127 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghost Gal]

Funny how you left out the end of the epilogue:

 

"Even if all try power lies with her". 

 

Also, these:

Cassandra thinks Viv is a tyrant: 

• Cole: You're lying. You're... twist the words right, and it will show its true form. Blood or banishment, either will suffice.
• Cole: You like the templars. You think they were right.
• Cole: You don't need to be protected.
• Vivienne: It can learn after all.

• Vivienne: You must see the value in restoring the circles, Cassandra.
• Cassandra: Provided they fulfill their purpose. Too many have suffered since the mage rebellion began, but we cannot ignore the abuses that prompted it. Without change, we risk repeating the events at Kirkwall.
• Vivienne: Or recreating its opposite. An overly lenient circle is a comparable threat. Kirkwall is lamentable, but it was the blight misuse of power, not restrictions, that led to the first Blight.

Clearly an open minded person who only has people's  best interests at heart /s 

 

Not to mention she's very hypocritical for being against lenient Circles when she herself was raised in one. Being given fewer restrictions is what allowed her to enjoy rights and freedoms most mages from most Circles couldn't ever dream of, like being able to physically leave the Circle, mingle with the nobility, influence local politics, meet and have a noble lover, be allowed to openly live at her lover's chateau, etc. She herself spent as little time as possible in the Circles before they all went belly-up, yet accuses other mages of being "selfish" for wanting the same freedoms she got to enjoy.

 

Funny how a Circle being lenient is fine when it benefits her, but now that she has a "get-out-of-the-Circle-free-card" (by selling her fellow mages down the river and keeping them tightly locked up to win favor with mage-fearing muggles) other mages should be denied the same opportunities she got.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Not to mention she's very hypocritical for being against lenient Circles when she herself was raised in one. Being given fewer restrictions is what allowed her to enjoy rights and freedoms most mages from most Circles couldn't ever dream of, like being able to physically leave the Circle, mingle with the nobility, influence local politics, meet and have a noble lover, be allowed to openly live at her lover's chateau, etc. She herself spent as little time as possible in the Circles before they all went belly-up, yet accuses other mages of being "selfish" for wanting the same freedoms she got to enjoy.

 

Funny how a Circle being lenient is fine when it benefits her, but now that she has a "get-out-of-the-Circle-free-card" (by selling her fellow mages down the river and keeping them tightly locked up to win favor with mage-fearing muggles) other mages should be denied the same opportunities she got.

Exactly. Plus, if she really did care about mages, why does she start her own Circle and fights with the College in a Divine Leliana world state if she admitted the College works? It's pretty much obvious she can't stand not having power.

[DuskWanderer]

While I ultimately support Leliana's world-view (given that the real Chantry is based purely on clear bigotry), Cassandra makes a great point in the sense that Justinia could only do so much. 

 

Viv is not a bad choice to run a political institution, but, just like with Leliana, it's too much change at one time. 

[Fiskrens]

Not to mention she's very hypocritical for being against lenient Circles when she herself was raised in one. Being given fewer restrictions is what allowed her to enjoy rights and freedoms most mages from most Circles couldn't ever dream of, like being able to physically leave the Circle, mingle with the nobility, influence local politics, meet and have a noble lover, be allowed to openly live at her lover's chateau, etc. She herself spent as little time as possible in the Circles before they all went belly-up, yet accuses other mages of being "selfish" for wanting the same freedoms she got to enjoy.
 
Funny how a Circle being lenient is fine when it benefits her, but now that she has a "get-out-of-the-Circle-free-card" (by selling her fellow mages down the river and keeping them tightly locked up to win favor with mage-fearing muggles) other mages should be denied the same opportunities she got.

From the pre-trespasser epilogue:

The Circle of Magi is reinstated. Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility than ever before, even if all true power lies with the new Divine

I have to wonder why people seem to be missing the bolded part. It's clearly not going back to the way it was just before the rebellion; it's a try to get back to and improve a system that appeared to be in balance for several hundred years. The problem before was much due to nothing keeping templars in control as well, but Viv seems to think she can take that role. And according to post-trespasser, it seems to work - for the time being.

As said, I think this focuses too much power to not only a role, but to a person as well. But I also think that the choices given here when selecting a Divine are quite good in that there's no true good choice, and that all have strengths and weaknesses.

[Daerog]

Vivienne is one of my favorite characters in DAI. I have her as Divine in my canon. She's the best choice in my opinion as well.

[kimgoold]

Had Nice Leliana as Divine in my first game, after Trespasser was worried she would be murdered

 

Vivi no way, she is to much like Morrighan and Anora - all they want is power and really don't care who they hurt or kill to get it

 

Now Cassandra as Divine I liked but she didn't really change the Chantry's faults and she just reinstated the Circles and Templars and thats just going to implode again.

 

Read Wiki and finally got Hardened Leliana as Divine; my favourite outcome. Princess McStabby will drag the Chantry and the populace into forbearance and acceptance of the other races of thedas kicking and screaming. I just know my dwarven and Elven HoF's would be proud.

[Xilizhra]

While I ultimately support Leliana's world-view (given that the real Chantry is based purely on clear bigotry), Cassandra makes a great point in the sense that Justinia could only do so much. 

 

Viv is not a bad choice to run a political institution, but, just like with Leliana, it's too much change at one time. 

Maybe not Justinia, though frankly I think she lacked the moral fortitude for it. But most of her opposition with any clout was killed when the Conclave exploded. Now is the perfect time for Leliana.

[sniper_arrow]

The way I see it:

 

Leliana is a SJW's wet dream. Mage freedom? Check. Making other races join the Chantry? Check. 

 

Vivienne would make her Divine status more of a political position than ever. 

 

Cassandra would mix tradition with change. Though how far she will push for change while retaining tradition remains to be seen.

[Marshal Moriarty]

You clearly don't understand faith at all if you don't see the problem here. Just look at the real world, and look at how glacial the pace of reform in the Church has been on practically anything. The divide between those who want to bring in more up to date, common sense reforms that are more in tune with the times and those believe that the written word of the scriptures and the accepted interpretation *must* be adhered to come what may, has left the Church in deadlock for centuries.

 

And hand waving it away with 'Oh but you're the leader, they'd just accept whatever you say' is also nonsense. Pope Francis is the most respected Pope for a long, long time and that respect extends beyond those who share his faith in many cases. More than that, he is one of the more forward thinking and open minded of Popes that the church has had, but he can't and hasn't simply brought in reams of new reforms because 'He Da Bossman'. Because that's not how it works anywhere outside of the most autocratic, tyrannical states.

 

And please don't try to justify anything with Inquisition's idiotic plot. You being the Herald of Andraste, despoite the fact you can be completely dismissive and vitriolic towards the Chantry is and always has been foolish. Your character and either Vivienne or Leliana would provoke religious riots trying to make these kinds of reforms and voicing such opinions. Inquisition is presenting a ridiculous notion - that liberal reform is possible, if you gather all the conservative elements together, nuke them, and then install ultra liberal reformists at the very top to completely overhaul the system. No matter what happened at the conclave, enough dissenting voices will (and do) remain. The Chantry was not in the habit of sending witch hunters to kill people who had dissenting voices (the clerics in Lothering massively disapproved of Leliana's interpretations of the Chant, but they didn't do anything to her). But neither are they just going to stand by and just let someone say 'You know... I think what Andraste *meant* to say was...'

 

Given the extremely hostile reaction in general towards the Chantry (opinion always seems massively against them in just about every thread they are mentioned in), it is perhaps understandable that so many support these ideas. And I'm all for reform too - just not in this kind of silly 'Wave a magic wand and hey presto - liberal values for all'. I've said many times that Bioware cheapens its worlds and the issues in its games by pulling this kind of crap - making you the leader and so you can just use your adulation to artifically make everyone okay with massive social changes that fit your view of how things should be.  Wow, how fortutious that all opposition to you has been wiped out and nobody else is coming forward - guess we'd better step in, save the world and use that to institute a radical leftist agenda...

 

Its chilidish, wish fulfillment and its unworthy of Bioware. How is anyone supposed to take any of this seriously, or how are they supposed to make sensible and relevant observations on important issues when they keep pulling this kind of thing? But in Inquisition, the only way to get sensible and measured reform is to support Cassandra, who lacks the drive, desire and charisma to be an effective Divine. And as many others have said, if these candidates actually had the qualities to be Divine, they would have been good candidates to be Inquisitor.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I kinda like all the permutations, save unhardened Leliana. Reforming an institution like the Chantry with peace and love is just silly.

 

I still think my favorite is Cassandra, even if I imagine her hating the job. Murderpope Leliana is too unstable, and Vivienne might set too dangerous a precedent of tying so much power in the Divine's personal hands.

[Vit246]

*snip*

 

*shrug*

Well, after Bioware's promise in DA2 for us to "Rise to Power", obviously they felt they had to overcompensate by giving you the power to boss around the Grey Wardens and to be a big influence in electing the next Pope. Never mind the whole "upstart uppityness" about the whole package. An organization at the age of a newborn baby being able to throw its weight around kingdoms and empires that have had 900 years worth of a headstart. A figure who is proclaimed to be the next Messiah and nobody really feels threatened by this upstart heretic who's upsetting the traditional balance of power and dictating the politics. 

 

Plus Bioware's a Canadian. They're bleeding hearts, y'know.

[sniper_arrow]

You clearly don't understand faith at all if you don't see the problem here. Just look at the real world, and look at how glacial the pace of reform in the Church has been on practically anything. The divide between those who want to bring in more up to date, common sense reforms that are more in tune with the times and those believe that the written word of the scriptures and the accepted interpretation *must* be adhered to come what may, has left the Church in deadlock for centuries.

 

And hand waving it away with 'Oh but you're the leader, they'd just accept whatever you say' is also nonsense. Pope Francis is the most respected Pope for a long, long time and that respect extends beyond those who share his faith in many cases. More than that, he is one of the more forward thinking and open minded of Popes that the church has had, but he can't and hasn't simply brought in reams of new reforms because 'He Da Bossman'. Because that's not how it works anywhere outside of the most autocratic, tyrannical states.

 

And please don't try to justify anything with Inquisition's idiotic plot. You being the Herald of Andraste, despoite the fact you can be completely dismissive and vitriolic towards the Chantry is and always has been foolish. Your character and either Vivienne or Leliana would provoke religious riots trying to make these kinds of reforms and voicing such opinions. Inquisition is presenting a ridiculous notion - that liberal reform is possible, if you gather all the conservative elements together, nuke them, and then install ultra liberal reformists at the very top to completely overhaul the system. No matter what happened at the conclave, enough dissenting voices will (and do) remain. The Chantry was not in the habit of sending witch hunters to kill people who had dissenting voices (the clerics in Lothering massively disapproved of Leliana's interpretations of the Chant, but they didn't do anything to her). But neither are they just going to stand by and just let someone say 'You know... I think what Andraste *meant* to say was...'

 

Given the extremely hostile reaction in general towards the Chantry (opinion always seems massively against them in just about every thread they are mentioned in), it is perhaps understandable that so many support these ideas. And I'm all for reform too - just not in this kind of silly 'Wave a magic wand and hey presto - liberal values for all'. I've said many times that Bioware cheapens its worlds and the issues in its games by pulling this kind of crap - making you the leader and so you can just use your adulation to artifically make everyone okay with massive social changes that fit your view of how things should be.  Wow, how fortutious that all opposition to you has been wiped out and nobody else is coming forward - guess we'd better step in, save the world and use that to institute a radical leftist agenda...

 

Its chilidish, wish fulfillment and its unworthy of Bioware. How is anyone supposed to take any of this seriously, or how are they supposed to make sensible and relevant observations on important issues when they keep pulling this kind of thing? But in Inquisition, the only way to get sensible and measured reform is to support Cassandra, who lacks the drive, desire and charisma to be an effective Divine. And as many others have said, if these candidates actually had the qualities to be Divine, they would have been good candidates to be Inquisitor.

 

You could easily say that Bioware is incapable of writing engaging stories that have real meat and bones in them, and this is one scenario.

[Gervaise]

Cassandra was the only one I thought remotely credible with respect to the lore and history of Thedas in terms of actually being voted in, regardless of how I felt on the issue.  However, I did feel that her more measured approach to reform would have had the greatest chance of long term success.   She admitted that there had been failings on the part of the Seekers to prevent abuses within the Templar order.   She also did seem to want the truth known regarding the Rite of Tranquility and its connection with the Seekers but didn't want to rush into offering the "cure" until potential side-effects were known.  (Besides which there wouldn't have been many Tranquil left thanks to the Venatori)   She also was in favour of the truth being known about Ameridan.    She was willing to question her own assumptions and motivations; she was willing to listen to others, have her opinions challenged and to debate the issues in a civilised way.    These seemed good qualities for a future Divine, even if she could be a bit abrupt at times.

 

Why would they consider Leliana?    She was the Divine's bard and dirty tricks merchant.     I'm sure Lambert would have spread it about that she was implicated, along with Justinia, in the mage rebellion.    Justinia had not been around long enough to get large numbers of liberal clerics into leading positions or even lesser ones.    There had been doubts about the validity of her appointment to the office, there had already been an attempt on her life prior to the Conclave and it is likely that the truly conservative clerics wouldn't have shown support in turning up at the event, sending lesser deputies to vote against anything lenient the Divine might put forward.  The only way she could have risen to power or stay there would be by using manipulation and threats of violence, even as a softened Divine.    The idea that she would just sweet talk everyone into acceptance just isn't credible in the setting.    On a personal level I disliked the number of times she would advocate concealing the truth or acting in an underhanded and frankly immoral way.     Some examples: She was advocating tricking the villagers at Red Crossing into accepting the Dalish peace offering, thereby negating the reason it was given; she was advocating buying off the Dalish clan to conceal the truth about Ameridan; she was advocating having a woman's husband be murdered by the Inquisitor (assassin spec) simply so she could have her lover and retain her wealth and position.     Not the sort of person to be leading the faith considering the Chant/Maker specifically objects to lies and murder.

 

As for Vivienne, I was gobsmacked she could ever be considered a valid candidate.    No matter what her connections were at court or how much she spoke out in favour of the Chantry and Circles, she is a mage.   Voting her in would invalidate every bit of Chantry history in the south and totally undermine their credibility.  As Dorian says, it makes him feel like he is at home; just without the blood magic.    It just wouldn't happen. 

 

On the other hand, since I despise the Chantry as an Institution, since I feel it has perverted the true teaching of Andraste and promoted a false version of history concerning the prophet herself, I prefer Leliana as Divine because her actions are most likely to bring the organisation crashing down, with Vivienne coming a close second.  

[Tidus]

Vit246,Of course  the Inquisition can throw their weight around. The Chantry fears the Inquisitor and who in their right mind would cross Sister  Nightingale? She's not a pussycat that can be shoved around and those that dare cross her ends up very dead.

 

But,as we see in Trespasser the Fereldens  wants the Inquisition to disband and the Orlesians  wants to control the Inquisition.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Did you forget how you are the Herald of Andraste and everyone takes your actions as signs from the Maker? Vivienne explicitely tells you that everyone is looking for a sign from the Maker and view what you do as a sign of what the Maker wants.

 

This is how the Divine choice is justified in-lore as your actions are seen as a sign for the Grand Clerics of what the Maker wants. Ergo, if you are pro-mage, people start thinking the Maker is pro-mage and thus they elect pro-mage Leliana because that's what they think the Maker wants.

 

 

Did people forget that conversation?

 

Also, note that this is the same religion where people think the Maker is helping them despite their whole belief outright saying the Maker has abandoned humanity.

^^This basically. Most religions started with some magical figure doing tricks of magic and having people believe that they were the chosen one of God. Jesus made water into wine, walked on water, resurrected himself, Moses parted the red seas and freed the jewish slaves, ect, ect. Now in Thedas, rifts opened left and right unleashing demons unchecked and most of the nations are too preoccupied fighting each other to care. To the average peasant, one could interpret it as judgment day, that the Maker was punishing them for something. And here comes the Inquisitor with magic to defeat the demons, close the rifts, have powerful organizations like mages, templars, grey wardens, spies all over thedas, flock to their banner. The Inquisitor was believed to be in contact with Andraste and given the Mark, went into the Fade and stopped a nightmare demon from consuming the Grey Wardens, and we should doubt the values of the Inquisitor's if they coincide with next Divine wouldn't hold some influence? If you saw someone just save the world with unprecedented magical powers from demons and the devil and they think your values about treating mages and non-humans are **** and all that bleeding heart stuff is good, sure there would be some resistance but the impartiality of that resistance would be in doubt since they have to question if that faith in their values to resist all that is nothing but zealotry instead of faith. What if the Inquisitor, from the perspective of a witness to all the miracles they accomplished, actually is an agent of the Maker, what then? Then you're not being faithful to doctrine, your actively ignoring it in favor of being a heretic.

[Gervaise]

It the Inquisitor was that influential and was seen a being a sign from the Maker, how come 2 years later they were able to be demoted so easily?     I could understand a bit once they had lost the mark but the knives were out even before then.     So either the Inquisitor and Inquisition are a sign of the Maker's favour, in which case you go up against them at your peril, or they are not.   Oddly enough Divine Leliana is one of those advising you to stand down and disband the organisation; although admittedly she does say you will probably be more effective working from the shadows.   Still it does seem that as Divine she doesn't feel she needs your organisation any more.   Of course all the Divine's know the truth about who helped you in the Fade, so in the case of Leliana or Vivienne I wouldn't be surprised if they were the ones who started the movement go get you removed; Vivienne in particularly wouldn't want anyone else vying with her for power.

[Sports72Xtrm]

It the Inquisitor was that influential and was seen a being a sign from the Maker, how come 2 years later they were able to be demoted so easily?     I could understand a bit once they had lost the mark but the knives were out even before then.     So either the Inquisitor and Inquisition are a sign of the Maker's favour, in which case you go up against them at your peril, or they are not.   Oddly enough Divine Leliana is one of those advising you to stand down and disband the organisation; although admittedly she does say you will probably be more effective working from the shadows.   Still it does seem that as Divine she doesn't feel she needs your organisation any more.   Of course all the Divine's know the truth about who helped you in the Fade, so in the case of Leliana or Vivienne I wouldn't be surprised if they were the ones who started the movement go get you removed; Vivienne in particularly wouldn't want anyone else vying with her for power.

And Andraste was betrayed by men and handed over to the Tevinters. It's not unheard of for religious figures to be subdued by politics.  The reasoning for doing so could be interpreted in a myriad of ways. If the Inquisitor wanted, they probably could have fought it but the South would be divided by civil war and the Inquisitor knows the truth that they weren't chose by Andraste even if they have been using it as propaganda. As for Lel and Viv saying they don't need the Inquisition anymore, maybe that's true... Even with well intentions, knowing there are Qunari and Solas spies in the Inquisition puts the Divine at risk.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vit246,Of course  the Inquisition can throw their weight around. The Chantry fears the Inquisitor and who in their right mind would cross Sister  Nightingale? She's not a pussycat that can be shoved around and those that dare cross her ends up very dead.

 

...you don't watch the middle east much, do you? There's, like, 5 such conflicts going on there right now. People standing against, undermining, and fighting vastly more powerful and more firmly established institutions and persons is positively banal.

 

Leliana (and the rest) aren't really in danger of losing their seat as Divine to political opposition within the Chantry- they're in danger of losing Chantry influence over significant parts of the populace entirely. Vivienne has her anti-mage rebels, Cassandra has the extreme wings on both sides, and Leliana attempts to use political targetting for what is actually a widespread and popular disagreement.

 

Eliminating the opposition leadership doesn't end, or even prevent, grass-roots rebellion either. Like Moriarty says, power vacuums don't work like that- particularly when it comes to values, policies, and traditions with wide grass-roots support. Politics isn't a game of champions and winner-takes-all- when people feel their lives and values are disregarded too much, they'll take matters into their own hand.

 

Leliana doesn't need to worry about being assassinated by the masses for letting mages go free and unrestricted. She needs to worry about villages taking it upon themselves, without any directing authority, to self-organize and murder any mage who overstays their welcome (which may be none). You could have entire regions where a mage passing through alone and staying in the wrong place could mean knives in the dark, poison in the drink, or mobs.

 

If common people take protection from mages into their own hand, then you'll have a real problem, because there is no good solution. If it works, you have a precedent that threatens to be copied by other villagers, without any unifying political figure to negotiate or walk them down. If it doesn't, and a mage kills the attackers in self-defense, the self-defense will be irrelevant to calming the fears of those afraid they aren't being protected from mages. If the Chantry and Inquisition get involved in punishing the mundanes (or, context dependending, mages), they'll be drawing themselves into a side of a peasant-mage conflict. And if they do nothing, then the side(s) that perceived themselves as wronged will perceive themselves as abandoned, while the actors will continue.

 

And, of course, if the Inquisition or Templar equivalent is created to body-guard mages and accompany them at all times when outside of mage-enclaves, then a major aspect of the post-Circle reforms is rolled back

 

This is why the political schisming of the Chantry matters, especially for Leliana. Removing the political rivals from the board won't help if or when large parts of the board become effectively beyond Chantry influence. If Leliana takes doctrine into her own hands for her own values, others will too, and one of the main uniform and unifying elements of Thedas will no longer be uniform or unifying.

[Sports72Xtrm]

...you don't watch the middle east much, do you? There's, like, 5 such conflicts going on there right now. People standing against, undermining, and fighting vastly more powerful and more firmly established institutions and persons is positively banal.

That's pretty much the world. You think if America or Russia conquered the middle east there would be peace? No, because some other country will take that as a threat to their power and wage war to check the imperialist country.

 

 

Leliana (and the rest) aren't really in danger of losing their seat as Divine to political opposition within the Chantry- they're in danger of losing Chantry influence over significant parts of the populace entirely. Vivienne has her anti-mage rebels, Cassandra has the extreme wings on both sides, and Leliana attempts to use political targetting for what is actually a widespread and popular disagreement.

Pretty sure Leliana has a vast army of spies working for her and the Friends of Red Jenny who appreciate her using the Chantry to help the disenfranchised. And we still don't know what happens to the templars in Leliana's ending. Do they still work for the Chantry, does the Chantry still control the Lyrium trade? If so, that also gives the Chantry some more leverage. Leliana and the Chantry are hardly toothless.

 

 

Eliminating the opposition leadership doesn't end, or even prevent, grass-roots rebellion either. Like Moriarty says, power vacuums don't work like that- particularly when it comes to values, policies, and traditions with wide grass-roots support. Politics isn't a game of champions and winner-takes-all- when people feel their lives and values are disregarded too much, they'll take matters into their own hand.

Someone always comes in to fill in the void of the power vaccuum. The Circles led by Viv or the College. And without Chantry interference, perhaps the royal monarchs of the region could actually exert their influence instead of being blackmailed or being a puppet of a foreign religous figure colluding with the Empress of Orlais. I say that's a win, for better or for worse.

 

 

Leliana doesn't need to worry about being assassinated by the masses for letting mages go free and unrestricted. She needs to worry about villages taking it upon themselves, without any directing authority, to self-organize and murder any mage who overstays their welcome (which may be none). You could have entire regions where a mage passing through alone and staying in the wrong place could mean knives in the dark, poison in the drink, or mobs.

 

If common people take protection from mages into their own hand, then you'll have a real problem, because there is no good solution. If it works, you have a precedent that threatens to be copied by other villagers, without any unifying political figure to negotiate or walk them down. If it doesn't, and a mage kills the attackers in self-defense, the self-defense will be irrelevant to calming the fears of those afraid they aren't being protected from mages. If the Chantry and Inquisition get involved in punishing the mundanes (or, context dependending, mages), they'll be drawing themselves into a side of a peasant-mage conflict. And if they do nothing, then the side(s) that perceived themselves as wronged will perceive themselves as abandoned, while the actors will continue.

Since when has Leliana not done anything. She's a bard and she can teach the Chantry to be bards. "We let nobles decide who to blame. We are just the enablers of the game." A bard must know history so she does not repeat it. She tells the tales but is never part of them. She watches but remains above what she sees. She inspires passions in others and rules her own. If Leliana colludes with the wronged party to reveal evidence of who was the wrong party, she'll have political leverage over the muggles who killed the mage, or enlist the mages to attack the murderers and make the mages look righteous because of it gaining good will no matter the outcome. I'd still call that influence.

 

 

And, of course, if the Inquisition or Templar equivalent is created to body-guard mages and accompany them at all times when outside of mage-enclaves, then a major aspect of the post-Circle reforms is rolled back

I'm sure in time the free mages can learn protect themselves, the Dalish have and they are in diaspora. And if Cassandra is serious about doing the Maker's work, perhaps she would find an ally with the free mages.

 

 

This is why the political schisming of the Chantry matters, especially for Leliana. Removing the political rivals from the board won't help if or when large parts of the board become effectively beyond Chantry influence. If Leliana takes doctrine into her own hands for her own values, others will too, and one of the main uniform and unifying elements of Thedas will no longer be uniform or unifying.

 

If the Chantry changes hearts and minds, it has the ability to exert influence. Order will be restored, it is the natural state of the world to fill in the void of the power vacuum.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Regime and instutional change like this simply does not work. Adopting a mindset of 'If we just remove the bad people, and put nice people in charge who seem to support the right agendas, everything will be okay' has failed again and again and again and again the world over, throughout history. It inevitably leads to collapse and period of rebuilding, where some kind of compromise has to be re-established. Because you can't just impose ideology, it has to be sea change over time, achieved by constant campaigning, and education to tell people *why* it would be a good thing to adopt your reforms, and how you planned to do it.

 

Simply saying that people are free and should co-exist, because that's the right thing to do, has no currency whatsoever. Look at the issue with Elves and their presence in human society. They are firmly segregated, by mutual choice (Kirkwall's Alienage has a note explaining that the elves don't actually have to live there, but when they do try to settle outside the Alienage, humans burn down their houses and attack them). In Denerim, elven rights are at the back of the queue in terms of Anora's agenda, and manages to get pushed even further back during the Blight when her Father tries to sell them all into slavery, because as he explains 'Its not like they have any kind of decent life here, is it?' The fact is that most people see Elves as little more than vermin, scurrying about getting into trouble and taking up space. There is no dialogue between the races for the most part, and the path to there being such understanding will be long and difficult. So yes, reform is necessary and race relations certainly need to be higher up the agenda, but you can't just clap your hands and say 'From now on, the Elves and humans are friends - because I'm the boss and I say so!' and expect things to be any different. Not unless you're willing to adopt the Qunari philosophy anyway.

 

People fear mages, they think and have been taught and have seen that mages bring trouble, are trouble and go looking for trouble in all kinds of ways that the common man thinks only crazy people would do. Varric is mostly of this opinion, and he's about as laid back and liberal as you can get. He's willing to take people as he finds them, but admits that mages are often dangerous and go messing about with stuff that no right minded person would ever think of. So if even Varric has issues with them, how do you think the hard working, hard drinking man on the street is going to feel if he's suddenly told that mages are completely free to mingle and live amongst them? After the sky has just been ripped open and an army of mages tried to kill them all? Shortly after a mage uprising with chantries destroyed etc etc? There is no real understanding of mages, beyond the general feeling that its all unnatural dangerous business that decent folk need to be avoid. You will only change people's minds through education, measured integration of mages into society and through positive role models working to improve people's understanding. And even then it will takes decades at best before things really start to improve. There are no silver bullets for things like this.

 

Reform does need to come, but the people can only take so much strain. After everything they have been through, they want peace and normality for a while, with no wars, no riots, no factions tearing at other in political or racial squabbles. Changing everything they believed in, and bringing in radical reforms that will inflame tensions from the highest pillars to the grass roots levels, is not going to achieve anything like that. It'll lead to chaos, as the Chantry and the followers of the faith in general splinter in factions and protest groups. And amongst those who know of her, Leliana will never be accepted as Divine. Justinia had a hard time finding acceptance because of her background - Leliana is practically a celebrity amongst the nobles of Orlais, with a very specific and ominous reputation. And if she is acting like Mafia boss Murder Pope, that's even more ridiculous.

 

Bioware are serial offenders at over simpliying complex issues. Remember Mass Effect 3, and the Genophage? Where you could support the Krogan (who had not 1 but 2 fan favorite characters supporting them, along with the much hyped Krogan female Eve and who practically had the ME team standing behind them cheering whenever they were on screen) or the Salarians... who had some pantomime villain of an old crone who was auditioning for Nastiest Person Who Ever Lived, and who you could almost hear 'BOOO! HISSSS!; every time she spat something at you.

[Tidus]

Dean the young, You sound like a Templar or Lord Seeker that hates mages.

 

The brutality of the Templars in the Circle is what cause the uprising. Any thing bad was the mage fault and the Seekers and Templars would deal harshly with any mage they thought was remotely guilty. Never mind the Templars murder,rape,beat and made mages tranquil for any or no reason and in the mean time The Chantry looked the other way and continued to preach fear and hatred toward the mages. 

 

As Divine Vivienne would rebuild the Circles, add  watch dog Templars and that would lead to another revolt.

 

 

As far as Elves, yup, the Chantry preaches hatred and racism toward the Elves. 

[sniper_arrow]

Dean the young, You sound like a Templar or Lord Seeker that hates mages.

 

The brutality of the Templars in the Circle is what cause the uprising. Any thing bad was the mage fault and the Seekers and Templars would deal harshly with any mage they thought was remotely guilty. Never mind the Templars murder,rape,beat and made mages tranquil for any or no reason and in the mean time The Chantry looked the other way and continued to preach fear and hatred toward the mages. 

 

As Divine Vivienne would rebuild the Circles, add  watch dog Templars and that would lead to another revolt.

 

 

As far as Elves, yup, the Chantry preaches hatred and racism toward the Elves. 

 

Wow, that's one way to describe someone while maintaining a certaining bias.

 

Take note that not all Circles had the same situation as in Kirkwall.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Wow, that's one way to describe someone while maintaining a certaining bias.

Take note that not all Circles had the same situation as in Kirkwall.

Doesn't change that a gilded cage is still a cage. Also, note that one of the arguments Templar supporters use to support the circle is also used by Dorian to justify slavery

[ModernAcademic]

Vivienne is definitely the right option if your Inquisitor wants the Chantry to endure should a new crisis appear. The role of Divine demands for a politician, not a warrior or an idealist. Vivienne is able to navigate the waters of politics with ease and will anticipate her enemies' strategy at every turn. She'll also keep the mages in check and prevent any subversive Fraternities from disrupting the Circles. 

 

However, the reason why Vivienne is unsuitable for the new Chantry is because she'll return the institution exactly to what it was. That is to say, the Chantry will repeat the same mistakes that lead to its implosion: imprison mages in towers and exert tight control over templars through lyrium addiction. Remember Meredith's iron grasp and how Orsino allowed a Fraternity of blood mages to go unchecked? That's the kind of crisis that will inevitably repeat itself.

 

(It's worth noting this is why the Trespasser epilogue states Cassandra abandons the Chantry and completely gives up trying to help it in the future. Because Vivienne stubbornly maintains the institution as it was before Corypheus, using her role as Divine for selfish political reasons. She's not acting on Southern Thedas' best interests and her indifference will eventually cost deeply.)

 

Therefore, my choice for Divine is Cassandra for two reasons. First, she knows the Chantry intimately thanks to her previous role as the Right Hand of the Divine and knows what reforms are necessary to avoid History repeating itself. Second, because she'll have the support of the Inquisition to carry on her reforms, protecting her from any life-threatening attacks from her political enemies. Even though she's no politician, she'll have the support of Leliana and Josephine somehow, who'll advise her, since friendships like these don't just disappear. Besides, the Inquisitor will also be there to advise her, as well as Mother Gisele.

[vbibbi]

Right now my canon Divine is Vivienne. This could very well change if there are significant differing results of the Divine's legacy in DA4, but my feeling is that all three candidates will have much the same effect.

 

Vivienne seems best suited to a powerful political appointment. Leliana has proven to be too reliant on others to form her identity, and Cassandra is the farthest thing from a politician. Both would be good as high ranking members within the Chantry, but the Divine needs to answer to no one and be willing to make tough decisions without second guessing herself.

 

Plus, I think Vivienne being a mage is the most significant result of any of the Divines. This early on we don't know how lasting any edicts the Divines pass will be, but we do know that Vivienne is the first (publicly acknowledged) mage Divine in the history of the Chantry. Even if she personally didn't improve the lives of Circle mages significantly, she will have set a precedent that mages are no longer barred from positions external to the Circle. This could allow for mages to be allowed into different types of roles other than researchers in the Circles, Grey Wardens, or apostates.