt it have have any effect either.

[dainbramage]

Crushing prison works on swarm just fine. Even though logically you couldn't hold insects in a cage, that doesn't mean someone programmed in the exception.

 

Not sure if blood control works on a swam, particularly as there are very few enemy shapeshifters, and no enemies that cast blood control. But it should be easy to test - if a dual-wielder can inflict dual weapon expert's DoT on you, the same holds true for blood magic spells.

 

 

On topic: A templar would definitely embarrass an arcane warrior. AWs rely almost entirely on their buffs, have fun keeping them up against cleanse area... And for the ones that turn off when OOM, even more fun against righteous strike.

[Mike3207]

 Will take your word for it, as I've never had a Crushing prison cast on my Swarm. Some of that might be how quickly mages go down in this game, other than a Warden mage. So many ways to put a mage on defensive-spells, Dog, Mana Clash. My level 10 mage currently has a 46% spell resistance. It's just hard for a mage to get past good spell resistance.

 

Which takes me to my next point-Arcane Warrior vs. Templar. Cleanse Area will drop the buffs and Holy Smite will stun the mage for a few seconds, but then you're still faced with mage vs. warrior-how good is the templar's spell resistance vs. the mage's spells. Most templars I run into-mage tower at least-don't have much resistance to magic, but that's early in the game. If that mage gets off  a Walking Bomb/Virulent, bye bye templar. As the templar builds up spell resistance, things gradually move in the direction of the templar in that battle.    

[Dai Grepher]

Answer is simple. The templar beats the arcane warrior because the templar can dispel the arcane warrior buffs, which the arcane warrior would need to stand a chance in melee combat.

Whether that same mage can use other spells that do damage or root is irrelevant. Those aren't part of the Arcane Warrior style. That's just part of being a regular mage. At that point you're asking if a mage can take out a templar with normal spells.

[Aries8]

Answer is simple. The templar beats the arcane warrior because the templar can dispel the arcane warrior buffs, which the arcane warrior would need to stand a chance in melee combat.

Whether that same mage can use other spells that do damage or root is irrelevant. Those aren't part of the Arcane Warrior style. That's just part of being a regular mage. At that point you're asking if a mage can take out a templar with normal spells.

 

Well it's not like you can take the mage out of the Arcane Warrior... 

 

 Will take your word for it, as I've never had a Crushing prison cast on my Swarm. Some of that might be how quickly mages go down in this game, other than a Warden mage. So many ways to put a mage on defensive-spells, Dog, Mana Clash. My level 10 mage currently has a 46% spell resistance. It's just hard for a mage to get past good spell resistance.

 

Which takes me to my next point-Arcane Warrior vs. Templar. Cleanse Area will drop the buffs and Holy Smite will stun the mage for a few seconds, but then you're still faced with mage vs. warrior-how good is the templar's spell resistance vs. the mage's spells. Most templars I run into-mage tower at least-don't have much resistance to magic, but that's early in the game. If that mage gets off  a Walking Bomb/Virulent, bye bye templar. As the templar builds up spell resistance, things gradually move in the direction of the templar in that battle.    

 

The real question here is; can the Arcane Warrior stripped of all his/her buffs presumable recovering mana from the shock beat the most defensive build in a few blows. Remember Templar damages mana rendering waiting to do spells useless. With no knockdown of the shield build there would be nothing a mage could pull out that would stall the Templar. It be damage all the time, against a build that doesn't really have the points to defend itself against the attack. 

[Mike3207]

Glyph of Paralysis/Paralyze/ other immobilizing spells should stall the templar-if it makes it past spell resistance. Web will also paralyze templar for 3 seconds and it ignores spell resistance. I also might have initial success with a Bear slam and Overwhelm before templar could use Cleanse Area. Other shapeshifter attacks will work for a time-before the cleanse.

[Serillen]

I would say Arcane Warriors are the worst of all the mage specs to deal with Templars. Why? Because Arcane Warriors are close range specialists and Templars need to get into close range to nullify their opponents magic. Yes the Arcane Warrior can cast ranged spells, but those are innate to the mage class itself so there is nothing unique about what an Arcane Warrior can do to Templars. Probably the only Mage spec that really has an advantage against Templars is the Blood Mage spec due to blood magic not drawing its power from the fade like regular magic does so its harder to nullify and resist for Templars which is why they had things like the Litany of Adralla created.

[Aries8]

Probably the only Mage spec that really has an advantage against Templars is the Blood Mage spec due to blood magic not drawing its power from the fade like regular magic does so its harder to nullify and resist for Templars which is why they had things like the Litany of Adralla created.

 

 

Very true, but I don't think it's a sound strategy to drain health away from the worst defensive builds in the game (without buffs.) Not to mention Berserker with the Mental Fortress ability pretty much shrugs off hexes and most blood attacks. The templar/berserker build has just about something for every build in the game. 

[MichaelN7]

Mages "question" reality.
Templars "reinforce" reality.

A mage can look at a log, and "question" why the log isn't burning. *FIRE*
A templar would look at the newly-burning log and "reinforce" the log's natural state, i.e. NOT burning.

It's like day and night. They both exist, and both are valid, but they cannot exist simultaneously.

Lore-wise, I would dare to say that a mage (especially an Arcane-Warrior/Knight-Enchanter) and a templar are not entirely dissimilar; both use lyrium, and both are martial in (at least one) function.

One augments, the other asserts, but both are *strong*, *decisive*, and *super* in nature, non-mundane.

Gameplay-wise, Arcane-Warrior/Knight-Enchanter would beat Templar if it can outlast the Templar, but if the Templar can "reinforce" or lock down the mage's abilties quickly and keep them that way, then the Templar would win.

But what do I know?

[Aren]

Does Cleanse Area drop a Shapeshifter out of their form?

It works on everything except against Flemeth since the event battle is scripted so she can't return an human even after the she is defeated.

[Qis]

Even without buff, Arcane Warrior still can beat Templars, IF the said Arcane Warrior have combat stats like Dexterity enough to melee Templars without using any magic

 

By means, Templars may nulify Arcane warrior magical ability, but the Mage is still human (or Elf) who can use weapon and wear armor like anyone else.

 

Alistair said "against regular warrior, i am just a guy in metal suit"

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Depends on the Mage. If it is against a Southern Circle Mage, a Templar would win easily because a Templar can dispel a mage's spells and Southern mages do not get sufficient martial training. That includes sustains like Combat Magic, Simmering Shield and Shapeshifter forms. Exceptions to this will include Dalish Arcane Warriors and Grey Warden Arcane Warriors.

 

However, if it is a Templar versus a Tevinter Arcane Warrior or Tevinter Knight Enchanter, the Templar would be in trouble because Tevinter Arcane Warriors would have trained far more extensively in combat so even if a Templar dispels a Tevinter Arcane Warrior's Combat Magic or Simmering Shield, the Tevinter Arcane Warrior is now a Tevinter Mage with Warrior training.