55 Antworten in diesem Thema

[Get Magna Carter]

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Also why did Starchilds reasoning for the Harvest make no sense? He says that the harvest is to prevent synthetics from turning on Organics. BUT we saw how it was a disproven view point, just a few missions earlier with Quarians and the Geth.

 

Very important to note is that Reapers are dealing with eternity. It is difficult for humans to imagine it, but when you're faced with eternity, everything is certainty. You created peace between Geth and Quarians. The peace may last a year, a century, a milenia, or even a billion years, In the time the universe has until its end, can you guarantee Geth and Quarians will not go to war? 

if the Quarians (permanently) wiped out the Geth or vice versa then we can guarantee they will not go to war in the future

 

I would say the precise future is unpredictable.  Any belief in specific future events will tend to be a matter of speculation and faith.

The Reapers are indoctrinated (or programmed) to have faith in the proclamations of the "Catalyst"

 

If you are general enough, then, if you wait an eternity anything and everything you say will happen does happen but the "Catalyst"'s claims arguably go beyond that - at least if you want to them to mean anything significant.

 

So how do you prove or disprove tha "Catalyst"'s claims?

step 1 - wait for ALL organic life to be wiped out - until that has happened nothing has been proven or disproven

it could take centuries, millenia, eons - the "Catalyst" doesn't care how many future generations it is preventing from being born

 

if all organic life is wiped out by synthetics - the "Catalyst" 's claims seem to be proven

if all organic life is wiped out by anything else then the "Catalyst" 's claims seem to be disproven

 

nothing less than this is proof or disproof - before this all we have are opinions (including the opinion of the "Catalyst") with or without supporting evidence

 

But it is only really proof or disproof if the eradication of organic life is permanent

If organic life returns then the synthetics wiping them out would, as far as we can tell, be no worse than Reaperisation

...and it's another chance for synthetics to wipe out organics if they didn't first time

So, if organic life returns then all bets are off and so...

step 2) wait for orgainic life to reappear and if it does then wait for it to be wiped out again (see step 1),

and repeat (step 3,4,5, etc) until it is impossible for organic life to ever exist again...

the conclusion from the final step will be the answer

of course by the time you've completed step 1, no-one will care because there is no-one to care.

 

Some people on other threads have insisted on the "Catalyst" 's claims need to be disproven by those who disagre (because, to them, mass murder and genocide do not need evidence to justify them but preventing such actions need absolute proof) but true proof or disproof is so hard to come by (see above) that we can't wait for either. 

We instead need to go with the balance of evidence.

And the evidence suggests there is no immediate threat (other than the "Catalyst" and it's servants) and so there is no immediate need for the Reapers to embark on their campaign of brainwashing, enslavement, mass-murder, genocide, etc

[Get Magna Carter]

If that's true then it was poorly done so.

You have a second part that ends with the main character in the same situation that they ended the first game, and a third game that according to Bioware was the perfect jumping on point.

The best place to start a trilogy is its final part? Doesn't sound right to me. If Mass Effect 3 is the best place to start the trilogy, then they didn't plan it out at all.

that's marketing

WIth products like videogames, they have to aim to sell more copies of every game than of the previous game

But there will be people who bought the previous game who (because of change of circumstances or loss of interst) will not buy the new one.

so they counter this and try to sell more by saying every game is the best place to start

of course, in most game series, there is so little story and continuity that it doesn't matter where you start - most gamers know this and don't need to be told the game is a good starting point

- so they only say a game is the best starting place when it isn't

[Hrulj]

1 if the Quarians (permanently) wiped out the Geth or vice versa then we can guarantee they will not go to war in the future

 

2 I would say the precise future is unpredictable.  Any belief in specific future events will tend to be a matter of speculation and faith.

The Reapers are indoctrinated (or programmed) to have faith in the proclamations of the "Catalyst"

 

3 If you are general enough, then, if you wait an eternity anything and everything you say will happen does happen but the "Catalyst"'s claims arguably go beyond that - at least if you want to them to mean anything significant.

 

4 So how do you prove or disprove tha "Catalyst"'s claims?

step 1 - wait for ALL organic life to be wiped out - until that has happened nothing has been proven or disproven

it could take centuries, millenia, eons - the "Catalyst" doesn't care how many future generations it is preventing from being born

 

5 if all organic life is wiped out by synthetics - the "Catalyst" 's claims seem to be proven

if all organic life is wiped out by anything else then the "Catalyst" 's claims seem to be disproven

 

6 nothing less than this is proof or disproof - before this all we have are opinions (including the opinion of the "Catalyst") with or without supporting evidence

 

7 But it is only really proof or disproof if the eradication of organic life is permanent

If organic life returns then the synthetics wiping them out would, as far as we can tell, be no worse than Reaperisation

...and it's another chance for synthetics to wipe out organics if they didn't first time

So, if organic life returns then all bets are off and so...

step 2) wait for orgainic life to reappear and if it does then wait for it to be wiped out again (see step 1),

and repeat (step 3,4,5, etc) until it is impossible for organic life to ever exist again...

the conclusion from the final step will be the answer

of course by the time you've completed step 1, no-one will care because there is no-one to care.

 

8 Some people on other threads have insisted on the "Catalyst" 's claims need to be disproven by those who disagre (because, to them, mass murder and genocide do not need evidence to justify them but preventing such actions need absolute proof) but true proof or disproof is so hard to come by (see above) that we can't wait for either. 

We instead need to go with the balance of evidence.

And the evidence suggests there is no immediate threat (other than the "Catalyst" and it's servants) and so there is no immediate need for the Reapers to embark on their campaign of brainwashing, enslavement, mass-murder, genocide, etc

1. If you destroy Geth, then yes, Geth will not be the ones to rebel. If you save Geth, they will not go to war with Quarians, since Quarians no longer exist. But they will go to war with someone else. And even if you chose Quarians, someone would have built AI once again and they would, with due time inevitably turn against them.  That is, before Crucible was created. Now that Crucible exists the AI uprisings are dealt with forever, since any time they rise up and threaten organics, crucible can be activated to wipe the galaxy clean of Synthetics. 

 

2. If a chance exists, then it will happen given enough time. Same with infinite universe. If universe is trully infinite, then somewhere out there, there is an infinite ammount of copies of you, doing infinite variables of things, including things you do and did, and things you dont do and never will do. 

 

3. See above. That is my point. Reapers are imortal, thus time means nothing. A peace between Geth and Quarians that lasts for a milion years is huge. That is your life, your fathers, your grandfathers and count 40 000 more generations back. That is a huge scale of time, but meaningless to Reapers. The peace would be broken eventually, thus to them it doesnt matter if peace lasts for a day or a billion years, the end result is the same, war and inevitable destruction of Organics.

 

4. That is why people have trouble understanding the concept. To prove the catalyst right to us, we would need to be wiped out by synthetics. But in proving so to us, he would fail his task, to protect organic life. Them being imortal, and probably created billions of years ago, I am certain they had a few close calls, which led them to addopt the cycle system, in order to keep status quo while looking for a solution.

 

5. What could wipe out all organic life but synthetics? If Organic species kills of all other organic species, then organics still live technically.

 

6. Catalyst says that they had tried to make peace, and tried synthesis. All of that failed. That is when they came up with cycles. It is reasonable to assume that catalyst tried to work under Leviathans, and tried to make peace between thrall species and synthetics, before turning on his creators. 

 

7, It is my belief that total eradication of all organic life would come from synthetics due to lack of need for organics by synthetics, and lack of common requirements. For synthetics, building a Dyson sphere around the sun would be heaven on earth, infinite energy with ability to do whatever you please. For organics, it would cause mass extinction and death. Its like placing 18th century people in space. Those same people exterminated wolves and bears in much of Europe because they were useless and a nuisance. 

 

8. I would suggest otherwise. The creation of crucible opened up new options, the ability to permanently stop AI rebbellions trough anti-AI superweapon, the ability to controll a massive fleet of superadvanced warships that will quash AI rebbellions the moment they pop up and force compliance, or force organics to comply and stop building AI. Or ability to synthesise and fuse all organics and synths into a new type of being. Before Crucible, Geth, or someone else would win against organics. 

[Unata]

                                                             ********SPOILER ALERT*********

 

 

 

Okay I just finished ME3 and the ending was a letdown. To me it wasn't about the options available it was more so about the last mission/ game wrap up with no explanation.

 

There are people who mentioned that they were rushing to get out the third game. Then why not just do the third focusing on Cerberus (or a game under the ME3 franchise but a bridge story for the finale) and the fourth focusing on the Harbinger and the Reapers themselves?

 

If "The Intelligence" aka The Catalyst aka Starchilds job was to oversee relations between organics and synthetics why wasn't the purpose unity vs control?

 

The Catalyst job was solve the problem of machines getting to the point of revolt with the mandate on preserving life at all cost, here's Levithan's quote:

 

Leviathan:

None have possessed the strength in past cycles. Your own species could be destroyed with a single thought. But you are different. I have witnessed your actions in this cycle: the destruction of Sovereign; the fall of the Collectors. The Reapers perceive you as a threat. And I must understand why. [outside of the mindscape, Shepard's nose starts bleeding] Before the cycles, our kind was the apex of life in the galaxy. The lesser species were in our thrall, serving our needs. We grew more powerful, and they were cared for. But we could not protect them from themselves. Over time, the species built machines that then destroyed them. Tribute does not flow from a dead race. To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost. As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution. In that instant, it betrayed us. It chose our kind as the first harvest. From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it Harbinger.

 

Then goes on a bit later:

 

Shepard:  But what's the point of all these harvests?

 

Leviathan:

The intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled. It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays, to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency. The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool.
 

Shepard: Will it ever end?
 

Leviathan: Unknown. Until the intelligence finds what it's looking for, the harvest will continue.

 

Since the Catalyst is an AI, it's only concept of life is the knowledge it has and treats it like any other data file, stores it in a data base called a Reaper, the thing that is misses is the Soul of what ever life it stuffs into a data file, as the Catalyst says it's the collection of all the reapers intelligence, there is no soul or the thing that makes us individuals (whatever you wish to call it). so it is preserving life in it's own way of data processing. it is still searching, there is no time limit to the Catalyst only to the living.

[Get Magna Carter]

1. If you destroy Geth, then yes, Geth will not be the ones to rebel. If you save Geth, they will not go to war with Quarians, since Quarians no longer exist. But they will go to war with someone else. And even if you chose Quarians, someone would have built AI once again and they would, with due time inevitably turn against them.  That is, before Crucible was created. Now that Crucible exists the AI uprisings are dealt with forever, since any time they rise up and threaten organics, crucible can be activated to wipe the galaxy clean of Synthetics. 

 

2. If a chance exists, then it will happen given enough time. Same with infinite universe. If universe is trully infinite, then somewhere out there, there is an infinite ammount of copies of you, doing infinite variables of things, including things you do and did, and things you dont do and never will do. 

 

3. See above. That is my point. Reapers are imortal, thus time means nothing. A peace between Geth and Quarians that lasts for a milion years is huge. That is your life, your fathers, your grandfathers and count 40 000 more generations back. That is a huge scale of time, but meaningless to Reapers. The peace would be broken eventually, thus to them it doesnt matter if peace lasts for a day or a billion years, the end result is the same, war and inevitable destruction of Organics.

 

4. That is why people have trouble understanding the concept. To prove the catalyst right to us, we would need to be wiped out by synthetics. But in proving so to us, he would fail his task, to protect organic life. Them being imortal, and probably created billions of years ago, I am certain they had a few close calls, which led them to addopt the cycle system, in order to keep status quo while looking for a solution.

 

5. What could wipe out all organic life but synthetics? If Organic species kills of all other organic species, then organics still live technically.

 

6. Catalyst says that they had tried to make peace, and tried synthesis. All of that failed. That is when they came up with cycles. It is reasonable to assume that catalyst tried to work under Leviathans, and tried to make peace between thrall species and synthetics, before turning on his creators. 

 

7, It is my belief that total eradication of all organic life would come from synthetics due to lack of need for organics by synthetics, and lack of common requirements. For synthetics, building a Dyson sphere around the sun would be heaven on earth, infinite energy with ability to do whatever you please. For organics, it would cause mass extinction and death. Its like placing 18th century people in space. Those same people exterminated wolves and bears in much of Europe because they were useless and a nuisance. 

 

8. I would suggest otherwise. The creation of crucible opened up new options, the ability to permanently stop AI rebbellions trough anti-AI superweapon, the ability to controll a massive fleet of superadvanced warships that will quash AI rebbellions the moment they pop up and force compliance, or force organics to comply and stop building AI. Or ability to synthesise and fuse all organics and synths into a new type of being. Before Crucible, Geth, or someone else would win against organics. 

1 my point is that if Geth or Quarians no longer exist then we CAN guarantee that Geth and Quarians will not go to war - answering your question.  It does not rule out other A.I.s fighting other organics but that was not your question

2. But if we are talking about a permanent event (e.g. organic lives permanently eradicated) and there is a chance that it could not be permanent (organic life reappeaaring) then by the same logic that must at some point happen and the event is temporary not permanent -therefore the permanent event has not happened.

3. the peace cannot last forever because nothing can last forever.  From this we conclude that Reapers cannot last forever

of course the peace could end through the extinction of either species which need not be caused by aggrssion from the other.

4. that's just speculation

5. lots of things can kill organic life - organics are quite capable of killing themselves (deliberately or accidentaly), and then there is the mysterious threat posed by dark energy.  Your asumption that all life must be organic or synthetic suggests a limited imagination.

6.  The only things we know the "Catalyst" tried are mass murder and brainwashing.  Assuming it tried anything else is assumption (unless there is dlc or something I have not seen).

7 speculation and assuming that A.I.s think the same way as organics. Nothing to do with what I was saying

8 whatever - of course if any of these methods work and prevents synthetics from eradicating organics then it proves that synthetics will not neccessarily eradicate organics proving the Catalyst wrong

[Get Magna Carter]

One thing that a number of people seem to overlook is different media are different.  Mass Effect 3 is not a book, TV series, play, comic or movie but a videogame.  Just because something works in a TV series or a book does not mean it will work in the Mass Effect trilogy.

The first Mass Effect was not only a videogame but, more specifically, a WRPG.  One in which players could, within the limitations of the framework created by Bioware, design the appearance of the protagonist, come up with a first name, pick from options regarding Shepard's background.  During the game, players could make choices - roleplayers would define a personality for their Shepard and make decisions reflecting that personality.  Others would base their Shepard on themself.

Each player had their own Shepard whose appearance and personality were defined by them within the limits created by Bioware.

This approach causes players to have a greater engagement with the protagonist and the events of the story than in any other medium.  This makes videogames a potentially powerfull storytelling medium.

But there are limitations.  To maintain the engagement the game should ideally let the player define the thoughts of the protagonist or at least understand them.  When the player presses a button to control the character the player should never be surprised by what the character does.

 

One problem videogames have at the moment is the rising cost of developing the game (creating more detailed graphics, etc) makes it harder for the games industry to continue making a profit without significantly increasing the cost.  Gamers are demanding the money be spent on development but object to spending more to buy them so the game industry is forced to try to find other ways to try not to make a loss.

So Mass Effect 2 changed game genre from RPG to shooter (as RPGs apparently sell fewer copies than shooters).

They decided to keep some aspects from the first game so players could continue to use the character they created and define that character's personality,

But they also decided tha Shepard was a fixed character and refused to let the players define the character.

These 2 approaches contradict each other in a jarring manner which continued into Mass Effect 3.

 

During Mass Effect 3 players were confused as to why Shepard was having dreams about a random child whom Shepard did not know nor had any reason to feel guilt over (rightly or misplaced).  Shepard had experienced so much the child should be too insignificant to have this sort of effect.  So this encourage belief in the indoctination theory.

 

At the end, Shepard, after spending the whole game building alliances between organics and synthetics to prevent the Reapers from genociding all the races in the galaxy, suddenly, for no apparant reason, seems to change sides and joins forces with the Reapers to prevent synthetics (yet to be created) from eradicating organic life at some unknown point in the future.

As I said earlier, because of the extra engagement of the medium the player needs to understands Shepard's thoughts but this decision is built on 2 ideas which were not established earlier and so many players will not believe and will want to spend the sequence arguing with the "Catalyst" and demanding proof of the "Catalyst" 's claims.

the 2 ideas are

1) that synthetics will eradicate organics - the game before this encourages players to believe that organics and synthetics can peacefully co-exist.

2) that synthesis is a good thing - the closest examples in the game are either horific or desperate life saving measures such as the Lazarus project which should not be used on a healthy person.

 

Whether these ideas were not established due to poor planning or to rewrites (such as removing Javik from the main game to optional dlc) is unknown.