127 réponses à ce sujet

[Melyanna]

I have finished the game a few times now, and I got all different options for Divine Victoria.

Of all of them, I think that the best one is Vivienne (which is why I have titled the thread "unpopular opinion").

 

My first Divine Victoria was hardened Leliana. It was my first playthrough so I used no guides / wikis / etc and had no idea it was so easy to end up with a stabby Leliana.
The pre-Trespasser epilogue, after killing Corypheus, mentions "rivers of blood". So I don't think this is a great choice.

After the first playthrough, making different choices and looking at the guides led me to all three other possible choices.

Cassandra: she is the Inquisitor's friend (at least she was in my playthrough), is loyal, and is overall a good, honest person. However, she is way more suited for action than politics. She loses her patience easily and does not do well in political situations. (See the Winter Palace). I think she lacks the diplomatic skills required for a divine. And she is surprisingly trusting and optimistic about people, for a Seeker.
Also, I think she is most happy as head of the Seekers.

"Nice" Leliana: she definitely has the subtelty required to survive in a political role and is overall a good person, however, she is idealistic to the point where she is willing to ignore the consequences of certain actions, and seems to think that "the ending justifies the means" in some cases. She is a revolutionary. This creates a very unstable situation and makes her a bit of a volatile ally.

Vivienne: Vivienne handles herself really well in diplomatic and political situations. She wants order and stability, because that makes her role more secure, but, since she is a mage, she can win the sympathy of at least some of the mages factions and work well with that's left of the Templars and Wardens.
You end up with a College and a Circle in a somewhat unstable relationship, but the way it's described in the end seems less volatile than the Leliana situation.

It seems to me, from a political point of view, that Vivienne is overall more capable of handling the role.
She is less trustworthy as a friend, from a personal level, but in a "professional" sense, you can trust that she won't make the wrong moves.

I know most people will disagree, and I look forward to reading your opinions.

[Taki17]

Leliana - either inspired or hardened - is too overly liberal for my taste, she's introducing far too many changes to the core beliefes of andrastianism, and a rebellion erupts instantly she's placed on the sunburst throne. That means people don't like the new rules, and nobody can be expected to adapt to this many changes in this short time. Plus, Leliana seems to reform the chantry from the ground up, she basically forces "enlightened visons" of equality and her beliefs on them and brutally eliminates any opposition, which is as dictatorial as it gets. (somehow this reminds me of certain aspects of present day politics)

 

Cassandra being a warrior with a shorter temper is not something that would make her an inherently worse choice for divine. It is undeniable that the chantry needs reforms, but the core aspect of andtastianism and the chantry should be left intact (or changed over time with small changes if needed) else the people will resist and support will wane (see Leliana). Cassandra served with two divines for decades, she knows a lot about Chantry politics, plus there is her experience with the Inquisiton too (she founded it afterall). Cassandra's reign as the divine could prove beneficial to the chantry, as her no-nonsense attitude and straightforward mentality could be solution to eliminate the overbloated corruption, bureaucracy and general inability to do anything without the divine in the chantry. Recent events proved that the chantry is in sore need of reforms in its politics, and Cassandra's down to earth philosophy seems the best choice for dealing with those problems efficiently and generating little resistance.

 

Vivienne simply wants power, and she's only interested in maintaining the status quo in the chantry because that was what gave her the power and position. Since she was born a mage, she never could've hoped to become a noble and play a part in politics normally, that is why she became court enchanter and a lover of a powerful nobleman. And her strong support for the circle and chantry comes from sheer neccessity - by chantry law, she's doing nothing illegal as a mage, so the templars and people have no reason to touch her, but if chantry laws were to change, that could compromise her position and ruin her plans on a long run. That is why she takes the opportunity to become the new divine, to cement the status quo, and thus, her position. Things under her control will be volatile at the least, as the same problems will continue to exist that led to the war in the first place.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I accidentally got hardened Leliana as the Divine on my first run, and was initially horrified. After seeing all the other possibilities, though, she's actually my favourite. She's got the will to enact serious reforms and the knives to back it up. I, for one, welcome our new Murder Pope!

[Reznore57]

I feel Vivienne can be good but her legacy won't be.

Sure she's giving more rights to mages ,so the mages will be happy.But the templars?They are back at square one while the mages are getting advantages.Not sure what she's doing with the Seekers ...and she probably won't help the problem of the Chantry being more interested in tradition and orlesians politics when catastrophe happens.(wasting months on electing a new Divine during the Breach , when the last Divine left orders just in case.........)

 

Hopefully the next divine is going to be a control freak with an iron fist otherwise it will all fall to pieces again.

[Krypplingz]

I'm not worried about Vivienne as divine. I think she has her goals and ideals written in stone and nothing is going to turn her off her course. She's also firm if her position is threatened, smiting down her opposition. So she'll sit on that throne, claws locked in until she dies.  I liked the goals I heard when she and Quizzy spoke privately, keeping the Circle but giving mages more powers within it. She'd probably also approve of mages leaving it once in a while once they proved capable and trust worthy. But I'm not sure if I agree with the way she goes about those goals. 

But at least I'm sure she'll stick to them. Unlike Cassandra and Leliana.

 

Cassandra can be persuaded to quit both the run for divine and leading the seekers. Both things she is passionate about. So I worry that she would also be able to be persuaded to let go of her goals as a divine. If she doesn't leave her throne in a huff once things don't go her way, like she did with the seekers. Note that I'm only going from what I saw and heard of her in game. 

Policy wise she is my favorite. If she sticks to her ground for once I think she can do great things. 

 

Leliana's personality is like a coin that's being constantly flipped. She already has had her whole personality manipulated by Marjoline, Justinia, the Warden and Justinia again. And now Quizzy can flip her between murder divine or marshmallow divine (or let her coin stand on the edge. I haven't tried that yet).

So it doesn't feel far fetched that if someone charismatic comes along and uses their viles on her, murder divine might change her knife to a feather duster or the marshmallow divine is suddenly coated in the blood of heretics. 

As for her capability as divine, I'm not sure. If she can maintain her progress then it would be great. Hopefully she stops with her monologues and creepy facial expressions. 

[Tidus]

Here's my take:

 

Leliana is to wild and her reign as Divine would be chaotic regardless if she's harden or soft..She's the perfect spymaster. 

 

Vivienne is power hungry and she is brainwashed by the Chantry's mage rules would be a puppet for the rebuilt Templars and Seekers. She hates anybody that disagrees with her about the rebel mages and rebuilding Circles. She makes this brutally clear if the Inquisitor stands his/her grounds about the mages freedom.

 

Try this. Do not attend Vivienne's party until you free the mages and make them your allies. Her true color will come out. She makes Morrigan look like a saint if you continue to disagree with her at every turn..That's one of the reasons I quit recruiting her. She even has the gull to blame the Inquisitor for the defeat at Haven..We all know who attacked Haven without warning and how undefendable Haven was..

 

Cassandra. She is a idealist and has great plans and changes for the Chantry and improvements for mages and therefore would make a good Divine.

[nightscrawl]

I accidentally got hardened Leliana as the Divine on my first run, and was initially horrified. After seeing all the other possibilities, though, she's actually my favourite. She's got the will to enact serious reforms and the knives to back it up. I, for one, welcome our new Murder Pope!

 

I prefer "nice" Leliana, but I did actually lol at "Murder Pope."

[Xilizhra]

Leliana - either inspired or hardened - is too overly liberal for my taste, she's introducing far too many changes to the core beliefes of andrastianism, and a rebellion erupts instantly she's placed on the sunburst throne. That means people don't like the new rules, and nobody can be expected to adapt to this many changes in this short time. Plus, Leliana seems to reform the chantry from the ground up, she basically forces "enlightened visons" of equality and her beliefs on them and brutally eliminates any opposition, which is as dictatorial as it gets. (somehow this reminds me of certain aspects of present day politics)

It's not a rebellion; it's cut short before it becomes that. In any case, anti-equality types deserve it. She also has more political experience than Cassandra and more religious experience than Vivienne, so in terms of actual skill, is the most qualified for the position.

[Wulfram]

If you ignore policy then I agree Vivienne is the best qualified. With Cassandra the least, given her aversion to politics.

Fundamentally if Leliana and Cassandra were the ideal Divines then they should have been Inquisitor.

[Patricia08]

Leliana : In most of my playthroughs i let Leliana become the next Divine mostly because she will free the Mages and the Mages should be free.

 

Cassandra : Just a few of my playthroughs i let Cassandra be the next Divine but i do not have a real reason for that.  

 

Vivienne : just a simple NO i never let her become the next Divine ( she is bad at it anyway ) i don't even invite her to my Inquisition anymore.   

[mgagne]

Vivienne is the worst possible Divine since she's a partisan of the status quo - which was the major cause of the mage-templar rebellion.  Leliana is too idealistic and will push for change too quickly and harshly so that leaves Cassandra, who recognizes the need for change but slowly and in moderation.

 

As a matter of fact I wish there had been an option to force the Grand Clerics to elect my Inquisitor.

[Taki17]

As a matter of fact I wish there had been an option to force the Grand Clerics to elect my Inquisitor.

Actually, the devs stated that they considered the option to make the Inquisitor the divine, but with the herald of Andraste thing going on, becoming the Divine (thus gaining another religious figure position) would've felt too much like the second coming so they scrapped the idea. It would've been interesting to se how it would've worked out with any Inquisitor that is not the human female non-mage, though.

 

In fact, when I first played the game I always thought mother Giselle is so going to be the next divine. She had much focus on her at the beginning (the first mission is to locate her), as she was considered the only one who could reason with the chantry clerics, someone who could unify them. I was surprised when there was no option to nominate her. It would've made a nice 4th option. Leliana stands for instant, liberal and drastical reforms, Vivienne represents status quo and Cassandra represenets subtle changes over time.

 

So mother Giselle could've represented the chantry giving up some of its political power and instead becoming an active charitable organization that maintains schools, hospitals and cares for the poor. Afterall, she always said that we interpret the chant and teachings too literally, and we should only look at them for spiritual guidance, not something that is set in stone; and the main objective of the chantry and the andrastians should be helping eachother for the betterment of the people of Thedas.

[Voidinist]

I based my feelings on Cassandra and Vivienne's reigns on their approval with the Mage/Templar decisions.

 

Allying with Mages: Greatly Disapproves from both of them

Conscripting the Mages: Vivienne Greatly Approves, Cassandra Approves

Allying with the Templars: Cassandra Greatly Approves, Vivienne Approves

Conscripting the Templars: Cassandra Disapproves, Vivienne Slightly Disapproves

 

Vivienne greatly approves when you suggest mages should be in the Chantry, she doesn't completely disagree with the rebellion, just that she disagrees with the timing and she agrees that Templar abuses should be protested. And from a metagaming perspective, as Divine, she has the most peaceful coexistence between the Circle and the College by Trespasser.

 

She may be an ambitious power grabber, but the arguments suggesting she only wants power for herself are baseless since she clearly grants mages more freedom and responsibility in the Circle and dialogue between her and Solas reveals that she's consolidating power to improve the lives of her fellow mages.

 

It's nice that Cassandra would like the Chantry to dedicate itself to charity and eventually allow others races to join it, but I wouldn't put someone who clearly sympathizes with the Templars/Seekers more, likes Gaspard's reign, and has an aversion to politics on a throne that sits in the middle of a political shark of an empire.

 

...And Leliana is a mess.

[Fiskrens]

Vivienne is the worst possible Divine since she's a partisan of the status quo - which was the major cause of the mage-templar rebellion.  Leliana is too idealistic and will push for change too quickly and harshly so that leaves Cassandra, who recognizes the need for change but slowly and in moderation.

I don't think that's really fair. Vivienne believes in the Circle system and that it should be able to work well - and actually that it has, only failing recently. With her (being a mage and divine) to keep things in control, she thinks the system can work. She's actually my second best choice of divine (after softened Leliana). But I do think that her reign is too dependent on herself being the divine; really good leadership shouldn't depend so much on only one specific person (especially someone as contended as her).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think my preferences for Divine Victoria depend on the Inquisitor I'm playing. Cassandra was exactly the Divine that was perfect for my first Inquisitor. Softened Leliana would be the ideal one for my second.

[mgagne]

Actually, the devs stated that they considered the option to make the Inquisitor the divine, but with the herald of Andraste thing going on, becoming the Divine (thus gaining another religious figure position) would've felt too much like the second coming so they scrapped the idea. It would've been interesting to se how it would've worked out with any Inquisitor that is not the human female non-mage, though.

 

In fact, when I first played the game I always thought mother Giselle is so going to be the next divine. She had much focus on her at the beginning (the first mission is to locate her), as she was considered the only one who could reason with the chantry clerics, someone who could unify them. I was surprised when there was no option to nominate her. It would've made a nice 4th option. Leliana stands for instant, liberal and drastical reforms, Vivienne represents status quo and Cassandra represenets subtle changes over time.

 

So mother Giselle could've represented the chantry giving up some of its political power and instead becoming an active charitable organization that maintains schools, hospitals and cares for the poor. Afterall, she always said that we interpret the chant and teachings too literally, and we should only look at them for spiritual guidance, not something that is set in stone; and the main objective of the chantry and the andrastians should be helping eachother for the betterment of the people of Thedas.

 

 

Yes, Giselle is one of the few religious figure I actually respected in the game.

 

As for my earlier comment - it was my male Inquisitor I wanted on the sunburst throne - so he could rule through both faith and the sword.  Then, after Corypheus' death, he would complete by marrying Celene.  How the people would rejoice to see their prophet becomes their protector in truth!  And once the Chantry and the Throne are united under the iron fist of the Herald, the conquest of Thedas would begin.

[Lulupab]

Vivienne ends up killing as much as hardened Leliana though. At least with Leliana you get reforms after the "blood flows". Vivienne kills to go back to the old ways, albeit slightly improved version of it.

 

Also anyone who knows Leliana should know that she would never kill anyone who didn't deserve it. I know "deserve" subjective here, but in general I mean people who betrayed her and/or tried to bring her down.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Vivienne ends up killing as much as hardened Leliana though. At least with Leliana you get reforms after the "blood flows". Vivienne kills to go back to the old ways, albeit slightly improved version of it.

Also anyone who knows Leliana should know that she would never kill anyone who didn't deserve it. I know "deserve" subjective here, but in general I mean people who betrayed her and/or tried to bring her down.

This. Funny how Viv supporters forget that, plus it being obvious she only wants the position for power. Seriously, do they not know what she does in the othe endings?

[Tidus]

IMHO Vivianne would make a bad Divine she's to hook on the old ways that started the revolt.

 

Don't let her beauty and smooth talk fool you. She's out for power  and to return to the old ways knowing dang well that system failed to protect the mages. The Templars and Seekers would be set loose on the mages to do as they will just like old times.

 

Well,Darling those mages step out of line and  needed correction would be her alibi  while she smiles in your face and say "it's spa day darling...

 

I freely admit it took several games to realize she is a evil woman wanting nothing but power.

[thesuperdarkone2]

IMHO Vivianne would make a bad Divine she's to hook on the old ways that started the revolt.

Don't let her beauty and smooth talk fool you. She's out for power and to return to the old ways knowing dang well that system failed to protect the mages. The Templars and Seekers would be set loose on the mages to do as they will just like old times.

Well,Darling those mages step out of line and needed correction would be her alibi while she smiles in your face and say "it's spa day darling...

I freely admit it took several games to realize she is a evil woman wanting nothing but power.

Not to mention several banters show she is opposed to any reforms to the circle and thought the Templars were right.

[Voidinist]

Not to mention several banters show she is opposed to any reforms to the circle and thought the Templars were right.

 

Cassandra: You would prefer to have the templars return to guarding the circles, Vivienne?

Vivienne: Of course, my dear. They need better oversight, clearly, but one does not throw away a tool because it was misused.

 

"creates a Templar order firmly leashed to her hand." "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before" 

 

Clearly a sith lord who intends to terrorize Thedas and mages specifically.  

[Big I]

Hardened Leliana is my favorite Divine Victoria. Finally taking the Chant of Light back to what it was supposed to be before corrupt, racist clerics whitewashed history (Ameridan's ethnicity and magic? Shartan's removal from the Chant? The Chantry supporting the Exalted March on the Dales, breaking the promise of the Prophet Andraste?). It works too, the Trespasser epilogue shows that she is more than capable of crushing the rebellious elements in the Chantry. The clerics will either get in line or get out of the way.

[veeia]

I like the options because there are good reasons for different characters and thanks to Trespasser,  it doesn't even have to be about your character's larger moral view since reforming under one of them means you have to trust them. I kind of like the idea of having to choose between keeping the Inquisition but having to report to someone you don't trust or are not close with it vs. disbanding it.

 

It gives a lot more weight to the decision there if you end up with a Divine you're uneasy with. Like I ended up with hardened Leli as Divine for one character, and he had been uneasy of her the entire game even though they shared the same general world views, so he chose to disband because he didn't want her to have his resources. Another character got Vivienne as Divine, and while she didn't like her way of interacting with people or trust her personally that much, she knew they were agreement on the issues that mattered, so she was comfortable keeping the Inquisition together.

 

Outside of the characters I play, personally I'm in favor of Murder Pope Leliana (lmao I love that), but either offers interesting opportunities going forward. My preferred ranking would be Leliana(Steeled) > Vivienne > Leliana (Inspired) > Cassandra and with the Inquisition disbanding, but all endings seem like they offer something. I do kind of wish that Vivienne would have been able to crush Fiona's faction entirely or that Vivienne wouldn't be able to set up her rival Circle with Steeled Leliana, but I guess they wanted to have some kind of common status quo that just varied on how effective it appeared to be doing.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Cassandra: You would prefer to have the templars return to guarding the circles, Vivienne?

Vivienne: Of course, my dear. They need better oversight, clearly, but one does not throw away a tool because it was misused.

 

"creates a Templar order firmly leashed to her hand." "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before" 

 

Clearly a sith lord who intends to terrorize Thedas and mages specifically.

Funny how you left out the end of the epilogue:

 

"Even if all try power lies with her". 

 

Also, these:

Cassandra thinks Viv is a tyrant: 

• Cole: You're lying. You're... twist the words right, and it will show its true form. Blood or banishment, either will suffice.
• Cole: You like the templars. You think they were right.
• Cole: You don't need to be protected.
• Vivienne: It can learn after all.

• Vivienne: You must see the value in restoring the circles, Cassandra.
• Cassandra: Provided they fulfill their purpose. Too many have suffered since the mage rebellion began, but we cannot ignore the abuses that prompted it. Without change, we risk repeating the events at Kirkwall.
• Vivienne: Or recreating its opposite. An overly lenient circle is a comparable threat. Kirkwall is lamentable, but it was the blight misuse of power, not restrictions, that led to the first Blight.

Clearly an open minded person who only has people's  best interests at heart /s 

[Voidinist]

*snip*

 

Why does her having power above all matter? I don't care.

 

Why should I care about Cassandra's opinion on Vivienne's reign? I don't. Cassandra gives the Inq 5 whole points of disapproval immediately upon even supporting her in the war table mission as if she had it out for her reign since the beginning. "Perverting the Chant of Light's intent to suit her whims" is just code for "Magic exists to serve man, she's a mage Divine, ew." She has effectively the same opinions on the Chantry/Circle/Seekers/Templars as Vivienne but sympathizes with the Seekers/Templars even more. I care even less for her opinion on Vivienne's "tyranny" since Cassandra says nothing negative about Leliana's hardened ending.

 

"Blood or banishment" refers to manipulating Cole to leave, which I also don't care about.

 

Shocking that she thinks that Templars are not 100% wrong and that overt lenience on magic will end in disaster as if that didn't ring true in every overly lenient mage culture. In the same line she refers to Kirkwall as lamentable and she does not disagree with Cassandra that the Circle shouldn't change and its abuses should be ignored. Truly, a revelation that has opened my eyes to the horrific witch that she is.