261 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabraxal]

Good points, I agree. Specifically looking at the power mechanic, it is an ambitious and abstract mechanic to use, but I think if Bioware couldn't implement it well they should have looked at other options. E.g. the Hinterlands minor side quests do make sense before the Chantry will treat us seriously enough to parley with, in that we're building the reputation of the Inquisition as a source of relief and stability in times of crisis. The quests are generally not that interesting to me and aren't fun to replay for the xth time, but they make sense in context.
 
But then we come to WEWH or HLtA where we need power points to unlock these quests. The open-ended nature of power points means that we could just keep closing rifts on the Storm Coast, recruit the Hessarian Blades to be our agents on the coast, do a bunch of smaller fetch quests which net power points without actually increasing our military might or providing resources. Yet once we close the nth rift, we're suddenly able to lay siege to Adamant or merit an invitation to Halamshiral.
 
I would rather have had to do some operation chain in order to access the quests, and then perhaps any additional power points from unrelated quests help determine how successful we are in those quests.
 
For HLtA, we either need to do some quest for the noble who provides us the siege engines to gain her favor, we have to secure siege engines that are held by bandits (in Griffon Wing Keep, maybe?), or perform an operation that scouts out the weaknesses in Adamant and provide this info to Leliana's spies to sneak into the fortress and open the gates for us. The game is already set up very smoothly to provide the military/diplomatic/subterfuge methods of conducting the Inquisition. But instead, we can do any unrelated quest which nets power points and then somehow reach the exact same point in besieging Adamant. No real options.
 
For WEWH, we could have needed to either free Celene's troops from that Citadel Corbeau, helped Gaspard's troops clear the ramparts, or helped the Dalish tribe enough that they gave us an agent. We would then get invitations to the ball from Celene, Gaspard, or Briala, depending on our choices, or if we had done some/all of the quests, we could choose which invitation to accept. Have WEWH change based on which "sponsor" we begin with, but still let us choose the ruler during the quest based on our actions.
 
A lot of customization of quests and player choice was neglected in order to create more expansive maps to explore. This isn't engine limitations from old gen preventing the full on warfare elements that were planned, these are narrative elements which were lower priority than being able to claim 100+ hours of gameplay and 100+ number of quests.
 

 
What honestly irritates me is when people who are big fans of DAI take the attitude that any flaws others present to the game are purely personal preference and discount them immediately. Rather than take the attitude of "I can see why someone might prefer that element to have been done differently/how it has been done in previous games" they take the attitude of "well that's your preference but this game is objectively wonderful."
 
I am willing to concede that DAI is a good game that does a lot of things right, but that there is a list of issues that I think can be improved upon. I'm not unilaterally stating that the game is awful. But the tendency a lot of "defenders" on these boards has is to dismiss any and all criticism and talk down to the critics. Maybe they're tired of defending the game or of feeling attacked by critics, in which case I'm sorry that it's gotten to that point. But don't maintain the double standard that criticisms are just someone's opinion and those who liked the game are objectively correct in all of their opinions.

Except one group isn't continually posting about how their preference is an actual objective fact... But then you are just going to continue pulling this BS card of being "discounted" when your side yet again loses 'my opinion is fact!" Argument. At least change ip the tactics because it is beyond old seeing you and others retreat to the same tired line time after time.

[Majestic Jazz]

Until the company provides us with more than one role to play, they're unworthy of the idea that they produce roleplaying games.

So I guess by that definition, the RPGs of the 90s on the SNES and PS1 were not RPGs cause they didnt provide us with more than one way to play.

A Link to the Past and Final Fantasy VII are not RPGs I guess....

[Majestic Jazz]

Except one group isn't continually posting about how their preference is an actual objective fact... But then you are just going to continue pulling this BS card of being "discounted" when your side yet again loses 'my opinion is fact!" Argument. At least change ip the tactics because it is beyond old seeing you and others retreat to the same tired line time after time.

I am not saying that it is fact that DAI is a bad game, that is just my opinion. However, it IS fact that a good number of owners were dissapointed with the game and it would be foolish for Bioware to ignore the concerns and criticisms when going into DA4.

It might not be a fact that the IQ was dull and DAI was filled with lifeless worlds full of fetch quest. But it is fact that many gamers voiced concerns over these issues.

[dreamgazer]

I am not saying that it is fact that DAI is a bad game, that is just my opinion. However, it IS fact that a good number of owners were dissapointed with the game and it would be foolish for Bioware to ignore the concerns and criticisms when going into DA4.

 

A good number of owners have been disappointed with every game they've released, for legitimate reasons.  

 

And, like good old BioWare, they'll (over)compensate for the concerns and criticisms in the next game. 

[Xilizhra]

So I guess by that definition, the RPGs of the 90s on the SNES and PS1 were not RPGs cause they didnt provide us with more than one way to play.

A Link to the Past and Final Fantasy VII are not RPGs I guess....

They're JRPGs. It's not really the same thing.

[Pasquale1234]

Good points, I agree. Specifically looking at the power mechanic, it is an ambitious and abstract mechanic to use, but I think if Bioware couldn't implement it well they should have looked at other options. E.g. the Hinterlands minor side quests do make sense before the Chantry will treat us seriously enough to parley with, in that we're building the reputation of the Inquisition as a source of relief and stability in times of crisis. The quests are generally not that interesting to me and aren't fun to replay for the xth time, but they make sense in context.

One benefit of there being so many is that you can pick and choose to some degree.
 

I would rather have had to do some operation chain in order to access the quests, and then perhaps any additional power points from unrelated quests help determine how successful we are in those quests.

That's just another form of gating though, right?

Do you suppose part of their strategy might have been to minimize required quests?

I think they take a fair bit of flack about mandatory quests that people don't like for whatever reason (fade sequence, deep roads in DAO). The power system, as implemented, gave you more freedom to choose to do the quests that were more appealing to you while avoiding some things that were not.

Some of your other suggestions sound interesting. I really can't address them specifically, as I've not yet finished a complete playthrough of the game.
 

A lot of customization of quests and player choice was neglected in order to create more expansive maps to explore.

To me, having expansive maps to explore is a great way for me to customize my playthrough and exercise my choice - at least wrt what content I want to experience when. It's like a smorgasboard where I get to choose the Inquisition's priorities instead of doing whatever the devs assign next.

I get the feeling that you would have liked more orchestrated (for want of a better term) quests instead of the exploration.

[Drakoriz]

why this transform into a DA conversation when we are on ME forums?????

 

And really why is the OP comparing 3 games with 0 relationships. Outside the "RPG" elements the 3 games use, but non are full RPG games.

[In Exile]

I hate to steer off topic but I will bite.

Bioware is a shell of what they once were. They seem to now be playing catch up rather than being the industry vanguard.

KOTOR in 2003 was the coming out party for Bioware. Yes, they had NWM and Baulders Gate before that but it was KOTOR that put them on the mainstream map. In 2007, Bioware finally blew off the charts with Mass Effect which really set some industry standards.

CD Projekt Red is now the new Bioware. TW3 wad their coming out party in 2015 and with Cyberpunk 2077, that will be their "Mass Effect" that blows the industry away and set new standards. Hell, both Betheada and CDPR is going against the Bioware DLC standard and actually releasing story expansions rather than than the smaller DLCs that Bioware loves to do. I mean damn, Blood and Wine is about 30 hours long and only cost $20. Many $60 games are not even 20-30 hours long!

Bioware was once known for setting industry standards in terms of gameplay. Now the only thing they are known for is ME3's ending and openly tackling social issues in their games. CDPR might not be the most politically developer, but they are pushing the envelope the same way Bioware pushed the envelope in 2003 and 2007. I mean just look at all the praise TW3 gets for the style and presentation of its sidequest.

Point is, why have faith? This isnt 2003, this isnt 2007. What ground breaking advances has Bioware brought to the industry in the past 4-5 years?

When people complained about ME3s ending Bioware tried to blame us for not seeing their vision. When people complaindd about the amount of content Triss had in TW3 compared to Yennifer, CDPR acknowleged this and did not blame the fans and did their best to address it in a patch.

I hope MEA brings back the glory, but I feel as if Bioware is concerned about other things now rather than simply making the best game.

If you were actually around when KotOR came out you'd know about the observe level of hate for having abandoned the PC gamers and having simplified the combat, abandoned race selection, and so on.

[Seraphim24]

If you were actually around when KotOR came out you'd know about the observe level of hate for having abandoned the PC gamers and having simplified the combat, abandoned race selection, and so on.

 

It's funny to me how I never read forums or anything back then, just a few dev interviews and played the game.

 

So from my perspective everything was fine.

 

In fact even now you really don't have to read these forums or things

[dreamgazer]

If you were actually around when KotOR came out you'd know about the observe level of hate for having abandoned the PC gamers and having simplified the combat, abandoned race selection, and so on.

 

Then, Mass Effect 1 received grief for being a third-person shooter. 

 

It's the same pyjak droppings over and over again. 

[Drakoriz]

If you were actually around when KotOR came out you'd know about the observe level of hate for having abandoned the PC gamers and having simplified the combat, abandoned race selection, and so on.

 

i know right????.

 

LOL i read complains about this from games back them too.

 

Is funny how every year the game that came out is really good, and one year later everyone hate it.

[Seraphim24]

i know right????.

 

LOL i read complains about this from games back them too.

 

Is funny how every year the game that came out is really good, and one year later everyone hate it.

 

Yeah honestly maybe this is just the cycle of Bio games, that's how it looks to me.

[RoboticWater]

To me, having expansive maps to explore is a great way for me to customize my playthrough and exercise my choice - at least wrt what content I want to experience when. It's like a smorgasboard where I get to choose the Inquisition's priorities instead of doing whatever the devs assign next.

I get the feeling that you would have liked more orchestrated (for want of a better term) quests instead of the exploration.

But what's the exchange rate on choice within quests and choice to do quests? I would assume that choices in deeply designed quests would allow the player to more thoroughly define their character than the "I'll do that/I won't do that" choices endemic to DA:I's quests. While the "why" for choosing to do or not do a quest may change character to character, there's little room for roleplaying once the sidequest starts (beyond what you can do in any other quest). More extensive quests let players define their unique approach to that quest's specific problem.

[vbibbi]

Except one group isn't continually posting about how their preference is an actual objective fact... But then you are just going to continue pulling this BS card of being "discounted" when your side yet again loses 'my opinion is fact!" Argument. At least change ip the tactics because it is beyond old seeing you and others retreat to the same tired line time after time.

 

I think you're referring to other posters in the thread, so fair enough. But I did not say that my opinion is fact, I even said that I can see many good qualities in DAI and that it's a good game. And I'm not sure how you got that I was "conceding" that I had "lost" this argument because the defenders aren't willing to bother acknowledging why others have criticisms.

 

Granted, most of these conversations come about because the critics start the argument, since there's no reason for someone without a complaint to start a thread analyzing the game's content (other than character threads, etc). But in response, I'm referring to the attitude in the rebuttal that criticism is just an opinion yet people who don't agree with that criticism are objectively correct.

 

And quite honestly it has been my experience overall, not in this specific thread, that those defending the game/Bioware generally resort to insulting the critics rather than responding to the criticism or explaining why they enjoyed the content that is being criticized. Heck, some people only post to make fun of posters and don't actually respond to the OP or the discussion being held. But because they're anti-criticism it's okay.

 

One benefit of there being so many is that you can pick and choose to some degree.
 

That's just another form of gating though, right?

Do you suppose part of their strategy might have been to minimize required quests?

I think they take a fair bit of flack about mandatory quests that people don't like for whatever reason (fade sequence, deep roads in DAO). The power system, as implemented, gave you more freedom to choose to do the quests that were more appealing to you while avoiding some things that were not.

Some of your other suggestions sound interesting. I really can't address them specifically, as I've not yet finished a complete playthrough of the game.
 

To me, having expansive maps to explore is a great way for me to customize my playthrough and exercise my choice - at least wrt what content I want to experience when. It's like a smorgasboard where I get to choose the Inquisition's priorities instead of doing whatever the devs assign next.

I get the feeling that you would have liked more orchestrated (for want of a better term) quests instead of the exploration.

 

Well, my personal playstyle has generally been to do as much content as I can in each playthrough rather than pick and choose what content to play each game. So for my style of playing, I would rather have less content that contains more diversity in it rather than more content that doesn't vary much between playthroughs. And I'm sure this is why I had less enjoyment from a lot of DAI's content than others who don't try to do a completionist run every time they play.

[Addictress]

I don't brag that my opinions on these flaws are objective fact, but I do try to give examples on why I think they are flaws, and explain the flaws with words. And I adopt an increasingly aggressive tone the more I feel drowned out by dismissive defenders who dismiss these all as preferences.

[vbibbi]

I don't brag that my opinions on these flaws are objective fact, but I do try to give examples on why I think they are flaws, and explain the flaws with words. And I adopt an increasingly aggressive tone the more I feel drowned out by dismissive defenders who dismiss these all as preferences.

 

Yes, in my experience "dismissive" of criticism is a good summary for a portion of people who loved DAI. And "aggressive" is a good summary for a portion of critics of DAI, myself included. The dismissive (and sometimes paternalistic) attitude of many defenders often ends up inflaming the aggressive crowd more. While those who bother listening to criticism, even if they don't agree with it, tend toward creating a dialogue rather than an argument.

[pdusen]

A lot of DAI fans here act like DAI was a 100% perfect game....completely flawless and thus there is NOTHING that Bioware can look to improve upon in DA4 or future Bioware titles.

 

Literally no one here acts like that, and you just provided a clear example of exactly the kind of hyperbole that people keep accusing you of.

[AlanC9]

So I guess by that definition, the RPGs of the 90s on the SNES and PS1 were not RPGs cause they didnt provide us with more than one way to play.

A Link to the Past and Final Fantasy VII are not RPGs I guess....

Yep. Whenever we define RPG, we end up either ruling out stuff that's historically been counted in the category, or ruling in stuff that hasn't been.

My take is that there isn't any there there. "RPG" has no real meaning.

[Iakus]

Yep. Whenever we define RPG, we end up either ruling out stuff that's historically been counted in the category, or ruling in stuff that hasn't been.

Historically, if you fought with swords or magic, it was an RPG.

[RagingCalgarian]

I'm really displeased by how the OP praises the Witcher 3. The game doesn't need to be made dark. It needs to be fun. 

[AlanC9]

Historically, if you fought with swords or magic, it was an RPG.

Which rules out Starflight, MegaTraveller, and so forth. X-COM too, though I'm not sure we want to rule that one in.

[FKA_Servo]

Historically, if you fought with swords or magic, it was an RPG.

That sounds like a pretty terrible definition, which means it's as valid as anything else I guess.

I stick with "game I like=RPG, shiny and valorous. game I don't like=probably an action game or something."

[Linkenski]

It's a Bioware game so yes.

 

On the flipside, it's a Mac Walters game, so no.

 

One thing Mac understands better than the other writers is the need for non-verbal cues and emotional tells in characters I think. If you look at James, he's the most backhanded character in the game I'd say. He likes to give Shepard **** or use some psychological manipulation to get free drinks. He's written in a way where there's a lot of inference to why he acts like he does but he's not just gonna spill it. Even his story about the collectors is a source of spite towards Shepard but he doesn't make a whole lot of trouble out of it but you can tell that he has an opinion he's not directly saying.

 

Of course, Mac didn't write the plot here, but I bet he has written something and now he'll be writing part 4 of an upcoming book-series for the game too, and either way he's had a lot to do in this game.

[AlanC9]

I don't brag that my opinions on these flaws are objective fact, but I do try to give examples on why I think they are flaws, and explain the flaws with words. And I adopt an increasingly aggressive tone the more I feel drowned out by dismissive defenders who dismiss these all as preferences.

As Dr. Phil says, how's that working for you?

Wouldn't increased aggressiveness just convince everyone who was being dismissive that being dismissive was the correct response all along?

[Seraphim24]

As Dr. Phil says, how's that working for you?

Wouldn't increased aggressiveness just convince everyone who was being dismissive that being dismissive was the correct response all along?

 

AlanC9 your comments are sexually stimulating.