Vivienne just can't see or understand the old ways will not work and they never did. Why rebuild the reason for the mage revolt?
If she gets the power she wants the Chantry will not change that much and the Circles will flourish with murder,rape,needless tranquility needless testing (the harrowing) that amounts to frighten murder by the Templars.
And through all that "It's spa day Darling".
I'll go somewhat against the grain and say that I like Cassandra as Divine, at least based on her character and beliefs. She sees that the Chantry is flawed and needs to be reformed in several ways, but she also understands that you can't change what people believe overnight. Her temperament may not be most suited for the role and she might prefer to be doing something else, but I think that she is the most likely to lead the Chantry in the right direction without alienating too many people with her changes.
That said, I've only ever ended up with Leliana as Divine and I don't mind her in the position at all. Everything seems to work out, as inexplicable as that may be given her huge changes, so who am I to complain.
Okay, I'll bite - even though this risks making this thread Yet Another Vivienne Bashing™.Vivienne just can't see or understand the old ways will not work and they never did. Why rebuild the reason for the mage revolt?
If she gets the power she wants the Chantry will not change that much and the Circles will flourish with murder,rape,needless tranquility needless testing (the harrowing) that amounts to frighten murder by the Templars.
And through all that "It's spa day Darling".
Fiskrens,Good question. For the reason it never work read "Asunder" that is the book that open my eyes concerning the thug Templars and their evil ways. I was appalled that the Chantry's protectors of the mages would be so brutal for no reason other then their hate for mages. Rape, murder, tranquility for any and all reasons or simply because the mage was a possible trouble maker.
As far as the murder pope she will never become divine in my games since down deep beloved Leliana is still a stone cold bard.No need to place a bard on the Sunburst Throne.
The Seekers wasn't any better and that shows when Cass says we will discuss this later after you make the mages full allies. To Seeker Cassandra all mages are bad. Its her training kicking in. To Cassandra the right hand of the Divine there is doubt all mages are evil. Even Cullen reverts back to his Templar training when he ask Cass why she didn't intervene.
The Inquisitor took control and did what needed doing and is slam for it by Vivienne who by all rights is not even in the chain of commend and has no real say.. Same when she slams the Inquisitor for the Haven disaster and blames him/her. The way she belittles the Inquisitor at every turn is pathetic.
My overall opinion is this:
Leliana, in any form, is the worst choice. She sounds the "nicest", all happiness and equality and freedom and all the other things good heroic sorts approve of, except she doesn't really accomplish that, and only ends up driving people into creating a "protestant" Chantry. Her edicts end up carrying no weight because she tried too hard to force them onto people.
I don't think you paid attention, since that doesn't happen unless you don't complete her personal quest.
I don't think you paid attention, since that doesn't happen unless you don't complete her personal quest.
or he hasn't played Trespasser or seen Divine Leliana stuff. Seriously, based on some comments by templar supporters, I doubt they've ever done a pro-mage playthrough and seen what happens
My overall opinion is this:
Leliana, in any form, is the worst choice. She sounds the "nicest", all happiness and equality and freedom and all the other things good heroic sorts approve of, except she doesn't really accomplish that, and only ends up driving people into creating a "protestant" Chantry. Her edicts end up carrying no weight because she tried too hard to force them onto people.
Very false, Leliana accomplishes literally everything. She accomplishes so much that some people here find her ending "unbelievable" due to sheer ambition of her plans and their success. Although due to her position and large spy network she is the only one capable of doing them.
Vivienne goes EXACTLY back to the old system but reduces the power of Templars, so she literally accomplishes nothing. The failed system is what caused the war anyway, so very smart to go back to that system. But as long as Vivienne is getting power its all that matters right? She has already put vast majority of Tevinter magisters to shame.
Very false, Leliana accomplishes literally everything. She accomplishes so much that some people here find her ending "unbelievable" due to sheer ambition of her plans and their success. Although due to her position and large spy network she is the only one capable of doing them.
Vivienne goes EXACTLY back to the old system but reduces the power of Templars, so she literally accomplishes nothing. The failed system is what caused the war anyway, so very smart to go back to that system. But as long as Vivienne is getting power its all that matters right? She has already put vast majority of Tevinter magisters to shame.
There's something incredibly ironic about the fact that the most conservative option pretty much results in Tevinter than the actual liberal option.
Funny watching all the mage haters agree to give a mage power just because she said some words they agree with despite them fighting against giving mages power.
Trespasser explicitly states that her actions leads to various cells rebelling against the Chantry. If she's "inspired", she pulls the "people hate me, I must be right" card, but there is no indication that this does anything to actually quell the breakoffs. If she's "steeled", the cells that tried to have her assassinated are specifically stated fall apart, but again, that's as far as she gets. The split-off sects from the original Inquisition epilogue remain split-off.or he hasn't played Trespasser or seen Divine Leliana stuff. Seriously, based on some comments by templar supporters, I doubt they've ever done a pro-mage playthrough and seen what happens
Yeah, I do rather like the irony here.There's something incredibly ironic about the fact that the most conservative option pretty much results in Tevinter than the actual liberal option.
If she's "steeled", the cells that tried to have her assassinated are specifically stated fall apart, but again, that's as far as she gets. The split-off sects from the original Inquisition epilogue remain split-off.
There are only split off sects if Leliana was neither Inspired or Steeled. If Inspired, Leliana's Inquisition epilogue says the Chantry doesn't schism because they (presumably the clerics) are moved by her faith; if Steeled, Leliana kills anyone who tries to schism. People can believe what they want, but all in game indicators are that if you did Leliana's quest line then her reforms are successful.
I roleplay different Inquisitors and don't meta-game about Divine choice - they end with whom their choices made them end. So far I've seen almost all Divine choices expect with hardened Leliana Divine.
My Inquisitors aside, I personally probably would prefer Cassandra. Besides already made points that she is pretty balanced between the two I think her reforms have a chance to last beyond her life time. Leliana is making such drastic changes I am not sure next Divine will not abolish most of them.
However, I am sure the difference for Thedas will not be that big in the reality or the developers will need to create 3 drastically different world states. It probably will be something like choosing the Fereldan ruler in DAO - you can feel good about making right choice (or not), but for Fereldan it is practically not much difference (as it turned out).
Cripes, I missed that bit. You are correct.There are only split off sects if Leliana was neither Inspired or Steeled. If Inspired, Leliana's Inquisition epilogue says the Chantry doesn't schism because they (presumably the clerics) are moved by her faith; if Steeled, Leliana kills anyone who tries to schism. People can believe what they want, but all in game indicators are that if you did Leliana's quest line then her reforms are successful.
There's something incredibly ironic about the fact that the most conservative option pretty much results in Tevinter than the actual liberal option.
Funny watching all the mage haters agree to give a mage power just because she said some words they agree with despite them fighting against giving mages power.
You yourself have pointed out that "all true power lies with her". An argument you made to me that apparently suggests things haven't changed at all because mages under her aren't given more power than ever before as well as freedom and responsibility. This is opposed to 2/3 endings in which the College of Pseudo Tevinter Anarchists actively vies for more power.
If you're referring to me as one of these "mage haters", I don't hate mages. Trying to make something that works for both mages and mundanes coexisting on the same land isn't hate.
You yourself have pointed out that "all true power lies with her". An argument you made to me that apparently suggests things haven't changed at all because mages under her aren't given more power than ever before as well as freedom and responsibility. This is opposed to 2/3 endings in which the College of Pseudo Tevinter Anarchists actively vies for more power.
If you're referring to me as one of these "mage haters", I don't hate mages. Trying to make something that works for both mages and mundanes coexisting on the same land isn't hate.
The issue I have with Leliana and Vivienne is that they completely change core tenets of the Andrastian faith as it is understood in the South. Faith in doctrine and what you have been taught and have come to embrace either through genuine belief or simply be assimiliating it as something you are expected to fall in line with to take your place in and understand society, cannot simply be changed overnight like this. You can't just go to people and say 'Guys guys, I know we always believed in these things here, but now we believe *these* new things instead. Read them over and be ready to start believing them by Mass tomorrow morning okay? Cheers.' And its even worse if you're trying to do so by force!
I agree with what some have said in that Vivienne is the most naturally suited to be Divine. She has intelligence, contacts, faith, charisma, drive and knows how to play to a crowd. The south is reeling from disaster after disaster, Orlais and Ferelden at war, the 5th Blight, the Mage rebellion, the rift in the sky etc etc. They want some peace, but they also want strong leadership in these times. Vivienne would be an inspirational Divine, someone would own the office and make it majestic and important. It would help the South to feel like they were not simply some tramautised, weak nations, weary from war etc.
And in most regards she is not anywhere near as conroversial as Leliana's radical root and branch reforms. But in the one obvious category (i.e she's a mage), she is by far and away the most controversial candidate you could have. Asking for mages to be clerics is bold enough, but starting this out by having a Mage become Divine is one hell of a leap over the line! And how do they explain to the masses, when they have essentially acce[ted the Imperial Chantry's philosophy that Mages can serve from high office, and that Ruling is only really supposed to be intepreted as Tyrannical Rule etc?
For that matter, would the Imperial Chantry not be justified in saying 'Hey, since you seem to have seen the light and accepted the true Chant finally, you don't really need your own Divine do you? Shall we pencil you in for Thursday, so you can all drop in to Minrathous and swear your vows to the one true Divine?'
The fact that the college is Tevinter yet Vivienne is fine to you is just hilarious.
Do give me how the college specifically tries to get power
You want specific examples? I have to quote what the vague epilogues say to me just like everyone else.
"The two institutions settled into an uneasy coexistence across the South, vying for power."
"Having clashed against the Circle, the College now found itself without support against the newly elected Grand Enchanter, Vivienne."
"Clashing" with the new Circle and power grabbing as it says so. It does not explain "how", it tells me that it is. Whereas the free mage institution is basically powerless under Divine Vivienne AKA the only one mage with all the power in the Circle system. That isn't Tevinter on the horizon.
The issue I have with Leliana and Vivienne is that they completely change core tenets of the Andrastian faith as it is understood in the South. Faith in doctrine and what you have been taught and have come to embrace either through genuine belief or simply be assimiliating it as something you are expected to fall in line with to take your place in and understand society, cannot simply be changed overnight like this. You can't just go to people and say 'Guys guys, I know we always believed in these things here, but now we believe *these* new things instead. Read them over and be ready to start believing them by Mass tomorrow morning okay? Cheers.' And its even worse if you're trying to do so by force!
The sooner it starts, the sooner it can be done.
Faith is something cannot be bent and kneaded like this. You can't just say to people 'don't believe in what you always held to be right and true, and which we in fact taught you was right and true, because we now believe the opposite to be true. So believe that instead... now.'
Saying it as a lay sister is fine (though it will anger clerics of course), campaigning for reform as a member of the Chantry is also fine, But becoming the head of the Chantry and then saying 'This is now what we believe, because I say so' is absurd. There's no way anyone would stand for it. Their faith couldn't have been very strong if they just say 'Yeah okay, we're fine with whatever'.
Faith is something cannot be bent and kneaded like this. You can't just say to people 'don't believe in what you always held to be right and true, and which we in fact taught you was right and true, because we now believe the opposite to be true. So believe that instead... now.'
Saying it as a lay sister is fine (though it will anger clerics of course), campaigning for reform as a member of the Chantry is also fine, But becoming the head of the Chantry and then saying 'This is now what we believe, because I say so' is absurd. There's no way anyone would stand for it. Their faith couldn't have been very strong if they just say 'Yeah okay, we're fine with whatever'.
Did you forget how you are the Herald of Andraste and everyone takes your actions as signs from the Maker? Vivienne explicitely tells you that everyone is looking for a sign from the Maker and view what you do as a sign of what the Maker wants.
This is how the Divine choice is justified in-lore as your actions are seen as a sign for the Grand Clerics of what the Maker wants. Ergo, if you are pro-mage, people start thinking the Maker is pro-mage and thus they elect pro-mage Leliana because that's what they think the Maker wants.
Did people forget that conversation?
Also, note that this is the same religion where people think the Maker is helping them despite their whole belief outright saying the Maker has abandoned humanity.
For me Leliana is too radical and, doesn't provide enough education in a controlled environment for mages. Hardened she simply enfoces mage freddom with bloodshed, not good. Soften is a bit better but still to liberal.
Cassandra lack the political savvy and decorum for the job, her blunt, if honest and well meaning, ways will result in another revolt, she's too heavy handed and, too blunt.
Vivienne is too power hungry and, too traditional, she would have the same as was back and, that is not good either.
There is no ideal Divine offered, all of them will lead to trouble in one form or another.
Faith is something cannot be bent and kneaded like this. You can't just say to people 'don't believe in what you always held to be right and true, and which we in fact taught you was right and true, because we now believe the opposite to be true. So believe that instead... now.'
Saying it as a lay sister is fine (though it will anger clerics of course), campaigning for reform as a member of the Chantry is also fine, But becoming the head of the Chantry and then saying 'This is now what we believe, because I say so' is absurd. There's no way anyone would stand for it. Their faith couldn't have been very strong if they just say 'Yeah okay, we're fine with whatever'.
Well, how intengral are the things she changes to the Chant exactly? Like her letting elves and dwarves be clerics, would ordinary humans really care about that? To elves though, being able to be a Revered Mother is a big deal that only confirms their faith. And her relaxing the rules of celibacy (if she's in a relationship with the Warden) is pretty in keeping with their Prophet; I mean, Andraste had children with Maferath.
The big one is freeing the mages, but the epilogue says that the College of Enchanters works and mages have unprecedented acceptance, so no real problem there.
Basically Leliana is just clearing the corruption out of the Chantry and getting it back to the original Chant of Light.
Faith is something cannot be bent and kneaded like this. You can't just say to people 'don't believe in what you always held to be right and true, and which we in fact taught you was right and true, because we now believe the opposite to be true. So believe that instead... now.'
Saying it as a lay sister is fine (though it will anger clerics of course), campaigning for reform as a member of the Chantry is also fine, But becoming the head of the Chantry and then saying 'This is now what we believe, because I say so' is absurd. There's no way anyone would stand for it. Their faith couldn't have been very strong if they just say 'Yeah okay, we're fine with whatever'.
Leliana isn't removing anything from the Chant of Light. The heart of the faith is unchanged. She actually comes closer to the original Chant by restoring the Canticle of Shartan, and all of the other changes are effectively administrative, allowing more people to be priests (and removing the celibacy requirement that made no sense anyway). As for the Circle, that's not her doing anything; the Circle was already dissolved. She just doesn't rebuild it.
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