127 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I agree with Leliana's ideals the most of the candidates, but I unfortunately don't think that she would realistically be able to achieve most of them. The DAI epilogues make her rule out to be fairly easy going, assassination attempts aside, but realistically her extremely liberal views would be seen as heretical to many conservative Andrasteans and could lead to a church schism like the Reformation (but in reverse). She is trying to change too much too quickly; such widespread change is not accomplished in one generation.

 

Vivienne has been a politician since entering the Circles. She knows how to compromise, when to play her cards and when to hold them. Her opinions might not be the most liberal, especially to contemporary real life, but I think she knows how best to achieve what she wants successfully. The Divine doesn't hold unlimited power; we see in Asunder that the Divine is only as powerful as the templars and Seekers allow her to be.

The templars and Seekers are no longer a factor, at least on the In Hushed Whispers path. And the Inquisition, if it exists, will be as Leliana's ally. Leliana might not have been able to accomplish that much under ordinary circumstances, but the PR boost from the Inquisition is one of the major factors that lets her get so much done.

[Dean_the_Young]

A few assassination attempts at her life doesn't indicate her reforms aren't working. If they aren't making attempts at your life, your not important enough to kill. If they want her dead, that means she's a threat and that her reforms are actually working, which would necessitate a message of force.

 

Whether Leliana's reforms are working or not is something that can only be evaluated over time and from a distance with - a perspective we don't have. That is why judgements are premature- we don't know if they're working, because we haven't seen them uniquely succeed or endure at any significant scale.

 

 

 

The whole discussion is moot, because we mostly know how it works.

If mages were allied: mages ride the wave of public acceptance from aiding the Inquisition to get the College of Enchanters working without pushback from the populace.

If templars were recruited: there are so few mages left alive that any practical effect from Leliana's policies would not be pronounced at all for some time.

The only place it gets murky is if the mages were conscripted, in which case they were part of the Inquisition until they suddenly weren't. That might be claimed to cause issues of chaos (though I really doubt it will), but I never fail to be confused by people who keep bringing up the "mages as allies" ending as if it wasn't already explained.

 

What do you know, Xil's making claims based on supposition, not lore.

 

Didn't you just lambast someone in another thread for doing that?

 

Dean,If you argue with Vivienne about mages  you will see her real colors come out. She hates the rebel mages and Fiona and condemns  the Inquisitor for allowing them to be full allies without Templars as watch dogs. 

 

You do know before leaving the Circles to purge the rebel mages they killed innocent mages of all ages that remained in the Circle as well as the tranquil. This comes out  in the story line.

 

Think on this..The Chantry says the mages must be closely watched by their thug Templars and then the Chantry turn a blind eye on their thug Templar  watch dogs. In a way that Templar that knocked out the Sister in Val Royeaux showed the Templars  violent colors.. 

 

I honestly have no clue what point you're trying to make, because what you seem to be arguing against and what I said look nothing alike.

 

I never said Vivienne likes the rebel mages. That doesn't mean she isn't a reformist- it just means she thinks the mage rebellion was wrong. The two are far from incompatible.

 

Yes, I am aware the rebel mages committed fratricide of the insufficiently radical mages who couldn't be cowed, compelled to join, or run away. I'm also aware Fiona turned a blind eye to the massacre of the tranquil who had been in her charge. Neither is relevant to the point I was making.

 

The Chantry losing control of the Templars was established as far back as DA2. That's pretty far removed, and irrelevant, to what I was saying about people feeling a lack of mage control and taking it into their own hands going forward.

[vbibbi]

The templars and Seekers are no longer a factor, at least on the In Hushed Whispers path. And the Inquisition, if it exists, will be as Leliana's ally. Leliana might not have been able to accomplish that much under ordinary circumstances, but the PR boost from the Inquisition is one of the major factors that lets her get so much done.

 

True, Leliana is in a position to effect change on a wider scale than her predecessors. But the ability to enact doctrinal changes doesn't equate to the masses agreeing with the changes or obeying them. It could just as easily lead to resentment and dissent.

[Xilizhra]

What do you know, Xil's making claims based on supposition, not lore.

 

Didn't you just lambast someone in another thread for doing that?

Am I, now?

 

The Inquisition's mages – the former rebels led by Grand Enchanter Fiona – are left with a choice.  When Leliana disbands the Circles, they leave the Inquisition and reform the College of Enchanters as a new order. The College, they say will allow mages of the South to gather in peace and seek new solutions to age-old problems. For the moment, it appears to be working – mages are enjoying unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas.

While I confess that "from aiding the Inquisition" may be supposition, I figured that I could use Occam's Razor for that one. And since no new information from Trespasser contradicts it, it can be assumed to still be valid.

 

With the Inquisition at an end as it once had been, the few surviving mages who had served it found themselves with nowhere to go. The Divine had declared the Circle over, but something needed to take its place. Vivienne led many of the old guard to form a new Circle, surprising absolutely no one when it immediately elected her as its Grand Enchanter. The remainder of the Inquisition's veteran mages formed a rival organization, the College of Enchanters.

So in this case, the surviving mages appear to have all been working for the Inquisition.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Am I, now?

 

 

 

While I confess that "from aiding the Inquisition" may be supposition, I figured that I could use Occam's Razor for that one. And since no new information from Trespasser contradicts it, it can be assumed to still be valid.

 

 

 

So in this case, the surviving mages appear to have all been working for the Inquisition.

Did people suddenly forget my post how people think your actions are the views of the Maker?

[d1ta]

I think every Divine has their own merits and risks sticking on them and wether you agree with either one, I guess it will depend largely on what kind of person the inquisitor is.

A certain Divine is an optimum choice for a certain Inquisitor. I've got quizzies that fall in place neatly with any of them (and yes, that includes Viv)

My devout Andrastrian Qun Dude fits well with Divine Leli the Sweet because she promise changes and opens up the religion for everyone. While sudden changes in culture/tradition may bring forth a lot of problem, he's more than willing to back up his chosen divine with muscles.

My wide-eye and naive elven hunter puts Viv on the sunburst throne. She never felt insecure about mages and magics before because the Keeper and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of the clan set up good example. But after Corypheus, all things magic becomes too icky and too much for her. The only mage she feels she could trust is Viviene due to her views that magic should be suprevise and practiced with caution.
Maybe in the minority here, but I kinda like how she grabs on to her power XD she leashed them tight under her reign.

Divine Cassandra fits well with my Lavellan 1st. Because both want changes in their system/culture while still preserving the good aspects of their respective traditions. Reform, take and make things change gradually. And I love this dynamic duo pairing because one is a muggle and the other is mage. They are good friends that have a long history of working together in reaching a common goal.


As for personal agenda? ... well who doesn't have a personal agenda? Even my laidback inquizzy has one and that is 'avoid responsibility'
Only difference is wether said person wants to keep it hidden from public knowledge or share it with the world.

[Dean_the_Young]

Am I, now?

 

 

Yup.
 

 

If mages were allied: mages ride the wave of public acceptance from aiding the Inquisition to get the College of Enchanters working without pushback from the populace.

If templars were recruited: there are so few mages left alive that any practical effect from Leliana's policies would not be pronounced at all for some time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I confess that "from aiding the Inquisition" may be supposition, I figured that I could use Occam's Razor for that one. And since no new information from Trespasser contradicts it, it can be assumed to still be valid.

 

 

An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and never has been. Your argument on the post-DAI effects are based on conjecture neither claimed by the game or supported by Tresspasser itself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Did people suddenly forget my post how people think your actions are the views of the Maker?

 

It was in that post about the codex, right?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I agree with Leliana's ideals the most of the candidates, but I unfortunately don't think that she would realistically be able to achieve most of them. The DAI epilogues make her rule out to be fairly easy going, assassination attempts aside, but realistically her extremely liberal views would be seen as heretical to many conservative Andrasteans and could lead to a church schism like the Reformation (but in reverse). She is trying to change too much too quickly; such widespread change is not accomplished in one generation.

 

Vivienne has been a politician since entering the Circles. She knows how to compromise, when to play her cards and when to hold them. Her opinions might not be the most liberal, especially to contemporary real life, but I think she knows how best to achieve what she wants successfully. The Divine doesn't hold unlimited power; we see in Asunder that the Divine is only as powerful as the templars and Seekers allow her to be.

 

I feel like these are exceptional circumstances and enormous changes are a possibility at this time. I think people focus too much on how fast political change has been pushed in the real world, and even then underestimate. Thedas has gone through extreme upheaval in the past decade. A blight that could have threatened to wipe out the world was headed off in extreme record time by a small group that Leliana was part of, even potentially lead by her future spouse. When the veil tore open, again Leliana was there and with a figure the people see as divinely gifted. These sorts of apocalyptic events aren't something the real world has to deal with. The real world is also much more science and logic driven, less likely as a vast majority to see things like that as divine. Under the right circumstances, Leliana has been a part of and is visibly supported by the greatest heroes of the time and was at their side during their greatest triumphs. I think it would be much more difficult for the people to turn on someone like that than someone like Vivienne.  

 

One benefit of Leliana's changes is that they're so broad spectrum that there's almost something for everyone. Massive new populations are openly welcomed, allowing Leliana to reach out to large populations for support that wouldn't have otherwise been available. Even human men benefit from this, which would likely give pause for the human population rebelling against her, at least to some extent. I think the circumstances of Leliana's history, the balance of her reforms and her overall more balanced approach than Vivienne's in dealing with people will make her a better candidate. I know Vivienne was successful at working the Orlais nobles to some extent, but honestly I didn't see much evidence that she was this great politician. The circle fell apart while she was there, let's not forget, and she doesn't seem at all prepared to deal with anyone she would see as below her station except but to mock them. I just don't see that she has enough experience or flexibility for something like this. 

[Melyanna]

All the Divines are the same due to Trespasser, so remember that this discussion is only one of headcanon. There's no need for anyone to get hostile or accusatory.

This. Thank you.

[Lunatica]

All the Divines are the same due to Trespasser, so remember that this discussion is only one of headcanon. 

Pick your Divine.

Spoiler

[Patricia08]

Pick your Divine.

Spoiler

 

It's the third one on the right the one with the black tie and the black glasses  . 

[vbibbi]

I feel like these are exceptional circumstances and enormous changes are a possibility at this time. I think people focus too much on how fast political change has been pushed in the real world, and even then underestimate.

I'm not sure I'm understanding this. Comparing Thedas to the real world is inaccurate, and we can't compare fast political change in the real world to...Leliana's changes happening quickly? I would argue that real world political change is not fast, at least not authentic change. In the U.S., the Civil Rights Movement was in the '60's and we had desegregation, decriminalizing of interracial marriage, increased rights for all citizens. But anyone looking at modern America would not see these technical changes being accepted by everyone. Much of the political dialogue right now reflects the long held resentment certain demographics have had against other demographics. Just because it's no longer publicly accepted to be overtly racist doesn't mean there are no racists anymore.
 

Thedas has gone through extreme upheaval in the past decade. A blight that could have threatened to wipe out the world was headed off in extreme record time by a small group that Leliana was part of, even potentially lead by her future spouse. When the veil tore open, again Leliana was there and with a figure the people see as divinely gifted. These sorts of apocalyptic events aren't something the real world has to deal with.

 

We have in game evidence that people aren't going to straight up accept radical change because of the events of the game. If we help Brother Burkel establish the Chantry in Orzammar, he ends up being killed by a mob and there's threats of an Exalted March on Orzammar. This was because his Chantry turned out to be popular and started to threaten large amounts of dwarfs converting to Andrasteanism.

 

We also have the Inquisitor, the person who closed the Breach twice, walked out of the Fade alive twice, and killed one of the original darkspawn, being held in a kangaroo court in Trespasser out of fear of their power. If Ferelden/Teagan were truly afraid of the resulting uproar from the masses if he shuts down the Inquisition, I think he would have acted a bit differently. But it's two years after the Breach; people are concerned about picking up their lives and moving on, not starting new cults of the Inquisitor. They would rather get back to the status quo than use the recent events as an excuse to reform society.

 

Now, this could have been implemented well. If the Freemen hadn't been depicted as cartoon misguided villains following red templars and instead been allowed to have actual valid grievances against Orlais' nobility and social structure, we could have ended that quest line by conscripting them against Corypheus and provided limited rights once the threat had gone. A Divine Leliana would work to continue these rights while a Divine Vivienne might have tried to suppress them or go back on the agreement.

 

But instead, we see no lasting changes in society apart from mages and templars.

 

The real world is also much more science and logic driven, less likely as a vast majority to see things like that as divine. Under the right circumstances, Leliana has been a part of and is visibly supported by the greatest heroes of the time and was at their side during their greatest triumphs. I think it would be much more difficult for the people to turn on someone like that than someone like Vivienne.

 

Yeah but human nature is human nature. As I pointed out above, no matter how "logical" modern society is (debatable) individuals are still flesh sacks filled with irrational emotions. It's no longer PC to say racial slurs. But racial profiling is still a thing.

 

If we're comparing Thedas to "less logical" times in the real world, the masses could just as easily claim that she's a demon in human form (and Trespasser epilogues indicate that this isn't too far from the truth in some world states) or a blood mage, or any number of bad things. How else could a mortal woman defeat a Blight within one year, rise up to be the Left Hand of the Divine, and then soon after the Divine's death take over that role? And magic is a real thing in Thedas, so the argument that Leliana used blood magic to become Divine is no less realistic than to say she's chosen by Andraste. More realistic, IMO, given that the Herald being sent by Andraste is heretical to the Chantry and is meant to be a unique occurance.

 

One benefit of Leliana's changes is that they're so broad spectrum that there's almost something for everyone. Massive new populations are openly welcomed, allowing Leliana to reach out to large populations for support that wouldn't have otherwise been available. Even human men benefit from this, which would likely give pause for the human population rebelling against her, at least to some extent.

 

Again, not really how humans work. Just because a law might benefit me, that doesn't mean I don't mind if it also benefits a demographic that I'm against. People aren't rational, they don't want people they don't like to get good things, even if they also benefit. There's a common phrase for it, cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

And just because you or I might consider one of Leliana's changes to be beneficial to everyone doesn't mean that people of Thedas will agree with that. The nobility might be just peachy with how they're treated by the Chantry and see no need for changes. Any change for them means possibly giving something up so that someone else can gain something. Why would those on top (and in power) want to change their situation at all?
 

I think the circumstances of Leliana's history, the balance of her reforms and her overall more balanced approach than Vivienne's in dealing with people will make her a better candidate. I know Vivienne was successful at working the Orlais nobles to some extent, but honestly I didn't see much evidence that she was this great politician. The circle fell apart while she was there, let's not forget, and she doesn't seem at all prepared to deal with anyone she would see as below her station except but to mock them. I just don't see that she has enough experience or flexibility for something like this.

I'm not arguing that Vivienne is a better candidate, I'm arguing that I think she would be a more effective candidate in the long run. More of her doctrines would last past her death, whereas I predict that a lot of the changes Leliana makes would collapse soon after her death, or the death of her successor if she has a hand in finding someone who shares her views.

 

Plus, how is the Circle system collapsing any indication of Vivienne's political prowess? She has nothing to do with Fiona's rebellion and is not able to control the opinions of every Circle mage in Thedas. If she had been able to single handedly stop the mage rebellion she wouldn't have been a good politician, she would have been a god. The fact that she still has control over the loyalist mages some templars is a better indication of her political abilities.
 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this. Comparing Thedas to the real world is inaccurate, and we can't compare fast political change in the real world to...Leliana's changes happening quickly? I would argue that real world political change is not fast, at least not authentic change. In the U.S., the Civil Rights Movement was in the '60's and we had desegregation, decriminalizing of interracial marriage, increased rights for all citizens. But anyone looking at modern America would not see these technical changes being accepted by everyone. Much of the political dialogue right now reflects the long held resentment certain demographics have had against other demographics. Just because it's no longer publicly accepted to be overtly racist doesn't mean there are no racists anymore.
 

 

We have in game evidence that people aren't going to straight up accept radical change because of the events of the game. If we help Brother Burkel establish the Chantry in Orzammar, he ends up being killed by a mob and there's threats of an Exalted March on Orzammar. This was because his Chantry turned out to be popular and started to threaten large amounts of dwarfs converting to Andrasteanism.

 

We also have the Inquisitor, the person who closed the Breach twice, walked out of the Fade alive twice, and killed one of the original darkspawn, being held in a kangaroo court in Trespasser out of fear of their power. If Ferelden/Teagan were truly afraid of the resulting uproar from the masses if he shuts down the Inquisition, I think he would have acted a bit differently. But it's two years after the Breach; people are concerned about picking up their lives and moving on, not starting new cults of the Inquisitor. They would rather get back to the status quo than use the recent events as an excuse to reform society.

 

Now, this could have been implemented well. If the Freemen hadn't been depicted as cartoon misguided villains following red templars and instead been allowed to have actual valid grievances against Orlais' nobility and social structure, we could have ended that quest line by conscripting them against Corypheus and provided limited rights once the threat had gone. A Divine Leliana would work to continue these rights while a Divine Vivienne might have tried to suppress them or go back on the agreement.

 

But instead, we see no lasting changes in society apart from mages and templars.

 

 

Yeah but human nature is human nature. As I pointed out above, no matter how "logical" modern society is (debatable) individuals are still flesh sacks filled with irrational emotions. It's no longer PC to say racial slurs. But racial profiling is still a thing.

 

If we're comparing Thedas to "less logical" times in the real world, the masses could just as easily claim that she's a demon in human form (and Trespasser epilogues indicate that this isn't too far from the truth in some world states) or a blood mage, or any number of bad things. How else could a mortal woman defeat a Blight within one year, rise up to be the Left Hand of the Divine, and then soon after the Divine's death take over that role? And magic is a real thing in Thedas, so the argument that Leliana used blood magic to become Divine is no less realistic than to say she's chosen by Andraste. More realistic, IMO, given that the Herald being sent by Andraste is heretical to the Chantry and is meant to be a unique occurance.

 

 

Again, not really how humans work. Just because a law might benefit me, that doesn't mean I don't mind if it also benefits a demographic that I'm against. People aren't rational, they don't want people they don't like to get good things, even if they also benefit. There's a common phrase for it, cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

And just because you or I might consider one of Leliana's changes to be beneficial to everyone doesn't mean that people of Thedas will agree with that. The nobility might be just peachy with how they're treated by the Chantry and see no need for changes. Any change for them means possibly giving something up so that someone else can gain something. Why would those on top (and in power) want to change their situation at all?
 

I'm not arguing that Vivienne is a better candidate, I'm arguing that I think she would be a more effective candidate in the long run. More of her doctrines would last past her death, whereas I predict that a lot of the changes Leliana makes would collapse soon after her death, or the death of her successor if she has a hand in finding someone who shares her views.

 

Plus, how is the Circle system collapsing any indication of Vivienne's political prowess? She has nothing to do with Fiona's rebellion and is not able to control the opinions of every Circle mage in Thedas. If she had been able to single handedly stop the mage rebellion she wouldn't have been a good politician, she would have been a god. The fact that she still has control over the loyalist mages some templars is a better indication of her political abilities.
 

 

I don't like splitting up quotes because it's too much effort, so I'm just going to piece some replies to this. XP

 

I'm not saying that the real world enacts social change quickly, I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying the stability of the real world allows people to be more complacent and change comes slower. People in the turmoil of Thedas's current state are more malleable, and I think they would be especially malleable towards those that have shown the ability to keep them safe in recent history. 

 

There are signs of social change sticking, as well. Having a mage as Divine is arguably a larger progression, in general, than Leliana allowing Elves to be a larger part of the Chantry or for men to have a larger role. Even with Vivienne having some more traditionalist beliefs, the public's willingness to accept her as Divine is, in itself, a massive indicator of their willingness to accept major social change. Accepting the Inquisition, which may be lead by a Qunari, Dwarf, or other "unpopular" race, possibly also a mage, to be accepted into the Chantry is also a sign of that progressive thought. In Thedas the humans treat Elves as an inferior species, but they're TERRIFIED of mages. In every instance, mages are given more freedom and, in the case of Vivienne, given a great position of power. If those changes are accepted, then the issue of Elves being a little more accepted, men being a bigger part of the Chantry, and another canticle being canonized are comparatively pretty small.

 

I don't agree that the collapse of the Circle has no reflection on Vivienne. She was present and could have influenced those in the Circle towards stability over rebellion, but she failed to do that. You say she'd "had to have been a god", but characters in this world do more all the time. Fiona could bring about that rebellion, which was put in motion by Anders. Your PC characters can influence leader after leader during the games. You have multiple companions that go on to rule whole countries. Influencing one Circle is not really that much to ask, if I'm to believe this is supposedly one of the greatest political minds in Thedas. I don't really see why you would need to be "a god". It's just shifting the opinions of a small demographic of people. Somebody convinced them to rebel, somebody could have convinced them not to. That's "how humans work". Also, I just still don't see the evidence that she's someone that could win over the common people, who are in all likeliness the ones most likely to take issue with her being a mage and to be skeptical to begin with.

[vbibbi]

I don't like splitting up quotes because it's too much effort, so I'm just going to piece some replies to this. XP

 
I'm going to keep splitting just because it's easier for my thought process and to keep the discussion clear in my head. (btw what I do is just change the text box to code, then just use [ quote] [ /quote] to break up sections, then change the text box back to standard format.)
 

I'm not saying that the real world enacts social change quickly, I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying the stability of the real world allows people to be more complacent and change comes slower. People in the turmoil of Thedas's current state are more malleable, and I think they would be especially malleable towards those that have shown the ability to keep them safe in recent history.

 

Okay I see what you're saying. This touches on your point below, though, so I'll just say that the Chantry has been mostly unchanged since its founding hundreds of years ago. If there is to be any lasting change (which will be answered in DA4 or DA5) I think it would be because Thedas has slowly been changing its attitudes toward the role of the Chantry. The only way I see all of Leliana's changes coming about and lasting is if she purges the Chantry of conservatives who openly disagree. Ruthless!Leliana I could see doing this. Otherwise, we'll start seeing reactionary secret cults that prefer the "old ways" of practicing Andrasteanism while publicly accepting all of Leliana's reforms. Think DAO Haven.

 

There are signs of social change sticking, as well. Having a mage as Divine is arguably a larger progression, in general, than Leliana allowing Elves to be a larger part of the Chantry or for men to have a larger role. Even with Vivienne having some more traditionalist beliefs, the public's willingness to accept her as Divine is, in itself, a massive indicator of their willingness to accept major social change. Accepting the Inquisition, which may be lead by a Qunari, Dwarf, or other "unpopular" race, possibly also a mage, to be accepted into the Chantry is also a sign of that progressive thought. In Thedas the humans treat Elves as an inferior species, but they're TERRIFIED of mages. In every instance, mages are given more freedom and, in the case of Vivienne, given a great position of power. If those changes are accepted, then the issue of Elves being a little more accepted, men being a bigger part of the Chantry, and another canticle being canonized are comparatively pretty small.

 

City elves are already nominally part of the Chantry. But the city elf origin shows that humans don't really think much of that. There is even a Chantry mother present at the wedding and she doesn't do anything to stop Vaughan from interrupting the ceremony and causing a disturbance. Theoretically she could have left and gotten some templars or city guards to come back and protect the elves, but it seems as if she just leaves, knowing full well what's going to happen.

 

I don't think it's realistic or believable for this type of attitude (in the capital of a country, not a backwater town) to change within 50 years. People who have first hand interactions with Leliana or the Inquisitor or HOF might convert or believe anything Divine Leliana tells them to, but people who are only hearing about these events through secondary sources aren't as guaranteed to change their way of thinking.

 

And while I agree that having a mage Divine is a sign of change, it's a sign that the Chantry leadership decided the masses wouldn't raise a fuss more than the masses consciously decided to elect a mage Divine. The public has no say on who's the next Divine. And if 90% of Chantry leadership hadn't died at the Conclave, I don't think Vivienne would ever have been nominated as a candidate. It's more to do with lack of candidates and the devastation in the public's life taking precedence over protesting a Divine's election.

 

As Sera says, when you're a little person, it's all "ahhh! hungry! ahhh! cold!  ahhh! magic!" They're still scared of mages, but they're also scared of dying of starvation or exposure. Which is the more relevant issue for them?

 

I don't agree that the collapse of the Circle has no reflection on Vivienne. She was present and could have influenced those in the Circle towards stability over rebellion, but she failed to do that. You say she'd "had to have been a god", but characters in this world do more all the time. Fiona could bring about that rebellion, which was put in motion by Anders. Your PC characters can influence leader after leader during the games. You have multiple companions that go on to rule whole countries. Influencing one Circle is not really that much to ask, if I'm to believe this is supposedly one of the greatest political minds in Thedas. I don't really see why you would need to be "a god". It's just shifting the opinions of a small demographic of people. Somebody convinced them to rebel, somebody could have convinced them not to. That's "how humans work". Also, I just still don't see the evidence that she's someone that could win over the common people, who are in all likeliness the ones most likely to take issue with her being a mage and to be skeptical to begin with.

Well, being a PC in a computer game honestly already elevates the character to god status, IMO. There is no way that a non-PC in most games would be able to accomplish all that the player/PC does. Part of that power fantasy thing.

 

What Fiona and Anders do, however, are not single handedly go against popular opinion, as you're suggesting Vivienne needs to do if she can claim to be a good politician. Fiona and Anders were catalysts at the right time in society and tapped into the unhappiness and unrest of a powerful minority (mages) to enact change. And as I mentioned above, these societal issues have been brewing for hundreds of years since the founding of the Circles and Chantry.  It was going to boil over at some point soon anyway, and Fiona and Anders were just the individuals who lit the spark for the tinder.

 

It's Pandora's Box. Once it's opened, there is no way of closing it again. Vivienne possibly could have stopped the unrest prior to Kirkwall, but then she can't be everywhere at once. She can't prevent all disgruntled mages from taking action, she can only oversee her Circle and react when something happens.

[Nic Mercy]

Here are my thoughts:

 

I've always felt that Vivienne was good for stability but bad for progress. She maintains the status quo at a time when change is not only needed, but when change is most realistic to happen.

 

Cassandra is probably the most moderate of the choices but she seems ill suited to the role. As mentioned before, she's more a woman of action and has expressed her dislike of politics numerous times.

 

Hardened Leliana is too ruthless for my liking. She brings change at a time when change is needed most and change is most likely to happen but does so with far too much of an iron fist (or knife in the back).

 

Softened Leliana is my favorite choice. She brings change at a time when change is needed most and change is most likely to happen. She may seem liberal and very willing to "break a few eggs to make an omelette", but when it comes to a minority being oppressed and denied the same rights as others simply for being different, then that's the kind of person you need to take the reins IMO.

 

In short, Vivienne does nothing to help mages gain the same rights and freedom that other people enjoy. Cassandra while probably being the most palatable choice since she recognizes and is willing to make efforts to improve the situation for mages but is conservative enough to take it slow, is also the least likely person to actually want the job (which may well make her the "best" person for it?). Leliana, hard or soft, is the best agent for change that won't take decades. Softened Leliana is the better of the two obviously, since her tactics are less ruthless.

 

I guess it all comes down to how you view your fellow people. Are you ok with a minority suffering as second class citizens, unable to enjoy all the same rights and freedoms you do? Then Vivienne's your girl. Are you sympathetic to the plight of a minority, but also concerned about too much change too quickly? Cassandra probably fits your bill. Or can you truly imagine how it must feel to be a minority waiting for change that comes so slowly they don't live to see it or worse never comes at all, and believe that's not only wrong but inhumane? Then Leliana is the choice that will see that issue addressed.

 

I'm less concerned about "stability" or "volatility" than I am about seeing an oppressed people given the same rights and freedoms everyone else has, but that's just me. I may be a bit biased being a minority myself, but I will say it's a bit easy to say "we have to look at the bigger picture before we give those minorities equal rights. We cant bring change too fast" when you aren't the minority in question. I GUARANTEE if anyone here was the one being denied the same rights as others they'd fight just as hard for change, and change that happens NOW not in decades to come where maybe a few generations down the line MIGHT get to enjoy it. Our lives aren't long enough to wait for change at that pace.

[vbibbi]

...

I guess it all comes down to how you view your fellow people. Are you ok with a minority suffering as second class citizens, unable to enjoy all the same rights and freedoms you do? Then Vivienne's your girl. Are you sympathetic to the plight of a minority, but also concerned about too much change too quickly? Cassandra probably fits your bill. Or can you truly imagine how it must feel to be a minority waiting for change that comes so slowly they don't live to see it or worse never comes at all, and believe that's not only wrong but inhumane? Then Leliana is the choice that will see that issue addressed.

 

I'm less concerned about "stability" or "volatility" than I am about seeing an oppressed people given the same rights and freedoms everyone else has, but that's just me. I may be a bit biased being a minority myself.

 

You're glossing over the bloody path she has to take to get there, and as I've said, there's no guarantee that any of her reforms will last beyond her lifetime. It's one of my gripes with Bioware storytelling, where the paragon path is always right and no consequences ever occur even though realistically it shouldn't always have a happy ending.

 

Of course granting equal rights to everyone is best. But when word gets out about the rumors of the Inquisitor (and consequently the Divine) was involved with elven and Qunari spies, are the common people going to be quite as accepting of the new Divine's reforms?

 

It's like how the ending of DAI can have the Circles abolished and everything is wonderful. And a mere two years later in Trespasser no matter what, the Circles are back. Huge institutions and societies can't be changed so suddenly over such a short period of time.

[Nic Mercy]

You're glossing over the bloody path she has to take to get there, and as I've said, there's no guarantee that any of her reforms will last beyond her lifetime. It's one of my gripes with Bioware storytelling, where the paragon path is always right and no consequences ever occur even though realistically it shouldn't always have a happy ending.

 

Of course granting equal rights to everyone is best. But when word gets out about the rumors of the Inquisitor (and consequently the Divine) was involved with elven and Qunari spies, are the common people going to be quite as accepting of the new Divine's reforms?

 

It's like how the ending of DAI can have the Circles abolished and everything is wonderful. And a mere two years later in Trespasser no matter what, the Circles are back. Huge institutions and societies can't be changed so suddenly over such a short period of time.

 

I'm not glossing over it. I simply believe it's necessary. Keeping a group of people treated as "less than" the rest of the populace, solely for being born differently, is anathema to me and, in my opinion, any and every action should be taken to rectify that injustice as quickly as possible, regardless of how bloody it might be to accomplish.

 

I don't believe it's ok to leave a group of my fellow man as 2nd class citizens just because it's "too much work and will cause too much upheaval" for any length of time, let alone decades for change that might never come. Better to charge ahead, deal with the consequences and bring those oppressed citizens into the fold as quickly as possible. It's wrong to leave them languishing in limbo just because its inconvenient to do the right thing.

 

When you see members of your friends and family live and die never knowing what its like to enjoy the same rights and freedom that you enjoy, it's hard to see things any other way. And again... I don't believe anyone would be "understanding" about taking things slow for change if they were actually members of the group being oppressed. Only those who aren't affected by it can have the audacity to hold such a position IMO.

[Xilizhra]

You're glossing over the bloody path she has to take to get there, and as I've said, there's no guarantee that any of her reforms will last beyond her lifetime. It's one of my gripes with Bioware storytelling, where the paragon path is always right and no consequences ever occur even though realistically it shouldn't always have a happy ending.

 

Of course granting equal rights to everyone is best. But when word gets out about the rumors of the Inquisitor (and consequently the Divine) was involved with elven and Qunari spies, are the common people going to be quite as accepting of the new Divine's reforms?

 

It's like how the ending of DAI can have the Circles abolished and everything is wonderful. And a mere two years later in Trespasser no matter what, the Circles are back. Huge institutions and societies can't be changed so suddenly over such a short period of time.

For one thing, it's not the real Circle. It's basically Vivienne giving the Circle's name to a rival College. Her little power play doesn't have Chantry authority behind it; the ****** just wants to play dictatrix.

Secondly, nothing is accomplished that isn't fought for, and letting the status quo continue is unconscionable. This is why I decided to have the Inquisition be the Divine's guard force.

[Lord of War]

Seriously. "Moderate negotiation" or whatever will never succeed on its own. It can't. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Seriously. "Moderate negotiation" or whatever will never succeed on its own. It can't. 

 

Well, unless we ignore all the times in history it has.

 

But no, we must, because if it can, then a lot of other rationalizations to excuse unnecessary actions then threatens to deligitimize favored actions and policies.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Seriously. "Moderate negotiation" or whatever will never succeed on its own. It can't. 

This. Seriously, Cassandra can't successfully negoitiate unless she has outside help like the Inquisitor and even then, she has to make concessions to her goals. Cassandra only succeeds alone when using military force

[Jewlie Ghoulie]

I like all three options as Divine. (unpopular opinion I suppose)

[vbibbi]

I'm not glossing over it. I simply believe it's necessary. Keeping a group of people treated as "less than" the rest of the populace, solely for being born differently, is anathema to me and, in my opinion, any and every action should be taken to rectify that injustice as quickly as possible, regardless of how bloody it might be to accomplish.

 

I don't believe it's ok to leave a group of my fellow man as 2nd class citizens just because it's "too much work and will cause too much upheaval" for any length of time, let alone decades for change that might never come. Better to charge ahead, deal with the consequences and bring those oppressed citizens into the fold as quickly as possible. It's wrong to leave them languishing in limbo just because its inconvenient to do the right thing.

 

When you see members of your friends and family live and die never knowing what its like to enjoy the same rights and freedom that you enjoy, it's hard to see things any other way. And again... I don't believe anyone would be "understanding" about taking things slow for change if they were actually members of the group being oppressed. Only those who aren't affected by it can have the audacity to hold such a position IMO.

 

You seem to be putting words into my mouth and want to paint my stance as anti-human rights. "Leliana's changes are not going to realistically be effective in the long run" does not equal "trying to bring equal rights is too hard!"

 

More like Leliana's changes could have a backlash and bring about a conservative reactionary faction into power which would destroy all that she had done. And we don't actually see how she implements her plans. Does she just open the doors to the Circles and say "be free, mages! live your lives!" and then let the people who have no life skills make their way in the world? Into the public where many are still afraid and suspicious of magic and mages, since a mage created the Breach, Tevinter Venatori mages were his henchmen, and caused rifts to appear where demons poured out.

 

Just because Leliana might abolish Circles and disband the templars doesn't mean the public suddenly is no longer afraid of mages or mages know how to survive in the real world. And it doesn't guarantee that mages are trained how to avoid blood magic or demonic possession, since they were taught those skills in a controlled environment.

 

Vivienne knows how the Circle system works and how to protect mages from themselves and others. She is shown to loosen restrictions on mages and prevent the Circles from being prisons anymore. It's not unreasonable to assume that under her rule mages are able to come and go from Circles after they prove they are in control of their magic. That's what Vivienne was able to do.

[Xerrai]

You seem to be putting words into my mouth and want to paint my stance as anti-human rights. "Leliana's changes are not going to realistically be effective in the long run" does not equal "trying to bring equal rights is too hard!"

More like Leliana's changes could have a backlash and bring about a conservative reactionary faction into power which would destroy all that she had done. And we don't actually see how she implements her plans. Does she just open the doors to the Circles and say "be free, mages! live your lives!" and then let the people who have no life skills make their way in the world? Into the public where many are still afraid and suspicious of magic and mages, since a mage created the Breach, Tevinter Venatori mages were his henchmen, and caused rifts to appear where demons poured out.

Just because Leliana might abolish Circles and disband the templars doesn't mean the public suddenly is no longer afraid of mages or mages know how to survive in the real world. And it doesn't guarantee that mages are trained how to avoid blood magic or demonic possession, since they were taught those skills in a controlled environment.

Vivienne knows how the Circle system works and how to protect mages from themselves and others. She is shown to loosen restrictions on mages and prevent the Circles from being prisons anymore. It's not unreasonable to assume that under her rule mages are able to come and go from Circles after they prove they are in control of their magic. That's what Vivienne was able to do.

No one is sure how the free College operates. But it is safe to assume that it is no simple "every Mage for himself" policy.
Be it Bright Hand or a simple College of Enchanters, it seems all incantations of free mages make thier own institution of training and housing mages.

Basically a Circle without Chantry/Templar oversight.

But we have to wait till next game to find out the specifics.